Resolved PC Workstation vs. Mac Pro

[MacPoulet]

I haven't used avid in a while, but I remember they had some pretty specific system requirements and if you deviated too far from them it would be a world of hurt. Did you verify what components they recommend?

 

[thekev]

I had always though these were expensive and hard to set up. Am I right in thinking that all the drives have to be the same brand and capacity? Either way I shall investigate thanks.

I missed this post earlier for some reason. Some of the lower end solutions are flaky and not very good, especially if you intend to raid them. As for gpu acceleration, look up the supported gpus on each piece of software. Going the PC route would lock you out of Final Cut, unless you plan on hackintoshing it. I don't view that as a good idea for professional use. As mentioned Avid has their own suggested specs for both single and dual cpu setups. It's just you picked a very expensive route when it comes to performance per dollar. CPUs and boards appropriate for dual configurations cost quite a bit more.

Good point.

I hope you're able to retire that 2008 mac pro this year. Stupid FB-dimms.

 

[Tesselator]

Thank you for the link I have seen his channel before but not this video.

Sure. I guess the message is that if you intend to oveerclock much then water-cooling is the way to go.

Personally, I would rather have multiple xeon cores and not bother with cooling and clocking at all.

 

[deconstruct60]

I don't know a great deal about putting things together I just had a quick look at what they offered and "built" something from that. That's why I posted here if anything seems odd or unnecessary I was hoping someone would tell me. So thank you for pointing those out.

I wouldn't be surprised that it is in some Windows vendors BTO ordering page. As I said Dell/HP offer this kind of odd-ball configurations. It doesn't make sense for users. It certainly heaps extra profit to the vendors. It is a effectively a "speed trap" for those who lust after cores and GHz at the same time.

Their website said I only needed a 750 watt PSU I had selected a 1200 watt at first.

If the GPU card is gong to be the only major card. If were adding another major I/O or were going with two GPGPU cards then 1200 would be better.

As for the Blu-ray drives yes I need two I copy video to Blu-ray disc and it's faster to do it on the fly if I don't happen to the original file on my system. It's easy enough to replace the optical drives on the current Mac Pro I've seen it done on YouTube I'm assuming the "New" Pro will be similar.

It is extremely likely that the new Mac Pro will loose at least one 5.25" drive bay. There are external Blu-Ray burners. If is more a question if you'd have to buy one or two external drives.

Mostly likely Apple will put those old 5.25" bay space to new use. Either:

a. new 2.5" bays ( no adapters need to put a couple of 2.5" drives into new machine).

b. move some of the 3.5" bays up. ( e.g., repurpose space for two if 3.5" drives in PCI-e card zone for something else. )

c. anorexic allocation ( space reduction. This doesn't make much sense though, if still roughly a rectangular box. ).

d. some combination of a & b. (e.g., dump both 5.25 bays for doing both)

My guess is that it is d. That Apple does a "clean sweep" of the whole Mac line up and no ODDs anywhere. Same obsessive compulsive disorder that will probably sweep Thunderbolt onto the Mac Pro too. (some of that PCI-e card zone reuse would probably go to putting in infrastructure, embedded GPU+VRAM+cooling , for Thunderbolt. )

 

[wallysb01]

If the 1650 isn't enough, the OP should probably look at 26xx parts with both sockets populated rather than one of the most expensive cpus in one with the other bare.

Right. 2x2630s cost about $1220. 1x2687W costs about $1900. Add in the markups by the vendors and its even worse.

If your workflow really makes use of all cores possible, the 12 cores at 2.6GHz will be faster than 8 at 3.4GHz.

 

[thekev]

Right. 2x2630s cost about $1220. 1x2687W costs about $1900. Add in the markups by the vendors and its even worse.

If your workflow really makes use of all cores possible, the 12 cores at 2.6GHz will be faster than 8 at 3.4GHz.

Intel shows the 2630s as having a base clock 2.3 and max turbo 2.8. They show 3.1 and 3.8 for the 2687w. Were you just figuring on average they run about those clock speeds? I just don't see why anyone would take such a jump in price points from something like a 1650 if they aren't going for 12-16 cores. Otherwise the increase in investment really outpaces the increase in performance.

 

[deconstruct60]

I just don't see why anyone would take such a jump in price points from something like a 1650 if they aren't going for 12-16 cores.

There is a very narrow set of users that are using the Xeon as a nexus point between resources with lots more cores and/or I/O. There can be multiple scalar streams to stitch together results from an substantially more massive parallel effort.

