Politics, Religion, Social Issues Forum Closed (July 2021)

[maflynn]

What would happen to these threads? Locked? Would I get moderated? Could I get banned?

Like any rules violation, the post or thread will be removed and the guilty individual will receive a message from the moderators. Moderation escalation can occur if the person has a history of violating the rules, or continues to post PRSI content. if that occurs, they can see ever increasing suspensions and its quite possible that if they choose not alter their behavior to be banned.

 

[giv-as-a-ciggy-kent]

I wonder how many people here who are happy that subforum is gone feel that way because they were just annoyed that people were expressing opinions contrary to their own with no (few) consequences.

 

[Herdfan]

IMO this is a messy situation, unless MRs just wants us to talk tech with zero reference to anything going on in the world. Please limit all talk to the Mac, iPhone, iPad, and Apple devices…

But sometime you can't talk about Apple devices without referencing things going on in China. They are too intertwined.

 

[Blue Velvet]

I have the same question. Can we talk about climate change? Where?

Apple has made great strides when it comes to minimizing e-waste, but is that the only place?

The Apple Store in town opened up, can we talk about how COVID-19 changed the store? Or, is that political?

The previous US administration put a 25% tariff on imported semiconductors leading to chip shortages. Is that not a relevant, serious conversation?

Arn, it's entirely appropriate to apologise. After the clumsy silencing and gutting of the private contributors forum, it's the second time in ten years or so I've seen a community forum here go to the wall due to bureaucratic, hamfisted anal policy and moderation, not helped by the high turnover and poor work-sharing practices in the team at the time.

A failure and capitulation. That's what this is.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Don't really like ribs though.

Blasphemer! Burn the heretic!

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

The previous US administration put a 25% tariff on imported semiconductors leading to chip shortages. Is that not a relevant, serious conversation?

Arn, it's entirely appropriate to apologise. After the clumsy silencing and gutting of the private contributors forum, it's the second time in ten years or so I've seen a community forum here go to the wall due to bureaucratic, hamfisted anal policy and moderation, not helped by the high turnover and poor work-sharing practices in the team at the time.

A failure and capitulation. That's what this is.

(I wish I could PM you, but it looks like you have those off. Fair enough, I’ll say it publicly.)

There are few if any I respect more than you and wish you were still around as much as you used to be. You’ve always been incredibly helpful and kind and were a great moderator.

Your words here cut like a knife, surgically, and deep. They should carry great weight given your experience over the years.

 

[Blue Velvet]

There are few if any I respect more than you and wish you were still around as much as you used to be.

That's very generous of you, but I occasionally pick up my Apple news from the MR Twitter feed nowdays and lurk or drop in when I can't work out something to do with my phone or Mac. There aren't huge day to day changes in product or spec from month to month.

It's so easy to generate potential scenarios. A book thread, what are you reading where someone picks up Steinbeck or Piketty. A forum member always buys Product Red Apple products because they support their corporate policies on HIV research. Here's my family, partner and me at Pride, for instance, posted in the Private forums or the Photo Gallery and some homophobic chud complains.

Steve Jobs himself:

"It is in Apple's DNA that technology alone is not enough — it's technology married with liberal arts, married with the humanities, that yields us the results that make our heart sing."

You've all lost sight of the spirit of Apple's community and are no longer able to embrace diversity, attempting to separate topics and events that can't be separated. Furthermore, you've also laid yourself open to bobbing along in the wake of a right wing agenda, where anything and everything will be politicised. For weeks running, Dr Seuss books were a hot topic on Fox News and your current position is that someone posting in Community during that time, offering recommendations on children's books, would somehow be drawn into a moderation issue, even if tangentially?

I fully understand potential resourcing issues and the unknown factors behind the scenes, but that the leadership of this site finds itself unable to accommodate serious discussion in line with Apple's vision – which PRSI could have been rebadged and retooled to address – is utterly incredulous. Included amongst Apple's customers and your site membership are professionals – writers, architects, creatives, managers, lawyers, doctors, lecturers and teachers etc., and these people are going to hang around and get nibbled to death or slapped down by Cartman and his little list, because of subsection 21c or the peanut gallery?

Get real.

 

[Huntn]

Like any rules violation, the post or thread will be removed and the guilty individual will receive a message from the moderators. Moderation escalation can occur if the person has a history of violating the rules, or continues to post PRSI content. if that occurs, they can see ever increasing suspensions and its quite possible that if they choose not alter their behavior to be banned.

My point was, would those two threads I mentioned be locked/forbidden? Hence back to my request for a link to the new rule posted here which describes unacceptable content.

 

[sevoneone]

I've honestly noticed that since I no longer argue debate with users in that area who are on the other side of the political spectrum than I, that I have a lot more in common with them than I thought I did.

