Powered Monitor Speakers

[jibberia]

Um...

The hypotenuse is the long side of a non-equilateral triangle, FYI. The listener and speakers are at the corners of the triangle.

And as far as the four-foot thing, that's just ridiculous. A waveform, when produced as audio, is moving air. There is compression and release. Distance has nothing to do with this - our ears reference moving air going past our heads. Also, very few speakers without subwoofers, and certainly not nearfields, can actually produce a 40hz sine. Adding harmonics makes our ears realize that the fundamental is there, and that's OK.

 

[LaoTzu]

every room needs some acoustical treatment. if it's built from scratch, the treatments can be part of the actual materials themselves. if you're using an existing room-it's gonna need some work.

To be acoustically flat, perhaps. If you know & love a room sound.... bathrooms are on many CD's - Santana's last....
If you record / mix master - all rooms need.... listening, measurements - mike a sine wave sweep - and experience.... drums are not like piano, flute, or voice.... each has it's own set of.... peculiarities. Experience needed, not just before, but all along, every day..... open minded, or you defeat yourself, and stop learning...

near field monitoring setups need treatment also. early reflections, standing waves..they all exist regardless of the size of the room or the listening position. there are plenty of articles online that discuss these issues. you can also study designs by firms such as Russ Berger Assoc. or Chris Pelonis.

COUGH! You get early reflections about 0% in 3 feet from speakers perfectly aligned with you in center. Standing waves, reflections happen AFTER a few feet - Main monitors, mic placement, considerations....
Yes, many discuss these on line. Near field is not mentioning this - and acoustic treatments are Always suggested by commission sales people working there, or at music sales company.
Such speakers have directions - keep 8" from wall - use bass roll off if you get xxx in testing - now bi amped speakers also catch FIRE less than 8" from wall - so between sound/ fire/ mostly catching on well....

and don't get me started on the mythical NS-10's. After years of happy mixing on other monitors i succumbed to peer pressure and bought a pair of these clunkers. I tried to like them, i really did but finally sold them. since they're now "rare", i got more than i originally paid for them...SUCKER! aurotones, minimus 7's...every few years there's a new "golden" monitor....meh.

I have seen NS10's in every studio I have ever been in.... and all with 20 years experience. The point isn't to "Sound Good" - actually flat EQ makes it sound "Bad". Where most speakers make it "Sound Better" we need to hear into a Mix/ Master.
NS 10's are ubiquitous. No one says they sound best, but that the mixes "Translate" better, & more universally, than ANY other.... and 90% of CD's still prove this daily....

Yes, most studios have 4 sets of near fields. NS 10's, maybe Mackie, tannoy, and usually some cheap ass horrid radio shack brand with horrid sound..... and usually small "Toy" sized like a sub 1" TV speaker - switching through all these for objective comparisons - from a Yugo stereo, to iPods, Mercedes 1,000 Watt stereo, cheap TV, cars from 1970, PC speakers worth $2 - and laptop speakers......
The mains in a studio are probably great.... far away.... louder.... but that's to listen to, for fun, feel, whatever..... for critical mix/ master - you need to get work done to translate to any speakers.... not pretty on your own.... but as good as we can on all types....

No, room reflections are minimized 99.99% ***

* Sewer empty elevator shaft filled 14% with water & Iron can rooms on tankers, or some gymnasiums may not work perfectly... but you'll know it right away!


Sometimes, we need to record while band plays - so headphones on singer, example..... keeps only vocals ( not band leaking into track ) - and some places where yelping dogs or jackhammers - are poor mixing environments,
So, the headphones with flat EQ Monitor down to sometimes 5Hz & up to 38KHz +/- 1db (!)

Here is a quick list - $199 to $49 (!)

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKGK240DF 15Hz - 20KHz $199

OMG These go from 12Hz - 38 KHz ( Like Yamaha MSP - but lower & headphones!! )
http://www.zzounds.com/item--SENHD580 $199


http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTATHM40FS $69.95

Flat EQ from (cough!) Frequency Response: 5 - 28,000 Hz (!)

Yamaha ( says like NS 10's - the choice! )
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMRH5MA
20 Hz -20 kHz $49.95 (!)


http://www.zzounds.com/item--SAMRH600 $49.95


Lao Tzu

 

[howesey]

Every studio I've ever mixed in has had a pair of NS-10s on the meter bridge. They're the standard. If you're actually doing work in real studios, you MUST know what they sound like.

Yup, they are everywhere. They are not great, but it is what people work on and to. They sound similar in different environments. Moving from one room to another you do not have to worry too much.