But in general, no. The very high GHz E5 2600 models are generally aimed at folks who have multiple workloads being thrown at the same box. The consolidated workload is time shared which helps defray the costs. For computers with a single human user driving the workload they would rarely make sense.

 

[Commenter]

Hi,

I'd wait.

Apple could certainly end up taking a long time to release new Mac Pros, and they could even even discontinue them, but what's looking most likely is that they'll come out with "really great", redesigned machines relatively soon:

David Pogue: New iMacs and Mac Pro's Coming "Probably in 2013" [Update] - MacRumors
Apple Spokesperson Confirms New Mac Pro Designs Likely Coming in 2013 [Update: Not iMac] - MacRumors
Apple Tells Reseller that the New Mac Pro is Arriving in Spring 2013 - MacRumors

It doesn't sound like you absolutely need to replace your current one right now, and the Xeons you're considering are a year old anyway. You could wait until the new Xeons come out this year, and if there were no signs of new Mac Pros then, just get a PC. Apple has gotten early batches of new Intel processors in the past, and I doubt they'll release these specific models after other PC makers.

The Mac Pros are very competitive with similar PCs when they are released. And that's just specs/price—the Macs are probably more reliable and even higher-performing at similar specs, and have AppleCare, so you don't have to worry about anything and are treated well. Plus the Mac Pro is much nicer (and the new one'll be even nicer).

 

[Tesselator]

Have you considered external eSATA drive boxes. Unlike Drobo, you can get four drive bay eSATA boxes that will hold up to 12TB of data, and they are cheap, about a $100, and need only a PCIe eSATA card in the Mac Pro. LaCie makes a Thunderbolt eSATA hub, expensive like all Thunderbolt at $200, but will allow access to the drive in a future Thunderbolt Mac Pro, assuming they retain PCIe expansion slots.

While this would be rolling the dice on a future Mac Pro, what I like about eSATA, which being about the same speed as USB 3.0, it doesn't use the USB controller, so there is less to go wrong. Having lost a number of LaCie drives due to their crappy bridges, my view is to keep things as simple as possible.

Good luck on making a decision. Me, it's a no brainer, Mac is it.

I had always though these were expensive and hard to set up. Am I right in thinking that all the drives have to be the same brand and capacity? Either way I shall investigate thanks.

Well Drobo is way overpriced yes. But many options are quite reasonable. Like the same functionality Drobo charges $800 for can be had for $120 to $150.

They don't have to be the same brand but then again why not?

They don't have to be the same capacity either but if you were to use a 500GB drive with two 3TB drives (for example) then for some RAID levels it would look and act as if there were three 500GB drives - wasting 2.5TB from the other drives. However some RAID levels can handle dissimilar volume sizes without the waste. It all just depends on how ya set it up and what software or controller you choose.

External RAID arrays offered by 3rd party manufacturers are usually severely inadequate as well as severely overpriced. DIY solutions can be assembled at just slightly over the cost of the drives alone and if you select the right components be faster then commercial offerings costing thousands more.

I dunno if external storage is for you tho. The major advantages of external storage are primarily three-fold.

1. The storage can be powered down when not in use - this makes for longer lived HDDs. And safer environments during electrical storms and such like that.
2. Related to 1), they can be powered off independently of the computer system making it easier to swap out drives, turn off when not needed, or whatever.
3. The storage can be connected to any machine easily. Your MacPro breaks? Just connect your other computer to the storage and you have access to it.

But if you don't need those things then the 6 available internal connections are probably enough.

If you decide to go for external storage let me know here or in a different thread (hopefully a different thread) and I can show you how you can get speeds in excess of 2 gigabytes per second for only about $250 or $300 over the cost of the drives themselves.

Setup is pretty easy all-in-all. Place the drives, connect the cables, insert the card, install the driver, done.

 

[Sophia.]

If you decide to go for external storage let me know here or in a different thread (hopefully a different thread) and I can show you how you can get speeds in excess of 2 gigabytes per second for only about $250 or $300 over the cost of the drives themselves.

Setup is pretty easy all-in-all. Place the drives, connect the cables, insert the card, install the driver, done.

I will most likely try and go down the external storage route at some point in the future. I store everything I do as raw, uncompressed files so I have a lot of data around 15 TB at the moment.

I will let you know if and when I do that's very kind of you to offer thank you.

I wish to thank everyone for your answers they have been excellent.

 

[thekev]

There is a very narrow set of users that are using the Xeon as a nexus point between resources with lots more cores and/or I/O. There can be multiple scalar streams to stitch together results from an substantially more massive parallel effort.

