Schematics Allegedly Reveal M7 Successor Chip 'Phosphorus'

[peterdevries]

With their wallet, about as far as they want.

Nonsense, you obviously don´t know how the FDA and other regulatory organisations work. Big pharma with bulging pockets are struggling with the FDA every step of the way. They would be the first to buy them out of their processes, but they can´t. Money is not a factor in this.

There are very strict regulations for medical devices that are applicable to all, also Apple. Deviating from those for money would set a dangerous precedent and would make additional rules necessary in an environment that already is complicated enough as it is.

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that's a great question, i would assume as long as they don't claim that their product can heal or cure you of a disease they wouldn't really ever need approval.

No, it goes beyond that. Apple or any manufacturer needs approval for devices that are classed as medical devices. Examples are point of care devices such as blood pressure monitors or blood glucose monitors. These do not claim to heal or cure but assist in the management of diseases such as hypertension and diabetes.

 

[KeepCalmPeople]

Here is what you and everyone else like you desperately needs to understand: The insurance companies are not your friend. In any given situation, they will almost always choose to screw over the customer—especially if it saves them a cent. It's even worse that the insurance companies are now in bed with the federal government. We've already learned over the past few years that we can't trust our federal government in any capacity (regardless of party). Are you so naive to believe that the federal government doesn't want to get it's dirty paws all over our personal health records? They're trying to grab up as much information as possible to use against us. I'm tired of a nanny state where everything I do must be monitored "for my own good" or "because it will save me money." I have plenty of money because I don't blow my savings on stupid crap like 95% of our society does. My wife and I budget and are responsible adults. I'm tired of our society preventing people, businesses—everyone from failing. Failure is a fundamental part of being a human and necessary for healthy development and growth. Comparisons to alarm systems is a straw man argument. We're talking about being forced into (or pay the consequences) having to wear personal monitoring devices like some kind of a prisoner. Insurance companies might give a discount at first—but soon that rate will inch up and become the baseline. Those who don't hook into the monitoring system will be paying much more than baseline. I, for one, don't really like the idea of having to pay a "privacy tax" just because you millennials love blasting your personal information all over the place. BTW I'm in my late 20s, so technically a millennial. But I don't buy into their mindset.

So, what's your solution? You dislike an intrusive, spying government and you dislike for-profit private medical insurance companies - so are you against public healthcare? Or against private healthcare?

 

[kdarling]

This is not a problem with the M7 since that's not what the M7 is designed to do. That's a problem with how odometers have worked since day one, there's nothing's new in that regard. They all interpret the data collected by the sensors differently. The M7 chip doesn't to the interpretation, it only collects data from the sensors. It does this whether the main CPU is sleeping or not, and the applications that uses the data doesn't have to be running for the collection of data.

Actually, the iOS Core Motion API does provide a step count for iPhones with the M7 (however apparently it does not provide that info for iPads with the M7).

Whether the interpretation is done by the M7 itself, or the main processor from the data that the M7 collected, is unclear.

The problem with the m7 currently is that individual apps seem to have to interpret its movement data. I can get wildly different step counts between apps using the m7 as the data source. Makes it kind of useless.

It all depends on whether or not the apps are using the step count provided by the OS. If they do, then they should all be in sync.

However, some apps have their own step analysis code that predates the M7, and they might be still using that in order to work on more devices.

Interesting that the codename is phosphorous. Perhaps a play on pure phosphorous' reaction to oxygen (atmosphere)?

Ah, good one.

Are there any obvious medical uses for such sensors where you wouldn't require an external accessory for a more direct measurement?

I can't think of any. I doubt it has anything to do with health.

I find myself wondering how much reliance they can use on weather data pulled from the network. But then that puts me back to questioning why they would include the pressure sensor, so I don't know. It would be quite cool to see a phone monitor those conditions and alert the user to storm-like conditions when things rapidly change.

We had a big discussion about this not long ago. See this thread:

Evidence of iPhone 6 Atmospheric Pressure Sensor Found in iOS 8

The upshot is that, while of course it can be used for things like weather, pilot calculators, hiking apps, etc... instead I think the main reason for Apple including such a sensor, would be indoor navigation.

