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ApplesAreSweet&Sour

macrumors 68000
Sep 18, 2018
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6 years of OS updates seems pretty good to me. The difference in the A chip launched this fall (A16), is drastically more powerful than what would be dropped (A10). It’s got to happen at some point, and that seems very fair.

Also, I would not wait years to buy a device. I would always buy the current one. If you’re going to wait years to buy, it’s well worth the investment to buy current (like a MacBook Air upgraded getting the M2 Air just released). It is not worth getting M1 or getting previous Intel models. You’re that much closer to obsolescence from the start.
Agree -Any computer launched in 2017 is about 5 years old now in terms of components. It doesn't become 4 years old just because you waited 1 year and bought it in 2018.

And there's not set number of updates that you are guaranteed even if Apple is notorious for having supported some devices for many years.
 
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babyexercise

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Oct 1, 2021
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The definition of "no support" referred to here is specifically "no support for iOS 16". It's not "no support altogether", that's not what it's implying.

These devices will still get security updates from time to time making them perfectly good to use even if you can't get all the new features of future iOS updates.


This wiki clearly shows that iPhone 7 support is ending, there is no continue security update or whatever, this is what Apple does.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
31,616
Not allowing iOS16 (with reduced features if need be) seems a bit arbitrary given what the update looks to be (not much really).. and the list of iPads that are nearly the same hardware that are being brought along, etc..

That said, I'm planning to ride my SE fleet right off into the sunset on iOS 15 as long as it's viable to do so
(3rd party sortware support will be the thing at some point I'm sure)

I think I've got, conservatively, until Fall 2023 before it will even be a concern honestly.

I'm still hopeful that Apple will do an SE model in the design language of the Mini at some point.
Maybe an SE and SE Max?
 

Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
1,643
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https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222

The thing with security updates is that Apple only does them if they are deemed necessary. So it's usually not big news or something you can expect to happen at regular intervals.
Security updates don’t mean much in terms of app support. If you want your phone to be useful as a smartphone, you require developers to update their apps on your older iOS firmware. This is why Netflix, Disney+, banking, social media apps and even websites become unusable on older devices that have lost support.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
31,616
Security updates don’t mean much in terms of app support. If you want your phone to be useful as a smartphone, you require developers to update their apps on your older iOS firmware.

This is really the key on how long folks can functionally use devices no longer carried along on current iOS

I wish more folks would understand that. I keep seeing people talking about "security updates", which is a much more useful way to think about it on macOS, where the most current software version isn't really targeted/enforced in the same way by developers.

Once you get more than one iOS out of date (so iOS 17 is current and you're on 15)...the wheels can quickly fall off due to third party App support.
 
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Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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This is really the key on how long folks can functionally use devices no longer carried along on current iOS

I wish more folks would understand that. I keep seeing people talking about "security updates", which is a much more useful way to think about it on macOS, where the absolute current software version isn't really targeted in the same way by developers.

Once you get more than one iOS out of date (so iOS 17 is current and you're on 15)...the wheels can quickly fall off due to third party App support.
That’s why I don’t consider security updates proper updates. Once iOS 16 is out, the SE, 6S and 7 are all unsupported by Apple. Third party app developers, as you say, tend to provide additional support of around a year to an older version of iOS. After that, the phone is pretty much useless as a smartphone.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
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@Andeddu

Agreed. Apple really doesn't do users many favors either, as they don't really even make any effort to update their own stock apps for older iOS versions where possible/sensible.

Messages comes to mind. That's a critical app for users and it'd be really nice to see updates to those kinds of Apps not have any tie-in with specific iOS versions necessarily.

Have they ever done that and I've missed it?

(brought out updates to 1st party key apps that are on older iOS versions)
 
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Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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@Andeddu

Agreed. Apple really doesn't do users many favors either, as they don't really even make any effort to update their own stock apps for older iOS versions where possible/sensible.

Messages comes to mind. That's a critical app for users and it'd be really nice to see updates to those kinds of Apps not have any tie-in with specific iOS versions necessarily.

