Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

mischief

macrumors 68030
Aug 1, 2001
2,921
1
Santa Cruz Ca
dirtymatt said:
I'm willing to bed Longhorn will support EFI just fine.

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion over this one.

EFI is not a single thing like a device driver which is either supported or not. It's more like a programming language. A given implementation of EFI could certainly be written in a form that an OS it was not intended for could not use. The same is true of many "lower" programming languages and generally speaking, the "closer" you are to the hardware, the easier it is to make this differentiation stick.

Most likely Longhorn will rely on a standardized implementation of both the "hardware lock" chips mentioned in the Macbytes section and EFI to provide user data security as well as locking a particular license of Windows to that PC.

Whereas Mac OS is more likely to rely on unique EFI implementation combined with a radically customized Mobo having unique features and Intel technologies as yet unsupported by Windows and many other "PC side" Apps.
 

hookahco

macrumors regular
someone please answer this question.. apple said that they will prevent people from installing OS X on a regular PC box and im arguing with my cousin (computer genious and wintel freak) that they can make it happen.. he says OS X will be able to run on any x86 box.. so tell me this.. HOW exactly can apple prevent hackers from installing my beloved OS on a dell box??
 

mischief

macrumors 68030
Aug 1, 2001
2,921
1
Santa Cruz Ca
hookahco said:
someone please answer this question.. apple said that they will prevent people from installing OS X on a regular PC box and im arguing with my cousin (computer genious and wintel freak) that they can make it happen.. he says OS X will be able to run on any x86 box.. so tell me this.. HOW exactly can apple prevent hackers from installing my beloved OS on a dell box??

There are several methods likely to be used:

Apple has always built custom motherboards with Apple-unique firmware and drivers.

This has involved a number of proprietary ASICs including memory/bus controllers, PMU's, built in unique hardware ID signatures that provide the model, date of manufacture and serial number of the original unit.

Apple has also historically written thier own unique firmware implementations such as Open Firmware that are inaccessable to other OS's without specific rewrites (see: Yellowdog Linux).

The assumption is that Apple will combine these usual strategies with new technologies provided by Intel to build a unique mobo with unique firmware based on Intel-provided proprietary data and their own experience.
 

ShiggyMiyamoto

macrumors 6502a
Mar 29, 2004
620
31
Just outside Boston, MA.
hookahco said:
someone please answer this question.. apple said that they will prevent people from installing OS X on a regular PC box and im arguing with my cousin (computer genious and wintel freak) that they can make it happen.. he says OS X will be able to run on any x86 box.. so tell me this.. HOW exactly can apple prevent hackers from installing my beloved OS on a dell box??

As stated in a recent MR article and I quote:

Of note, the developer version of Intel-Mac OS X will not install on other PCs:
As for installing Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware, attempts to boot from the included Mac OS X for Intel disc resulted in an error message on both a Dell and off-brand PC. The message states that the hardware configuration is not supported by Darwin x86.

Tell your cousin that and show him the article... There's little to nothing that can be done to override that... The article is the most recent article at the site.
 

ShiggyMiyamoto

macrumors 6502a
Mar 29, 2004
620
31
Just outside Boston, MA.
Dude, I don't mean to be rude, but read earlier in the topic. It's been stated that OS X/x86 [/b]WILL NOT[/b] boot on a generic PC. It'll give you a message basically saying that the hardware isn't' supported by Darwin/x86. Unless you can somehow either build the exact system Apple is gonna use or if you really mod the sh*t out of the installer (which I think'll be impossible since the chipset is gonna be needed for OS X to install) it's not gonna happen... Sucks I know. I'd really like my friends to get it so they can see that the Mac OS is great and so they'd stop bashing it... But it ain't gonna happen... :(
 

steve jr.

macrumors 6502
Jul 4, 2005
332
4
Akron, OH
THANK YOU!! very nice and very informative. just make sure to keep up with the updates to questions that we don't have answers for yet.
 

