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maflynn

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I'm hearing a lot of positives for the newly released RTX 3060, though availability and scalpers are making this graphics card out of reach.

What is surprising is how well my RTX 2060 Super is able to hang with the 3060 in many areas. I was quasi tempted for the 3060 but at this point (especially with the price gouging) I'll hold off
 

Erehy Dobon

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The 3060 is an incremental improvement to the Turing generation -60 cards.

Note that the 3060 Ti is a far better gaming card over the 3060 due to its computational performance superiority and its wider memory bandwidth. The 3060 Ti is based on the GA104 GPU, the same GPU in the 3070 and 3080 Mobile.

The 3060 is the first card based on the GA106 GPU which has a much smaller die size, less memory bandwidth and fewer transistors.

If a videogamer could pay MSRP for either card, the 3060 Ti would be the one to get.

My hope is that Nvidia will eventually release a 3050 which would likely be a binned GA106 GPU part. I'd like one for my NZXT H1 which is not a gaming system.
 
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maflynn

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I'm not really looking, but its funny how Nvidia tried to make these cards less appealing to the crypto-currency but yet those folks are snapping them up.

I'm happy with what I have and see no little need to go after the 3060. It does look like Nvidia tried to make this a solid card for the masses though
 
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Erehy Dobon

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The most likely scenario is that the newly released cards are being swept up by a combination of buyers: OEM partners, scalpers, cryptocurrency miners, smaller system builders and individual consumers, maybe in that order (by quantity).

For sure they aren't being bought by one type of buyer. We have no idea what percentage end up in the hands of cryptocurrency miners. After all, they can easily buy a pre-built system, rip the GPU out of it and put it to use mining. My guess is that the scalpers couldn't care less if the top bid came from an individual videogamer or a miner.

It's quite possible that the cryptocurrency miners have hacked a way around Nvidia's "unbreakable" mining limitation.

Anyhow the FPS Review posted a favorable review of the EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 XC BLACK GAMING GPU from a videogaming perspective. This is a barebones design (there's no RGB and it doesn't even have a backplate) and the MSRP matches NVidia's $329.


I could see myself toying with the idea of picking one up at MSRP, but there's no way I'd pay $400 for a resolutely 1080p gaming card.
 
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diamond.g

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The most likely scenario is that the newly released cards are being swept up by a combination of buyers: OEM partners, scalpers, cryptocurrency miners, smaller system builders and individual consumers, maybe in that order (by quantity).

For sure they aren't being bought by one type of buyer. We have no idea what percentage end up in the hands of cryptocurrency miners. After all, they can easily buy a pre-built system, rip the GPU out of it and put it to use mining. My guess is that the scalpers couldn't care less if the top bid came from an individual videogamer or a miner.

It's quite possible that the cryptocurrency miners have hacked a way around Nvidia's "unbreakable" mining limitation.

Anyhow the FPS Review posted a favorable review of the EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 XC BLACK GAMING GPU from a videogaming perspective. This is a barebones design (there's no RGB and it doesn't even have a backplate) and the MSRP matches NVidia's $329.


I could see myself toying with the idea of picking one up at MSRP, but there's no way I'd pay $400 for a resolutely 1080p gaming card.
Yeah Nvidia is looking for specific hashing algo’s in driver. The coin the miners are using isn’t one of those hash types (I think it is Crypto Night hash it looks for).

So we are back to the cat and mouse game wrt performance nerfing.
 

I7guy

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Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
How do these “scalpers” and “crypto miners” jump the line in front of us average consumers? Do they make secret deals with the manufacturer to divert product?
 

Erehy Dobon

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They use 'bots to buy up all of the existing product the moment they are made available on retailer sites. That's why bricks-and-mortar stores still have occasional availability and long lines.

They may also be making deals with smaller system builders to buy some of their allocation. Of course, we'll never know; no one will admit to this and it wouldn't be illegal (well at least not here in the USA).

Note that scalpers are using 'bots as well for the latest videogame console hardware. Those devices are not employed by cryptocurrency miners.

Using 'bots is nothing new; it's a proven technique in other industries. Ticket scalpers have used them for years for concerts and events.
 
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maflynn

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How do these “scalpers” and “crypto miners”
The same way scalpers are scooping up PS5’s and Xbox X|S models. Bots!

I posted in the Xbox thread where one of the tracking websites showed inventory at target for mere seconds
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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The same way scalpers are scooping up PS5’s and Xbox X|S models. Bots!

I posted in the Xbox thread where one of the tracking websites showed inventory at target for mere seconds
How do us mere mortal consumers get on the bot bandwagon to be part of the fun? (Just wondering aloud)
 
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Erehy Dobon

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If you are (technically) crafty you might be able to set up your own 'bots.