Apple has bought a lot of indoor nav companies, and these sensors can easily tell that you've moved between floors by the relative change in pressure.

 

[peterdevries]

I can't think of any. I doubt it has anything to do with health.

There are some such as posture control. We are working with some pharmaceutical companies that want to monitor the posture of patients with diseases that affect movement, such as parkinson´s disease, ADD and others. They are interested in using smartphones to keep tabs on the posture / movement of their patients and correlate that data to when medicine was taken.

 

[leecbaker]

It's almost certainly a pressure sensor, which Apple would likely use for indoor/outdoor navigation and weather apps.

(Too bad the chip has a BMP prefix, and not BME. The latter also includes humidity and temperature sensors.)

I'm not sure the temperature sensor would be very useful. Inside the device, there are certainly several other temperature sensors for monitoring individual components, and I think the phone generates enough heat at times that any temperature sensor inside the phone wouldn't generate useful measurements of the outside temperature.

If the iPhone could measure humidity, what would Apple use it for? Certainly Apple knows they could have this capability, but didn't include it because they didn't have a use for it. No use having extra capabilities that add to the BOM cost and possibly drain more battery.

--

Since Bosch included spirometry as a possible application, that really got me thinking. Is there a way that Apple could measure your breathing when the phone is near your face? Could that information be useful? I could see having this sensor in the headphones (near the clicker) as a great way to pick up more health data. This schematic definitely not for the headphones.

Another health related thing I was considering: can you use the infrared sensor on the front of the phone (the one used to sense proximity) to measure heartbeat using spectral amplification, similar to this camera approach? The xbox one already does it, and it might be possible with the single photosensor they use (as resolution isn't really all that important for this application.

 

[macduke]

So, what's your solution? You dislike an intrusive, spying government and you dislike for-profit private medical insurance companies - so are you against public healthcare? Or against private healthcare?

There is no solution because the solution is nearly impossible. The solution is for citizens to wake up and vote out our current corrupt leaders. The new leaders would pass legislation that makes lobbying illegal. The new leaders would reign in black budgets so that organizations like the NSA can no longer go unchecked. That's also improbable because the NSA now has zero oversight. It's nearly impossible to know the extent of that organization without more whistle blowers. This would require the new leaders to pass legislation that would provide protection for whistle blowers instead of labeling them as traitors. There are too many nearly impossible things that must happen. If you can somehow get those nearly impossible things to happen, THEN make a real public healthcare system—not the half-assed one we have now. Reform the tax code so that corporations can't hide their money tax-free overseas. While they're at it, reform the entire tax code because the current one doesn't work. I'm not sure the answer to that one, but I've always thought it would be intriguing to have a sales-tax only system. It's impossible to know the exact way that would fall, but my theory is this: Rich people spend more, poor people spend less. Tax the necessities at a lower sales tax rate, such as 15-20%. Everything else is higher, around 30%. Don't base it on how much people make—except for a graduated scale for investment earnings. For instance, the first $10,000 is tax free, and it goes up from there so that the super rich are paying a higher tax rate on their billion dollar portfolios. That would encourage the average citizen to begin investing as they could get that $10,000/yr tax-free. All of those other tax changes would do a number of things, such as encourage people to save money instead of buying frivolous crap they don't need. But one might argue the economy would be impacted. Yes, at first. One could argue our economy is largely based on people buying crap they don't need. But for a healthy, long-term sustainable economy, we need to get back to people having saving accounts and investing in their home and communities like they used to. Instead of giving people (who are able to work) handouts, we should be creating public services jobs for these people in their local communities. Or funding local organizations who help people get back on their feet. Teach these people to "fish". Again, I'm not an economist. Just a guy with some different ideas—and what we do need, at least, is some different thinking because the current thinking is corrupt and falling apart. I'm very open to alternative suggestions, but I'm getting quite off-topic. Out of respect for the forum, anyone who wants to discuss this further can PM me. Thanks!