DeathChill

macrumors 68000
Jul 15, 2005
1,663
90
I don't quite understand the 'hardware configuration not supported' message as I did not see that when I put the DVD in my PC. It booted up past the grey screen to a blue screen with the spinning beachball and then it reboots.
 

iQuit

macrumors 6502a
May 13, 2005
529
9
Los Angeles
They can't use the G6 name since it is alrighty copyrighted by the Pontiac corpation of GM because of the Pontiac G6, if Apple made a G6 it would take up space from the search engines of the Pontiac G6 and I don't know....do you think they will go directly to the G7? Or make an entirely new name? :confused:
 

rendezvouscp

macrumors 68000
Aug 20, 2003
1,526
0
Long Beach, California
iQuit said:
They can't use the G6 name since it is alrighty copyrighted by the Pontiac corpation of GM because of the Pontiac G6, if Apple made a G6 it would take up space from the search engines of the Pontiac G6 and I don't know....do you think they will go directly to the G7? Or make an entirely new name? :confused:

G6 will not be a problem to use since Pontiac makes cars, and the G6 would just be a processor. If you can, look up what happened with Mac OS 9 and OS9, which are much more similar than this, and you'll see that Apple was fine then. They'll be fine for G6 if they decide to use it.
-Chase
 

Jimmery

macrumors member
Jul 25, 2005
86
0
Canada
Xtremehkr said:
I think in the next two years the iMac will continue to be updated. It will probably get the G5 2.3 next and may finish with the 2.7 before going to Intel chips.

I don't see why a desktop like the iMac would get a laptop processor though, there is no need for it to use less power. Given how much heat the G5s put out, the iMac could be even more compact with an Intel processor.

Given that the iMac is not the forerunner performance, it may stay with PPC longer than Powermacs do.
This makes a lot of sense. I never really thought of it... Is it a general expectation that the iMac could be updated last? If not, when do others think the iMac would move to Intel? I'm guessing that the 'books will move first (along with the Mac mini maybe), then Powerbooks, then iMacs. As far as the eMacs go, couldn't guess...
 

greatdevourer

macrumors 68000
Aug 5, 2005
1,996
0
iQuit said:
They can't use the G6 name since it is alrighty copyrighted by the Pontiac corpation of GM because of the Pontiac G6, if Apple made a G6 it would take up space from the search engines of the Pontiac G6 and I don't know....do you think they will go directly to the G7? Or make an entirely new name? :confused:
I'm doubting they would use the name G6, or any other of the 'G's, as, iirc, G stands for Generation (of PPC). I wouldn't be suprised if they use P instead of G, as P would be Pentium, which is what the chips are
 

engjohn

macrumors newbie
May 30, 2005
5
0
Well, I have booted further than that on a "Generic PC"
I used both an Intel (915 and a 925) Chipset MB with onboard Video (one with the TPM and one without), an 3.2 HT enabled CPU 1GB of RAM, SATA HD and a borrowed DVD.

I was able to pass the hardware compatability screen mentioned, I got to the blue screen and saw the spining pinwheel of death...
It just sat there like it was looking for something it could not find.

The keyboard would lock up, but the mouse worked fine.

???

Oh well...

Of note, the developer version of Intel-Mac OS X will not install on other PCs:
As for installing Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware, attempts to boot from the included Mac OS X for Intel disc resulted in an error message on both a Dell and off-brand PC. The message states that the hardware configuration is not supported by Darwin x86.
 

DeathChill

macrumors 68000
Jul 15, 2005
1,663
90

clicker

macrumors newbie
Sep 18, 2005
2
0
NeXTStep could be installed on any regular PC box.
I cannot see any reason why Apple wants to lock Mac OS X only on its own Macintel Box.
It'll give some chance for OS X to be pirated which remains
the most effective marketing way to spread a technology.
Designing special ASICS for Mac OS X in order to lock it
is more costly than integrating regular PC components.
Better keep making big money on selling musicware.
Apple only needs to offer assistance
for his own intel box and some certified parts.

...we can just wait and see.
 