I'd never buy m-audio, behringer, etc. for monitors. They're too important, and you'll never see them in real studios... you're just shooting yourself in the foot with them. (and I'm not a gear snob in other areas - ie I have all kinds of "semi-junky" mics - but definitely not my speakers)

I agree. Your monitors are very important, do not skimp on them.

I'm quite into M&K. They also seem to be the industry standard when it comes to film.

http://www.mksound.com/
http://www.mkprofessional.com/

My favourite has to be the B&W 800S speakers. There only downside, they are too good. They do truly set the benchmark for monitors though. They are not just hi-fi speakers, they are designed for studio also. Just go to most of the most famous, and some of the best studios in the world, you'll see B&W 800 series in the rooms. EMI's Abbey Road studios is a good example.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.ranges/Label/Range 800 Series

smoke?!?! wow!!! can't say i have ever had that problem.

but behringer is the TRUTH when it comes down to quality monitors for the price.

Sorry, but they are the worst monitors I have ever come across. Also, smoke, if you are in the industry, you know Behringer will not last for long. I'm not a snob, but they are one manufacturer I would not rely on.

 

[LaoTzu]

Um...

The hypotenuse is the long side of a non-equilateral triangle, FYI. The listener and speakers are at the corners of the triangle.

I keep forgetting all the names..... for triangles..... but yeah corners of equal sided triangle! Thx!

And as far as the four-foot thing, that's just ridiculous. A waveform, when produced as audio, is moving air. There is compression and release. Distance has nothing to do with this - our ears reference moving air going past our heads. Also, very few speakers without subwoofers, and certainly not nearfields, can actually produce a 40hz sine. Adding harmonics makes our ears realize that the fundamental is there, and that's OK.

In Acoustics, wave forms are very real.... few nearfields CAN produce a 40 Hz because you need a larger speaker.... tweeters are small, woofers bigger ( not style, physics, science ) Yes, harmonics above ( & Maxx Bass Waves ad's tell us! ) do "Psycho acoustically" reproduce them by inference by our minds..... they say.... and true in many ways....

8" woofer can usually do 20Hz - ported bass ( Holes in speaker aka tuned bass ports also can make box resonate lower than speakers could... )


I mean we all know Lightning & thunder start at same time.... and unless it is really close, thunder follows, by seconds, lightning.... this is how we can tell distance.
If I play a small stage, and Bass player is 2 feet away - I can't make out the sounds.... if he is 90 feet away - delay is 50ms - 100ms but I adjust - miking - I need placement between them....

There are many EQ curves available - some better than others - Lotta near fields move tweeter back inches & woofer foreword to make sure both hit ears @ same time....

( You can reproduce 4ft waves in 1/2 - 2ft. or double 4ft - & several other math equations.... )

 

[LaoTzu]

Behringer are inexpensive..... for what you get.

Genelec is not in everyones price range. Some even suggest 20 grand speakers hardly make it easy to translate to many cheap, speakers....

Yamaha NS 10's were just book shelf speakers.... 25 years ago, not bad, then people realized how un hyped high, low, mids - made reference mixes translate better than anything....

Compare ANY speaker 25 - 30 years old - it will be different..... but you need to get used to mix/ master speakers - not upgrade - know what these do..... translate....

Hope this helps!

 

[howesey]

A 40Hz ( Low E on Bass Guitar ) is actually a 4 foot wave form - it cannot be recorded, heard, or mic'd unless you move back 4 feet. ( So say a subwoofer may be on the floor 6 feet away ) but tweeters are tiny wave forms ( Many speakers make woofer stick out, tweeter back inches so both hit ears @ same time.... )

If we take the speed of sound as 1330' (340m) per second, the waveform at 40Hz is more like 28 feet in wavelength.

 

[jibberia]

Lao Tzu - I think you're confusing some things.

We all know the speed of sound is slower than light. This has nothing to do with the wavelength problem you've invented.

Care to hash this out in detail?

And as far as 8" speakers producing 20hz tones - We can barely hear 20hz tones, even with tons of harmonics. Try it. Take a square wave up from 0hz to 20. You'll barely be able to hear pitch, instead of a bunch of clicks, until about 20-22hz. Sine waves? We really can't hear those that low unless huge speakers are making them and pushing a ton of air. Just around 40hz does bass get useful - and 8" speakers can push that. My Haflers can.

It really helps to hook up an old synth and test this stuff out. Or maybe Max/MSP or another low-level-ish synthesis program. You'll see (hear) what I'm talking about.

 

[howesey]

Lao Tzu - I think you're confusing some things.