 

[chrmjenkins]

I'm not sure the temperature sensor would be very useful. Inside the device, there are certainly several other temperature sensors for monitoring individual components, and I think the phone generates enough heat at times that any temperature sensor inside the phone wouldn't generate useful measurements of the outside temperature.

And it would be problematic to de-embed the internal temperatures from their measurements, absolutely.

If the iPhone could measure humidity, what would Apple use it for? Certainly Apple knows they could have this capability, but didn't include it because they didn't have a use for it. No use having extra capabilities that add to the BOM cost and possibly drain more battery.

They already have a humidity sensor. The strip of paper to detect water damage.

--

Since Bosch included spirometry as a possible application, that really got me thinking. Is there a way that Apple could measure your breathing when the phone is near your face? Could that information be useful? I could see having this sensor in the headphones (near the clicker) as a great way to pick up more health data. This schematic definitely not for the headphones.

Another health related thing I was considering: can you use the infrared sensor on the front of the phone (the one used to sense proximity) to measure heartbeat using spectral amplification, similar to this camera approach? The xbox one already does it, and it might be possible with the single photosensor they use (as resolution isn't really all that important for this application.

Perhaps they could improve that existing method with the camera. I'm sure they have a trade with regards to ease of use and repeatability over whether to let the phone do it or recommend an accessory add-on to do it.

 

[73b]

Is it fair that people get energy discounts for owning more expensive appliances that are more efficient? Or get better insurance premiums for having an alarm system in their house or car? There are a million different incentives for discounts on insurance premiums. And if this is true, it's just another one.

Both of those are actually saving. The expensive appliances use less and therefore cost less to run, and an alarm system lowers the risk of break-ins/protects belongings so the insurance company theoretically will spend less on its client. However, in this case, there could be two people of equally good health. One has an iPhone 6 while the other has some other smartphone. The person with the iPhone 6 is not healthier than the other, and in theory not costing the insurance company more money. Why should he have the lower premium?

 

[cocky jeremy]

Not only. Would it be right for someone to have access to a lower premium just because they own an expensive phone?

Yes. Not that iPhones are really expensive.

 

[kdarling]

There are some such as posture control.

That's pretty cool.

I thought the question was about health uses for a air pressure sensor without any external accessories, such as a breathing straw for spirometry.

Disregarding accessories, and thinking about it more, just knowing the surrounding pressure could help with health apps. E.g. when living or hiking at higher altitudes.

And it would be problematic to de-embed the internal temperatures from their measurements, absolutely.

Other phones have had ambient temperature sensors. The Galaxy S4 had one and apparently it also had an internal sensor to help keep it accurate.

Between barometric pressure and temperature, you could calculate the density altitude, which is handy for pilots, and likely for athletes as well.

They already have a humidity sensor. The strip of paper to detect water damage.

Heh. That's actually a use for a humidity sensor on the iPhone: it could warn all those people who use it in humid bathrooms

Otherwise, it's also useful for weather stuff of course, and Samsung used theirs as an input to their S-Health app to ascertain the current ambient comfort level.

Bosch also says it's useful to tell if you've moved between rooms (or more likely, inside to outside).

 

[MacSince1990]

M7 tracks steps and user motion and stores the information at a tremendously lower power consumption than the main processor, and even works when the phone is powered off.

Ohhhh lol. That's actually really cool

I guess previous iPhones just used the main CPU for that..? Cause they had motion tracking/Nike capabilities... at least mine claims to.

 

[chrmjenkins]

Heh. That's actually a use for a humidity sensor on the iPhone: it could warn all those people who use it in humid bathrooms

They have an ad that shows someone reaching out of the shower to change a song, so clearly they condone using it in steamy bathrooms

 

[kdarling]

I guess previous iPhones just used the main CPU for that..? Cause they had motion tracking/Nike capabilities... at least mine claims to.

Yep, previous iPhones used the main CPU. Actually, some apps still prefer to do their own accelerometer processing to determine steps and other movement.

--

Coprocessors are a time honored way to off-load work, and they were an obvious addition to smartphones.

• Samsung started using an Atmel sensor hub back with the Note II in 2012.
  