But in general, no. The very high GHz E5 2600 models are generally aimed at folks who have multiple workloads being thrown at the same box. The consolidated workload is time shared which helps defray the costs. For computers with a single human user driving the workload they would rarely make sense.

That could be the case with the OP's line of work in extreme cases, especially if you render on the same machine and do not distribute it to minimize storage bottlenecks and in the case of some software licensing restrictions. In some cases render nodes might have attached licensing fees or restrictions where you can run the same frame range in parallel but not set them to different non-interdependent frame ranges. Even then I could not see the logic in buying a single 2600 model unless the OP wished to populate the other later and just can't afford it today. I'm not sure how much higher intel will push the core count wars.

 

[Tesselator]

^^ Sure, just PM, email for FB me...

I have a lot of data around 15 TB at the moment.

Huh? You have 15TB of data all internally stored on your HDDs? What are you currently using for backups?

 

[Sophia.]

^^ Sure, just PM, email for FB me...



Huh? You have 15TB of data all internally stored on your HDDs? What are you currently using for backups?

FB = Facebook?

It's not all internal storage, I keep some of that data on external HDDs. I copy most things twice, if it's not stored internally and backed up on our Time Machine or Drobo N5, it's copied to two external drives (one as backup) and or to Blu-ray disc.

Costly and unprofessional yes sadly but there are only four of us working in the company. We never imagined we would win so much work. We're a relatively new company.

 

[Macsonic]

FB = Facebook?

It's not all internal storage, I keep some of that data on external HDDs. I copy most things twice, if it's not stored internally and backed up on our Time Machine or Drobo N5, it's copied to two external drives (one as backup) and or to Blu-ray disc.

Costly and unprofessional yes sadly but there are only four of us working in the company. We never imagined we would win so much work. We're a relatively new company.

It's always good practice to have some backup system regardless if it's the old method. My friend, a photographer, had a shooting session in France. When he got home in Singapore, his photos got corrupted as his HD had bad sectors or something like that. He had to go back to France to re-shoot. The unfortunate part is he had to pay again for the whole trip. Was costly.

 

[deconstruct60]

I'm not sure how much higher intel will push the core count wars.

which kind of cores? general purpose x86 ones? For the price range that Apple is likely to use, the could be coming to a halt. But those aren't the only ones.

In the Linux High Performance Computing (HPC) space, at least to 60.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/xeon-phi-detail.html

But for mainstream Xeon E5 2600 class, the leaked x progression so far is :

Sandy Bridge E5 2600 max 8
Ivy Bridge E5 2600 v2 max 10 ( process shrink)
Haswell E5 2600 v3 max 14
Broadwell E5 2600 v4 max ?? ( process shrink )

probably aligned with a doubling from 8 so 16 is a good bet for that last slot. However, this year's upcoming E7 4800 is suppose to start at 16 (up from current E7 cap of 10). Intel could be moving to mere E7 and E5 by the time they arrive at Broadwell. There is already a E5 4600. Broadwell versions should extensively overlap what this years E7 will cover.


if Intel has a decent GPGPU they can embedded by Broadwell it would make sense to add it at Broadwell or after for "embarrassingly parallel" float workloads of moderate size. They could start with the 1600 series at Broadwell if they keep that series capped out 6-8 cores.

In short, there could be other than general purpose x86 cores heading for workstation targeted Xeons.

 

[dbroncos78087]

I don't know if it helps your decision (assuming you haven't made it yet) but we use 2008 Mac Pros at work with 10.8 and they run just fine. They use them for some work that can only be done on them but I really don't remember what it is.

So if you have a Mac Pro from about that time, you should be good.

 

[Tesselator]

FB = Facebook?

It's not all internal storage, I keep some of that data on external HDDs. I copy most things twice, if it's not stored internally and backed up on our Time Machine or Drobo N5, it's copied to two external drives (one as backup) and or to Blu-ray disc.

Costly and unprofessional yes sadly but there are only four of us working in the company. We never imagined we would win so much work. We're a relatively new company.

15TB, New Company, Commercially active... Sounds like it's time for you guys to sit down and make a plan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-6EQo6it7Y
​

When you piece together a server like we show in the video you'd be surprised at how inexpensive it actually is. It's pretty much only when you buy from 3rd party server and storage vendors that the prices are astronomical.