We all know the speed of sound is slower than light. This has nothing to do with the wavelength problem you've invented.

Care to hash this out in detail?

And as far as 8" speakers producing 20hz tones - We can barely hear 20hz tones, even with tons of harmonics. Try it. Take a square wave up from 0hz to 20. You'll barely be able to hear pitch, instead of a bunch of clicks, until about 20-22hz. Sine waves? We really can't hear those that low unless huge speakers are making them and pushing a ton of air. Just around 40hz does bass get useful - and 8" speakers can push that. My Haflers can.

It really helps to hook up an old synth and test this stuff out. Or maybe Max/MSP or another low-level-ish synthesis program. You'll see (hear) what I'm talking about.

You do not hear clicks with a 20Hz square wave. You hear a fundamental (if you can hear it at that low of a frequency), and a lot of odd harmonics (which you will hear for sure). A square wave is not produced as an on/off in audio.

 

[3rdpath]

LaoTzu,

you're certainly entitled to your opinion but i completely disagree with much of what you have to say. ntm, some of your info is contradictory, such as :

few nearfields CAN produce a 40 Hz because you need a larger speaker....snip...8" woofer can usually do 20Hz - ported bass

or just plain wrong:

A 40Hz ( Low E on Bass Guitar ) is actually a 4 foot wave form - it cannot be recorded, heard, or mic'd unless you move back 4 feet.

you're welcome to place your ear next to my SVT cabinet as a test. i'll turn the output volume to 8 and pluck my bass guitar's low E. heck, i'll even hit a low B since that wave should, according to your theory, be MUCH too long to hear next to the cabinet.

seriously...you might want to rethink the authoritative nature of your posts.

 

[jibberia]

You do not hear clicks with a 20Hz square wave. You hear a fundamental (if you can hear it at that low of a frequency), and a lot of odd harmonics (which you will hear for sure). A square wave is not produced as an on/off in audio.

Maybe. It depends on the waveform, but humans begin to detect pitch between 19 and 21 hz. The square wave is tricky because it distinctly sounds like clicks below, say, 18hz, but the harmonics take over above that.

This is a tricky problem. Try this - listen to a 20hz square wave alone (try to sing its pitch, too), and then listen to a 40hz square, and then switch back to the 20hz. Hearing the octave up makes our brains much more "in tune" with the pitch we're hearing, and the second time around it'll sound a lot more note-like than the first.

And just because a band-limited square isn't produced as an on/off doesn't mean it doesn't make clicks at low frequencies - it most certainly does. Maybe "pops" is the better word?

 

[e-clipse]

the engineering community disagrees with your conclusions.

strongly.

I thought we were talking about the monitoring room, not the recording rooms.

It is better to have an over treated room(dead room) versus a room bouncing
frequencies to equal an over colored sound. Bass traps are great for finding your accurate bass within your mix. A diffusor wall behind you, is a plus... Or am I incorrect as well?

 

[zimv20]

I thought we were talking about the monitoring room, not the recording rooms.

we are. the notion that a nearfield can provide a listening experience that doesn't interact with a non-treated room is false. ears don't reject reflected frequencies.

 

[LaoTzu]

If we take the speed of sound as 1330' (340m) per second, the waveform at 40Hz is more like 28 feet in wavelength.

1088 feet/sec @ Sea level 32 F on earth. I mistyped......

25Hz is 44 feet ( approx, temp/ elevation/ air density vary )

20 Hz is 55 feet..... in Spring in the US

& Ears & Mind can perceive upper harmonics which recreate the original ( but a microphone & Speaker are not like that.....
Loud speakers typically have HUGE HORNS - they need to be at least 1/2 the wavelength to have an effect on a frequency. So Yeah a 44 foot room for a whole 25Hz wave form, but 22 feet will work well @ 1/2. Smaller fractions ( you can google! ) can also do smaller - but decent reproductions..... 1/3 1/5 1/7 -

50 Hz needs about 22 feet for a full waveform. but on warmer days - it wont fit, and sound "different" that day (many amps Marshall on humid days in summer ) or 11.5 for a 1/2 wave form.

Yes, you can get some "sound" before 22 feet. We know a wave form shape
----===========-------
-----=========================------
------==========--------

/\
|

At halfway we see at least beginning to peak waveform. But how will it end??? Ears can figure it out..... even bones resonate low end....

That is why speakers need, to recreate a real complete wave form, long throw woofers - stage speakers often use 15" woofers - Which go lower than mid range & tweeters. Conversely 15" woofers cannot create high end.....