RacerX

macrumors 65832
Aug 2, 2004
1,504
4
clicker said:
NeXTStep could be installed on any regular PC box.
Not really... NEXTSTEP was limited to hardware that it had drivers for, which was a far cry from any regular PC. I keep hardware compatibility list for NEXTSTEP on my site. Both NEXTSTEP 3.1 (the first version for x86) and NEXTSTEP 3.3.

I cannot see any reason why Apple wants to lock Mac OS X only on its own Macintel Box.
Well I suggest that you consider the fact that NeXT never had a version of NEXTSTEP that ran on x86 systems while they were making their own hardware.

NeXT shut down their hardware division on February 10, 1993 (Black Tuesday) and didn't start shipping the first version of NEXTSTEP for x86 hardware until May 25, 1993.

Further, when Apple licensed the Mac OS in the mid 90's it generated a massive loss of revenue for the company that came close (closer than any other point in Apple's history) to putting Apple out of business.

:rolleyes:

I guess those who really don't care if we have Macs (or the Mac OS) around in 10 years don't care that making the Mac OS run on standard PCs would hurt Apple. They only see the benefit to themselves.
 

clicker

macrumors newbie
Sep 18, 2005
2
0
RacerX said:
Not really... NEXTSTEP was limited to hardware that it had drivers for, which was a far cry from any regular PC. I keep hardware compatibility list for NEXTSTEP on my site.
I've checked the nextstep for intel processors hardware compatibility guide
as far as I can see the supported hardware were regular components at that time
and most of the configuration of the main PC vendors were supported too.
Beside, as it is mentioned, the list contains only tested systems.
I installed nextstep on a few no-name PC based on intel processor at that time
and I dont remember having much trouble doing so.

Harware compatibility still remains true with any system.
You still need to check for the availability of a driver for Mac OS X
before thinking of getting a third party device.

I agree that both Next (and BeOS)
had their OS ported and available to other platforms
only after giving up the manufacture of their own hardware.
And for sure the Mac OS licence in the mid 90
was an unfortunate experience.

But imagine that Mac OS would have been available
and licenced to any x86 or 68xxx platform as Microsoft did with Windows
I like to believe the nowadays market positions would have been reversed.
The profit that can be made by selling huge amount of OS licence
can largely counterbalance the loss of profit on hardware.

Apple "enemy" remains Microsoft not Intel.
Apple's market slice drops from 25% to 5% against 90% for Microsoft.

If Apple want to have a chance to get a bigger piece of the cake
it'd better have its system getting widely spread.

We know that OS X can run on regular hardware.
Why spend extra effort for locking the system to Macintel Box?
Selling both hardware and software is not incompatible.
Lots of money can also be made by developing services around the system.

You will still find customers who appreciate Apple hardware design and extra integration
and would prefer to buy an Apple box rather than any alternative box.
Same as for Windows world, you still have users who prefer
to spend extra money by buying a branded PC
rather than assembling their own PC or getting a noname PC.

Look at IBM: It has been able to switch from hardware to service.
Look at Microsoft: It started with software
and now it manufactures (at loss for the moment) Xbox.
Look at Linux and BSD distribution,
one of the reason they spread, is they are available on most common platform.

I guess that sooner or later Apple's board will decide
(if not decided yet) to have OS X available on any hardware
if they foresee any extra profit.
 

CrazySteve

macrumors newbie
Jun 8, 2005
17
0
OSX on generic 86 already true

You know, OSX has already been hacked (trivial)
and it runs perfectly on generic intel x86 boxes.
Plenty of torrents flying around with dvd images
already patched (in case your processor does not
support sse3, if it does you need no patch)

I'm curious to see what the arguments of those
prophets that claimed Osx would NEVER run
on generic x86 are now. Custom ASICS, firmware, etc, etc are not a problem to any
serious cracker. PowerPC was the only problem
and now that its out of the way, the floodgates
are open.
 

twoodcc

macrumors P6
Feb 3, 2005
15,307
26
Right side of wrong
yeah i've read that quite a few people have gotten OSx86 to work on several different machines, including AMD 64. it seems that most of the programs work as well. some even say that OSx86 runs faster than a real mac. what do ya'll think about this? i personally think it's good for apple. i'm thinking of trying it out on my pc.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.