 

[nigelbb]

Final Cut is one of the pieces of software that you are using so unless you are proposing to build a Hackintosh you absolutely need a Mac. I have a dual CPU (8-core) 2008 Mac Pro 3,1 which I have upgraded with 16GB RAM an SSD & GTX570 plus USB3 & eSATA cards. I am a professional working with video & still photographs & this is still a great workhorse for Final Cut, Photoshop, Premiere Pro, After Effects & anything else I throw at it. The RAM upgrade was expensive but I did that a couple of years ago. A 256GB SSD & a used GTX570 will give an enormous boost in performance for about $300.

 

[Sophia.]

Final Cut is one of the pieces of software that you are using so unless you are proposing to build a Hackintosh you absolutely need a Mac. I have a dual CPU (8-core) 2008 Mac Pro 3,1 which I have upgraded with 16GB RAM an SSD & GTX570 plus USB3 & eSATA cards. I am a professional working with video & still photographs & this is still a great workhorse for Final Cut, Photoshop, Premiere Pro, After Effects & anything else I throw at it. The RAM upgrade was expensive but I did that a couple of years ago. A 256GB SSD & a used GTX570 will give an enormous boost in performance for about $300.

I could live without Final Cut but it would be nice to have it and yes I would need a Mac for that. I could upgrade my Mac Pro but there are two factors at play, one it's old and needs upgrading or replaced and two I really want a new computer.

I have just over £11,000 ($16,623) saved in my computer fund and I enjoy learning about the new tech that I could be working with. I get really excited thinking about a shiny new machine (Mac or PC), I know that's really juvenile but it's true...

Any unspent funds will go towards some enterprise-level data storage hopefully.

 

[nigelbb]

I could live without Final Cut but it would be nice to have it and yes I would need a Mac for that. I could upgrade my Mac Pro but there are two factors at play, one it's old and needs upgrading or replaced and two I really want a new computer.

Upgrade your existing Mac Pro and buy a new one? Run FCP on the Mac Pro.

I have just over £11,000 ($16,623) saved in my computer fund and I enjoy learning about the new tech that I could be working with. I get really excited thinking about a shiny new machine (Mac or PC), I know that's really juvenile but it's true...

Any unspent funds will go towards some enterprise-level data storage hopefully.

Get an LTO tape drive. It's the absolutely most reliable way of archiving. Use BRU PE for managing the backups. You already have a Mac you could use for this which would give you the perfect excuse to buy another computer. http://ww2.productionbackup.com/

 

[Tesselator]

Again, I venture to disagree. We all know by now you're in love with your tape backup system. But there's no way I (and others who spoke up last time as well) would recommend tape as a "most reliable" storage medium.

Also, is "productionbackup" your site or affiliate? If so that explains a lot...

 

[bearcatrp]

Good video tesselator. Good solution on old technology. If apple would ever get off there arse and update the pro equipment, folks like the ones in the video get get things done a little fast. Liked how they used photo shop.

 

[Sophia.]

Good video tesselator. Good solution on old technology. If apple would ever get off there arse and update the pro equipment, folks like the ones in the video get get things done a little fast. Liked how they used photo shop.

Agreed a very relevant video indeed a setup such as this one is exactly what my colleagues and I need. We really need a large sever like the Apple Xserve or something similar. I wonder what the running costs for such a machine are...

If one was to make a thread asking questions about storage solutions where would be the best place for one to post?

 

[nigelbb]

Again, I venture to disagree. We all know by now you're in love with your tape backup system. But there's no way I (and others who spoke up last time as well) would recommend tape as a "most reliable" storage medium.

Also, is "productionbackup" your site or affiliate? If so that explains a lot...

Aren't you the guy who thought that tape was particularly vulnerable to cosmic rays? You clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Have you ever worked with proper grown-up IT systems? Tape has been used as the archival medium of choice for decades.

Don't insult me by insinuating that I have some financial interest in recommending a particular product. BRU PE (Backup Restore Utility Producer's Edition) is the standard Mac software for tape backup & is widely used in the media world. It's a cut down version of the full-blown BRU which is produced by the Tolis Group who have been in the backup business for over 25 years http://www.tolisgroup.com/home.php This is the sort of industrial strength software & hardware that you would use if you were shooting a feature film on Red Epic & wanted to secure the shedloads of data.

You probably think that a Mac Pro is a big computer. Perhaps if you knew a little more about large scale computers rather than single user systems you wouldn't talk such arrant nonsense.

 

[thekev]

Again, I venture to disagree. We all know by now you're in love with your tape backup system. But there's no way I (and others who spoke up last time as well) would recommend tape as a "most reliable" storage medium.

Also, is "productionbackup" your site or affiliate? If so that explains a lot...

What's wrong with tape? It's quite practical for companies that must archive dozens or hundreds of terabytes of data for years.