Tricks include Tuned PORT - a Blow Hole in speakers. This boosts the space available for reproducing low end. Say we have 8" Woofer, 1" Tweeter & Tuned Bass port - EQ graph will show a boost to lower frequencies, then drop, and slowly come up as speaker size steps in.....

Also a cone shape, with larger to smaller concentric circles, ( maybe voice coils ) each one for another frequency but still 15" never get's to small tweeter sizes....

Look at sub woofers. They may have 1000 watts - 15" speaker - and then two holes - "Tuned" cabinets, which may allow 9 feet - wrapped around the cab - & another at 11 feet - or a Bose Acoustimass which has 44 feet of tube....

 

[LaoTzu]

These are complex topics.... they vary based upon so many variables... Yet, for example, not knowing what near field is..... is for.... or saying it doesn't mitigate room variance when that is all they are for.... is disturbing!

Saying "I hate NS 10's" , OK fine.... but every studio still has a pair on the console..... "Good" is not a clear flat response allowing low, mid, high as recorded. This is a profession, a skill, and a job.... and honestly you should find a good monitor, bland, boring, unremarkable, in every way......


Yeah, Logic has a sine sweep for testing rooms, speakers, Mikes, ears.... I encourage everyone to try it... SLOW - @ Berklee Music College - Music Technology is a 1st semester class auto signed in for....
In a Music auditorium acoustically designed, with superb amplification, various frequencies are played..... ages are 17 - 40 - lower bass - guys heard before girls..... mids seemed LOUD 200Hz - 2KHz - finally at 20KHz it was very quiet..... like dog whistle.... but the girls, ALL heard 30KHz - as this is a class with 100 people, every semester, seems ears don't necessarily degrade ( or eyes as is commonly said ) and smaller speakers, skulls, ears, have different frequency response curves.....
( Just rare you test not just you, but a large cross section of ages, backgrounds, people in the exact same environment )


Anyway, I hope this helps..... there is a LOT to know in all these areas.... and user manuals ( and 800 new pairs of near fields! ) always add to the learning..... Mastering & Mixing are the end of experience recording..... but learn all along.... something is new every day....

Try Headphones - less $, portable, for iPod earbud prices?

 

[CanadaRAM]

A friend of mine just got a pair of ADAM P11a's in his studio. The imaging is absolutely amazing, to die for, I want them - but his room has some problems (very hard / corner-y - needs some serious bass control) so I can't really talk about the low end. Despite room problems, it sounded extended (had some power in the 40-50hz range), if a bit large and undefined. Probably the room. But the ribbons! oh...

I'd never buy m-audio, behringer, etc. for monitors. They're too important, and you'll never see them in real studios... you're just shooting yourself in the foot with them. (and I'm not a gear snob in other areas - ie I have all kinds of "semi-junky" mics - but definitely not my speakers)

But in the context -- the OP is looking for affordable speakers, not ADAMs at $1500 each like a 'real' studio can install.

For the money, the ESI nEar 05s are good, and I have heard excellent things about the new E-mu PM5 Precision Monitors.

 

[jibberia]

Lao Tzu - I'm really curious about this notion that such long waveforms need a large space. I just don't really believe it. Maybe to allow resonances to occur, or for modes to be apparent... certainly I can believe that it's more *optimal* to have gigantic rooms for bass, but saying "A 40Hz ( Low E on Bass Guitar ) is actually a 4 foot wave form - it cannot be recorded, heard, or mic'd unless you move back 4 feet" is just simply not true (which you conceded... right?)

Still, if you have evidence - an academic paper, a book, an article - I'd love to see it.

For the record, I did my undergrad in music, music technology, engineering, and computer science at NYU. (ie i'm not a studio rat / hack)

 

[jibberia]

But in the context -- the OP is looking for affordable speakers, not ADAMs at $1500 each like a 'real' studio can install.

True.

Speaking of which, I wonder where the OP has been?

Oh. Banned. haha... I guess it's OK to be near completely off-topic then.

 

[zimv20]

These are complex topics.... they vary based upon so many variables... Yet, for example, not knowing what near field is..... is for.... or saying it doesn't mitigate room variance when that is all they are for.... is disturbing!

HOW can a sound source "mitigate room variance"? it's your ears that are at issue.

do this experiment: go into your kitchen. clap your hands 6" in front of your face. if you hear no echo/slapback/reverb, only the original signal, then you have magical ears which will translate only the first impulse and somehow ignore all the ensuing reflections.

if, like the other 6 billion people on the planet, you hear reflections from the room, then ask yourself how exactly is a speaker supposed to keep the room from reflecting its sound.

 

[gallagb]

20 grand a day types

hmmm- i should change jobs.