There are apparently Discords that are tracking availability on behalf of video gamers and PC builders. Naturally the scalpers and miners have better 'bots so it is a cat-and-mouse game.

I believe EVGA set up a queue-based system for their own consumer-direct online store.

It's ultimately a supply-and-demand situation. It's not going to balance itself out until there is adequate supply -- something that industry watchers expect will not occur until late 2021 or early 2022.

Recently there has been slightly more availability of Ryzen Zen 3 CPUs, a promising sign. The GPU market is still very grim.

The PC hardware and PC gaming sites occasionally direct readers to potential availability. They do this more for the new videogame consoles though.
 
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maflynn

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How do us mere mortal consumers get on the bot bandwagon to be part of the fun? (Just wondering aloud)
You don't, and scalpers are not the only ones to worry about. Unlike the game consoles where chip shortages and scalpers make it impossible to buy a console - graphic cards also have crypto miners sucking up inventory.
 
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diamond.g

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Yeah Nvidia is looking for specific hashing algo’s in driver. The coin the miners are using isn’t one of those hash types (I think it is Crypto Night hash it looks for).

So we are back to the cat and mouse game wrt performance nerfing.
Whelp, I was sorta wrong, they did figure out how to mine ETH at full hash rate.
 
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maflynn

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Whelp, I was sorta wrong, they did figure out how to mine ETH at full hash rate.
Yeah, I heard that as well. All they needed was someone to leak the bios/driver source code from nvidia to custom build a bypass.

I'm not in the market for a gpu, since my 2060 super is good enough, but its a bummer that its so rare.
 
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max2

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Yeah, I heard that as well. All they needed was someone to leak the bios/driver source code from nvidia to custom build a bypass.

I'm not in the market for a gpu, since my 2060 super is good enough, but its a bummer that its so rare.

Same.

Have you seen how much 2060 super is selling for? Even used.
 

maflynn

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Have you seen how much 2060 super is selling for? Even used.
I can imagine, a premium, given the rarity of all GPUs and imo, the 2060 super had hit a sweet spot of performance and price
 
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mi7chy

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Oct 24, 2014
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6700xt released on the 18th is more interesting since it should compete closer to 3070 and has more potential for compatibility with hackintosh.
 

Erehy Dobon

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As I have stated before all older GPUs are currently running between 3x to 5x their street prices from last summer. Not just the 2060.

The low-end cards (RTX 2060, RTX 3060, RX560, etc.) are the most popular because they are the least expensive and thus have the largest market.

From a performance-per-watt perspective, the low-end cards are often are the best value which makes them very desirable to cryptocurrency miners who ultimately spend more on electricity than hardware.

The high-end models are priced at a premium for diminishing returns. This is not new to PC graphics cards nor is it limited to computer hardware for that matter.
 
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Erehy Dobon

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6700xt released on the 18th is more interesting since it should compete closer to 3070 and has more potential for compatibility with hackintosh.
That assumes that Apple will write a driver for the 6700XT which most certainly isn't a given as they transition all Macs to Apple Silicon.

In any case, Hackintoshing is a dead end. Hard to justify it at current GPU price levels.
 

mi7chy

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Oct 24, 2014
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That assumes that Apple will write a driver for the 6700XT which most certainly isn't a given as they transition all Macs to Apple Silicon.

In any case, Hackintoshing is a dead end. Hard to justify it at current GPU price levels.

Big Sur 11.3 rumored to include RDNA2 support. $479 MSRP is very reasonable. I know demand is high but you can still get them MSRP. Have 6800, 6900xt and 3090 FE here all MSRP. M1 will go first before x64+GPU and that's from someone who has M1.

https://the8-bit.com/macos-big-sur-11-3-radeon-rx-6800-6900-xt-support/
 

maflynn

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Erehy Dobon

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6700xt released on the 18th is more interesting since it should compete closer to 3070 and has more potential for compatibility with hackintosh.
PC gaming site RockPaperShotgun posted their review of the 6700 XT:


In a nutshell it is not properly priced. RPS thinks the 6700 XT's closest competition is the 3060 Ti, not the 3070 but the AMD card's $479 MSRP is $80 more than the 3060 Ti's $399.

RPS is not alone. The FPS Review also thinks the 3060 Ti is the 6700 XT’s competition:


At this point the 3060 Ti's advantage boils down to DLSS 2.0 (and price) whereas the 6700 XT is still waiting for AMD's competing FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR). The latter has been vaguely mentioned as coming later in 2021. And we don't know if FSR 1.0 will be any good; DLSS 1.0 had a rough rollout and it wasn't until version 2.0 that the feature really started to shine.

RPS says to hold off buying the 6700 XT until FSR's capabilities are better known.