• Motorola used TI pieces in 2013 for their X8 coprocessor that also listens for voice commands.
  
• Apple came out in later 2013 with their M7, which is actually a processor from NXP.
  
• Nokia, HTC, and others also have such sensor hubs.

They have an ad that shows someone reaching out of the shower to change a song, so clearly they condone using it in steamy bathrooms

Oh man. Don't tell my daughter!

 

[JAQ]

I agree macduke has somewhat of an alarmist tone, but there is a grain of truth in what he says. People need to remain diligent about their privacy.

Right, but it's keeping it in perspective that marks the difference between caution and tin-foil-hat paranoia. Not coincidentally, the folks who are most wrapped up in their own fears tend to be least empathic about others.

 

[Casiotone]

Great work. I had been questioning the legitimacy of these "schematic" leaks, but the presence of this new part definitely suggests it could be legitimate.

I was independently looking at the NXP line of chips to see if there was on obvious successor, then I came back and saw your great post, so no need to waste my breath there.

Interesting that the codename is phosphorous. Perhaps a play on pure phosphorous' reaction to oxygen (atmosphere)?



Are there any obvious medical uses for such sensors where you wouldn't require an external accessory for a more direct measurement? Could be the reason perhaps.

Wish I had seen your post before making mine as I would've replied to you first.

The closest link I found is that if you shake a mercury filled barometer, it will emit light, a phenomenon which was described as "the new phosphorus" back when it was discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometric_light

 

[cmaier]

The problem with the m7 currently is that individual apps seem to have to interpret its movement data. I can get wildly different step counts between apps using the m7 as the data source. Makes it kind of useless.

No they don't. The SDK allows you to query for step counts (for a time interval, or updated at a non-specific interval), and activities (was I running? walking? in a car? what time did each activity start and end?) All apps that use the m7 produce the same step counts. The place you sometimes screw up is if the person who coded the app handles time wrong. (e.g., if you want to know how many steps TODAY, you have to ask for the start of the interval to be local midnight, and with timezones, daylight time, etc. sometimes the app messes up by an hour or messes up if you cross timezones during the day). But the SDK always produces the same step count for the same interval to every app that asks. I've tested this in my own app, the health app, and Pedometer+. They all match.

 

[alecc131]

Could Phosphorous also be used as the brains behind a solar charging Sapphire screen?

 

[kdarling]

Could Phosphorous also be used as the brains behind a solar charging Sapphire screen?

Phosphorus is just an atmospheric air pressure gauge.

Like an altimeter or barometer.

 

[cmaier]

Phosphorus is just an atmospheric air pressure gauge.

Like an altimeter or barometer.

Could Phosphorus be a floor wax and a dessert topping?

 

[kdarling]

Could Phosphorus be a floor wax and a dessert topping?

Yes, but then it would be named "Shimmer"

 

[captain kaos]

Luckily that UPDATE was added to the piece, as i was suddenly thinking it would mean you'd need to have a iphone 6 to get any of the health apps working (the M7 was one of the reasons i went from a 5 to a 5s). I'd be p***ed if it didn't work with the health kit!

 

[cmaier]

Luckily that UPDATE was added to the piece, as i was suddenly thinking it would mean you'd need to have a iphone 6 to get any of the health apps working (the M7 was one of the reasons i went from a 5 to a 5s). I'd be p***ed if it didn't work with the health kit!

Although M7 works with health kit, it doesn't do much (the health app gets the step count), and what it does isn't necessary (the normal way healthkit should work is that any app can populate the healthkit database. It can do this using any data acquisition method it wishes - be it user input, querying the M7 (or the M8, which will clearly do stairflight counting), or synchronizing with some other device (fitbit, withings scale, etc.) Once the app fetches the info, it can put it in healthkit. HealthKit is really essentially a smart database.

 

[MattInOz]

Could Phosphorus be a floor wax and a dessert topping?

Wouldn't house burn down when the natural carrier wax starts to break down?

 

[cmaier]

Wouldn't house burn down when the natural carrier wax starts to break down?

Only if it's white phosphorus.

Is that racist?

 

[Gutwrench]

Great job leecbaker.