There were several users that I had heated debates with, and who I thought I didn't like, but away from that area and seeing their posts in the traditional areas of this forum has given me a different and new perspective of them...

It used to be people on opposite sides of the aisle could fiercely debate and have heated conversations about issues on which they disagreed, yet hang out and even be close personal friends with each other outside of of that. I mean the Obamas and Bushes seem to genuinely enjoy being together at events. The horror! /s

I'm not calling you out, but using your post to make a point that you don't have to be 100%, or even more than 50%, aligned with someone to like, respect and even call them a friend. Something has gone fundamentally wrong when we can't separate the two. The news media and social media basically have people so wired into needing to be on a "side" that we no longer have a concept of where politics begins and ends because in the mainstream digital space it is a never ending firestorm of doom scrolling. That's the argument as to why spaces like PRSI that are open, yet civil, moderated, and at least slightly more critical thinking oriented, to exist.

The attention spans and FOMO on the social media platforms where the all world's political discussion is being funneled is the antithesis of that. You're encouraging the feed-scrolling addicted masses to form, and make heard, their 15-second opinions between posts from Realtors, neighbors demanding to know why 'that' helicopter flew over the neighborhood at 10:00pm, and friends from high school they haven't seen in 20 years. While that screaming is spilling out of those places and into more traditional ones, the answer can not be to simply close up shop and say no politics every time. We have to be able to exist in a world with politics and critical thinking, the alternative is pretty dark.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Sad to see this go.

Discussing politics within the context of Apple as a company (which has UNAVOIDABLE links to political issues) was fun and educational.

I liked to exercise my ideological arguments muscles here, as well as monitor the pulse of my ideological enemies' ideas and way of thinking.

I learned more than a few things, not just ammo against ideas opposed to mine but how some of those ideas may have been more reasonable than I expected and I was proven wrong.

Alas...

 

[adrianlondon]

Getting the lay of the land for @arn
Can it be discussed without talking about climate change, like oh boy it’s been hot, I can’t imagine why?

You can say global warming is caused by that guy who had 19 over-heating HomePods.

 

[Blue Velvet]

the guilty individual

Also telling is the ethical abdication of a clear editorial policy based upon evidence-based discussion and a responsibility to the broad community this leadership purports to support, a moral vacuum that reveals the shallowness of this enterprise.

We've heard in this thread and others that this forum has been a lifeline during a difficult 18 months for many. While corporate America is largely comfortable with social issues like supporting Pride month, for instance, that a former practicing physician finds himself indirectly potentially banning discussion of vaccination on his site because hold on, it's social, it's now suddenly political. Here, have an unboxing video instead... and we'll clip your wings if you utter a minor profanity.

As an example of collective leadership, could have put your foot down and made clear where you stand, unequivocally cascading this down, banning the anti-vaxxers and one cent Nazis from your space without mercy or discussion, instead of letting misinformation flood the zone, but instead, imposing collective punishment and a muting of conversation on an entire section of membership.

Could have taken a stance, shown a degree of responsibility, had a vaccination drive, for instance, and saved some lives, instead of wringing your collective hands because this or that is a 'social' topic. Could have leveraged forum talent in a campaign about right to repair, for instance, a massive issue and one where the PR benefits may have vastly outweighed what benefit this site may have gained from cozying up to peers in the industry.

Also, should people not discuss the world-leading efforts that Apple have baked into their operating systems to accommodate physical disabilities, an enormous gesture to the disabled and also the senior community, because it's 'social'? Are deaf people going to be monitored and weeded out, discussing their experience of using Apple products while navigating an able-bodied world?

I mean, just listen to this petty nonsense, the narrow orthodoxy and authoritative presumption of guilt – the contemptuous tone of this, as if your team are leading the prosecution:

"the guilty individual"

The absolute state of it.

 

[theSeb]

It is sometimes tempting to burn down the whole house because you have some fleas, but there are better ways of dealing with the problem. What is astounding to me though is to burn down the house next to the one with the most fleas.

PRSI was not really that bad. It was full of mostly well thought out and interesting posts. Sure, there were some bad actors that tried to play the "ban game" reporting trivial infractions and this, coupled with the overbearing and impossible to enforce equally rules, would have made moderating PRSI a difficult task for the volunteer moderators. I would bet that a large number of the moderation reports came from PRSI.

Closing down PRSI seems like a weird decision when the truly inexcusable behaviour is mostly in the "political news" section of the forum. It has become impossible to discuss any news story that may feature any tidbit about folks who do not happen to be able-bodied caucasian males. I cannot imagine fully what it must be like where every discussion, or news, featuring your group is declared "political".