Meanwhile Nvidia is marching along, offering DLSS 2.0 with an Unreal Engine plug-in that makes DLSS adoption easy:


Will Nvidia announce DLSS 3.0 before AMD ships FSR 1.0?
 
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mi7chy

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In a nutshell it is not properly priced. RPS thinks the 6700 XT's closest competition is the 3060 Ti, not the 3070 but the AMD card's $479 MSRP is $80 more than the 3060 Ti's $399.

At this point the 3060 Ti's advantage boils down to DLSS 2.0 (and price) whereas the 6700 XT is still waiting for AMD's competing FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR). The latter has been vaguely mentioned as coming later in 2021. And we don't know if FSR 1.0 will be any good; DLSS 1.0 had a rough rollout and it wasn't until version 2.0 that the feature really started to shine.

Personally, I give zero care for DLSS fake upscaled resolution with artifacts. Rasterization performance is #1 and raytracing is somewhat interesting but reality is not many games support it, it negatively impacts FPS and a lot of times you can't even notice the difference.

6700xt rasterization performance slots in between 3070 and 3060ti while competing pricewise with 3060. 3060 had a target msrp of $329 but when it launched prices hovered more around $500. 3060ti is impossible to find at $399 and is closer to $600. If I had to choose between 6700xt, 3060ti and 3060 I'd go with 6700xt but given other options I'd pay a little more for 6800 which I think is the sweet spot.
 
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Erehy Dobon

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If DLSS was a sham the various PC hardware and game review sites would be in disagreement over the validity of the feature.

That is simply not the case in 2021. DLSS 2.0 is universally regarded as a functional technology. The DLSS 1.0 doubters have all shelved their objections.

Reputable review sites such as Tom's Hardware, The FPS Review, PC Gamer have all done detailed analyses of various games with DLSS off, Ray Tracing (RT) on/DLSS off, and RT on/DLSS on. In every review, DLSS has been shown to help with framerates markedly without a large dropoff in image quality.

Remember that DLSS 2.0 comes in three modes: Quality (maximum image quality improvement, lowest framerate increase), Balanced, and Performance (lowest image quality improvement, maximum framerate performance). What you do with DLSS is up to you to decide just like pretty much any other graphics feature (shadow quality, model quality, texture quality, et cetera ad nauseam).

If DLSS was an obvious farce AMD would not be putting so much effort into developing FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR) whose release has been pushed back to "later 2021" (which to me sounds like November). They would have already released some retarded sharpening code called FSR and called it a day.

Note that analyzing one still frame capture with DLSS 2.0 on and DLSS off isn't particularly relevant. You're playing games at 60, 120, 165 fps (or more) and you won't be able to detect slight artifacting along one line in one corner of one image. Your eyes WILL notice a 15 fps increase in performance.

We have yet to see if AMD can nail FSR on the first try. I have my own prediction about that which I will keep private for now.

As for your ability to recognize quality ray tracing, I have to shrug my shoulders. Ray tracing is not new technology. There are clear examples going back to the Eighties. It was all pre-rendered back then, no real time stuff until the emergence of powerful 3D workstations from SGI and others in the Nineties.

Clearly, you have not played a quality game like Control with RT on/DLSS on. That is a marvelous example of ray tracing since the environment is full of glass surfaces, wet floors, etc. If some other games that have ray-tracing don't show that image quality difference, that simply shows that some developers really need to spend a little more time at polishing their craft. The troubled Cyberpunk 2077 is pretty much universally applauded for the effectiveness of its use of ray-tracing on PC.

Again if RT was fraudulent, AMD would not have dedicated so much real estate on their die for a bunch of RT cores. If rasterization was the only valid 3D graphics computational workload then they would have gone whole hog that way.

Tom's Hardware is a little more complimentary of the 6700 XT than RPS:


but still says the 3060 Ti is a better deal

"If all of the Nvidia Ampere and AMD RDNA2 GPUs were available at prices close to MSRP, the RX 6700 XT would look a bit overpriced. It's basically a match for the RTX 3060 Ti, without the option for DLSS and weaker ray tracing performance, at an $80 price premium. Calling this an RTX 3070 competitor is a bit too ambitious, unless you limit testing to AMD-promoted games like Assassin's Creed Valhalla, Borderlands 3, Dirt 5, etc. "

Either you compare street prices across the board or compare MSRPs across the board. You can't mix-and-match to justify whatever point you're trying to prove.

Remember that eventually pricing will fall back to MSRP. Maybe not in 2021 but likely sometime in 2022. There are still ways to score a Big Navi or Ampere card right now at or near MSRP but it takes a little luck.

Based on AMD's own actions clearly they think that ray tracing and machine-learning super sampling image improvement technology (FSR for them) are worth baking into their silicon.

That's something no one can deny.
 
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