There is a nasty mob that operates in political news section and its members use post and run tactics on a regular basis and nothing is done about them. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about any of these news topics on this site without the mob destroying the discussion, or forcing the topic to be closed, thus getting the result they desired.

 

[bunnspecial]

Could have taken a stance, shown a degree of responsibility, had a vaccination drive, for instance, and saved some lives,

I think there's an interesting parallel to draw here.

I have been, in the past, a strong supporter of the MacRumors annual blood drive.

I was once a regular platelet donor with over 30 units donated over my lifetime. I no longer donate regularly by doctor's orders, but still am a strong supporter of it(especially after I watched my grandfather received blood roughly once a month for the past year of his life). I don't say this to brag, but just to say it was something I personally feel strongly about.

MR holding a blood drive is not a political issue and shouldn't be. There is a separate topic of the prohibition of MSM donors and a seeming double standard in regards to it, but this is something that seems to be moving "in the right direction" so to speak even though it's not been fixed(use to be a lifetime prohibition, now I think it's 1 year).

Still, though, this is something MR does every year that does good for the community and the world at large.

Having a virtual "vaccine drive" or anything along those lines would be great. Vaccines SHOULDN'T be a political issue, but unfortunately have been made one...

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

What is astounding to me though is to burn down the house next to the one with the most fleas.

Ding, ding, ding!

 

[yaxomoxay]

For many though it was using articles, papers, and other such things that could be easily verified by anyone else reading on their own.

Thank you for our sparring sessions. We rarely agreed on anything ("beautiful weather", "no it sucks"! ? ), but I always checked your sources and learned a lot from them. I hope that I was able to return the favor and provide you with some useful information, wherever it lead.

 

[yaxomoxay]

That is quite a blow. Just to confirm, religious and social topics are no longer allowed at MacRumors say plunked in the Community forum?

I think that @arn and some of his mods will have to revisit their policy on social topics. It would be unreasonable to not talk about some of them a little bit in the Community Section. How can you not talk about Covid, or - God forbid - if there's another 9/11 of some kind? My bet is that in a few months there will be a socio-political mega thread approved by the mods, but no forum. This would create enough attrition, it would make conversations more difficult to follow (hence less back and forth on the same topics over and over), and it would prevent thread titles created with the intent to provoke.

 

[IllinoisCorn]

The moderators, in my experience are all lefties (including Arn--leftie), got tired of hearing people on the right speak and just want silence them.

The Verge did the same (for a period, and then they let the comments section die out) and most other tech and lefty sites do this, because the exposure to right leaning opinions is "hurtful" (so they say).

I have not looked, but I hope there are clear rules posted for other forums, as sometimes Apple and politics are intertwined (anti-trust, pictures of Tim Cook with world leaders, etc.). I suppose anyone who voices a right or center right opinion on any of those issues in the comments of like a "news" piece will get hit with a ban hammer rapidly.

And maybe that is the idea all along, no?

 

[IllinoisCorn]

That's very generous of you, but I occasionally pick up my Apple news from the MR Twitter feed nowdays and lurk or drop in when I can't work out something to do with my phone or Mac. There aren't huge day to day changes in product or spec from month to month.

It's so easy to generate potential scenarios. A book thread, what are you reading where someone picks up Steinbeck or Piketty. A forum member always buys Product Red Apple products because they support their corporate policies on HIV research. Here's my family, partner and me at Pride, for instance, posted in the Private forums or the Photo Gallery and some homophobic chud complains.

Steve Jobs himself:

"It is in Apple's DNA that technology alone is not enough — it's technology married with liberal arts, married with the humanities, that yields us the results that make our heart sing."

You've all lost sight of the spirit of Apple's community and are no longer able to embrace diversity, attempting to separate topics and events that can't be separated. Furthermore, you've also laid yourself open to bobbing along in the wake of a right wing agenda, where anything and everything will be politicised. For weeks running, Dr Seuss books were a hot topic on Fox News and your current position is that someone posting in Community during that time, offering recommendations on children's books, would somehow be drawn into a moderation issue, even if tangentially?

I fully understand potential resourcing issues and the unknown factors behind the scenes, but that the leadership of this site finds itself unable to accommodate serious discussion in line with Apple's vision – which PRSI could have been rebadged and retooled to address – is utterly incredulous. Included amongst Apple's customers and your site membership are professionals – writers, architects, creatives, managers, lawyers, doctors, lecturers and teachers etc., and these people are going to hang around and get nibbled to death or slapped down by Cartman and his little list, because of subsection 21c or the peanut gallery?

Get real.

I probably don't agree with you on very much, but this is all very well said and very true. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Herdfan]

The moderators, in my experience are all lefties (including Arn--leftie), got tired of hearing people on the right speak and just want silence them.

The Verge did the same (for a period, and then they let the comments section die out) and most other tech and lefty sites do this, because the exposure to right leaning opinions is "hurtful" (so they say).

I have not looked, but I hope there are clear rules posted for other forums, as sometimes Apple and politics are intertwined (anti-trust, pictures of Tim Cook with world leaders, etc.). I suppose anyone who voices a right or center right opinion on any of those issues in the comments of like a "news" piece will get hit with a ban hammer rapidly.

And maybe that is the idea all along, no?

This probably won't last here long. ?

 

[yaxomoxay]

My 2c.

Like that, PRSI is gone. I have to admit that for a while I was addicted to that forum. I like to think I made many virtual friends, and I like to think that most of us respected each other even if we vehemently disagreed. However, a few months ago I decided to pull myself out of PRSI completely and to pull myself from news media consumption. In general, my life vastly improved.

The truth is simple: I do not fit in current politics. For me, discussing about politics is looking at stats, history, policies, with little interest on who's doing what. I like conversations, I despise name calling, and I certainly don't like meme-politics so let alone twitter politics.

@avz mentioned Kissinger in one post in this thread; as my friends here know, I had Kissinger as my avatar for quite a few years. This is to say that I often think about what the former Secretary of State wrote in 2013 - that is, way before DJT was a candidate or the whole discussion about Twitter/Facebook alleged censorship - in his book World Order. There's a beautiful chapter which describes what we're living now, that is a political world that is in constant reaction to the feelings of social media and that allows for little or no introspection. In Dr. Kissinger's view, that would bring serious social issues that would trickle down to the entire political conversation making sensible, long-term public policy-making virtually impossible. For those interested, there's a beautiful interview that Dr. Kissinger did with Google's CEO Eric Schmidt on YouTube that touches on this subject among others (Schmidt mentions that the chapter should be mandatory reading, and I do agree).

This is just to say that online political conversations vastly deviated from how people talk about issues in real life, and that the growth of echo chambers on all sides (this include flat earthers...) is separating people more and more. In the past few months I had the opportunity to re-think how I see the world of politics, and in this I also had the opportunity to think about PRSI. I even proposed some hardcore rules for the forum which included lengthy posts, no memes, and such. The truth is that PRSI cannot be saved, and it's not PRSI's faults or the mods fault. Politics has become so divisive - and personal - that almost all argumentation is fruitless and ends up being meaningless regardless of how well intentioned some people in the conversations are. Politics should be as impersonal as humanely possible, public policy should not based on party-lines. All of this is exacerbated by mainstream news which is basically back to its yellow journalism days and looks for constant controversy (seriously we see Breaking News such as "Alyssa Milano slams Trump on Twitter" or "Jon Voight accuses Biden at CPAC"; I mean, really? That's news? And how about not using idiotic words like "slams", "destroys", etc?).

I think that PRSI had some raison d'etre before 2015, when social media was strong but people were still not used to talk too much politics on it (twitter is an exception) and anonymous forums were rare. In 2021 we have Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Discord, Whatsapp on top of 4chan and most importantly Reddit. If we want to talk politics we can find a subforum on Reddit in five seconds and be completely anonymous.

Macrumors is a tech forum and we should not lose sight of it. A complete separation between tech and politics will be impossible, but I understand why the owners want to limit political discussions as much as possible. I think that no PRSI is a good idea.

So, the lights are off. Now that the curtain has fallen, I'd like to thank all the PRSI friends and foes. It has been a pleasure to talk to you.

 

[yaxomoxay]

, got tired of hearing people on the right speak and just want silence them.

I am conservative and I never had the feeling that they were silencing me.

 

[the future]

The moderators, in my experience are all lefties

My experience was very different. Care to give an example?

 

[raqball]

The moderators, in my experience are all lefties (including Arn--leftie), got tired of hearing people on the right speak and just want silence them.

I spent my fair amount of time in PRSI jail but I never felt like I was getting tossed in the slammer because of moderator bias... The tossing of users in the slammer was pretty well balanced (liberal and conservative) from what I saw..

If they are liberal, (D), or 'lefties' as you call them then I never felt like they were enforcing or not enforcing the rules based on their political stance..

 

[Falhófnir]

My experience was very different. Care to give an example?

The number of equal and opposing complaints I've seen over the years that the moderators 'have a left wing bias' or 'have a right wing bias' is the clearest signal to me that they must be pretty even handed overall. The problem, as others have pointed out, seems to be that people have gotten used to expressing what would have been traditionally strong left or right viewpoints, but that they've come to think of as moderate in the context of a more extreme polarised political climate.