Have they ever done that and I've missed it?

(brought out updates to 1st party key apps that are on older iOS versions)
No, they don’t update their own apps on their much older and outdated versions of iOS. My iPad Mini 4, which is second fiddle to my iPad Mini 5, was on iOS 12 until the beginning of this year. The version of Safari on it couldn’t even use a lot of modern plugins and much of the video streaming within the browser didn’t work. It was also painfully slow. Things got a lot better when I finally updated it to iOS 15 which is the last supported operating system for it.

Messages and FaceTime, I believe, required an update to become usable too. I think Apple may provide support on their apps for another year like third party developers do.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
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So basically, Apple could just as reasonably (more honestly) say that "you have an extra year left" when they drop a device from current iOS support.

I suspect the only reason they don't is to simply have some ambiguity and deniability in the "forced obsolescence" discussions.

Kind of crummy.

(Please everyone spare me the "it's better than Andriod!" non starter, totally useless, data point)
 

babyexercise

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Oct 1, 2021
1,247
684
@Andeddu

Agreed. Apple really doesn't do users many favors either, as they don't really even make any effort to update their own stock apps for older iOS versions where possible/sensible.

Messages comes to mind. That's a critical app for users and it'd be really nice to see updates to those kinds of Apps not have any tie-in with specific iOS versions necessarily.

Have they ever done that and I've missed it?

(brought out updates to 1st party key apps that are on older iOS versions)

Safari is not updated once cannot upgrade to latest iOS, this is a big security problem for unsupported iPhone or iPad.

So basically, Apple could just as reasonably (more honestly) say that "you have an extra year left" when they drop a device from current iOS support.

I suspect the only reason they don't is to simply have some ambiguity and deniability in the "forced obsolescence" discussions.

Kind of crummy.

(Please everyone spare me the "it's better than Andriod!" non starter, totally useless, data point)

One year left is just what people believe, no one knows when there is a security hole found out in an outdated no supported iOS.
 
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Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
1,643
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So basically, Apple could just as reasonably (more honestly) say that "you have an extra year left" when they drop a device from current iOS support.

I suspect the only reason they don't is to simply have some ambiguity and deniability in the "forced obsolescence" discussions.

Kind of crummy.

(Please everyone spare me the "it's better than Andriod!" non starter, totally useless, data point)
I genuinely believe there are going to be some big updates on iOS 16 given that the 8 and X are both running cut-down versions of the operating system. I personally wouldn’t want my SE’16 running like garbage on an operating system that pushes the hardware a step too far. I think it was the iPhone 5 that was given one too many updates and became painful to use — sometimes it’s better to see our devices die gracefully.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
31,616
I genuinely believe there are going to be some big updates on iOS 16 given that the 8 and X are both running cut-down versions of the operating system. I personally wouldn’t want my SE’16 running like garbage on an operating system that pushes the hardware a step too far. I think it was the iPhone 5 that was given one too many updates and became painful to use.

Maybe... but what & when would that be if they didn't announce it at WWDC?

All of this of course wouldn't be as much of a problem if it were optional, perhaps with some stripped down/disabled features...and if you could simply downgrade iOS if you'd like. I really believe they should allow downgrading at least on now abandoned devices.


It would also be less of a problem if every new iPhone now wasn't "medium", "large" and "huge"
 

Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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Maybe... but what & when would that be if they didn't announce it at WWDC?

All of this of course wouldn't be as much of a problem if it were optional, perhaps with some stripped down/disabled features...and if you could simply downgrade iOS if you'd like. I really believe they should allow downgrading at least on now abandoned devices.


It would also be less of a problem if every new iPhone now wasn't "medium", "large" and "huge"
I am no programmer so I can’t say for sure, I just know that even the powerful A11 Bionic, which is considerably more powerful than the A9, cannot run a fully fledged version of iOS 16. Apple got a huge backlash when they released iOS 9(?) on the iPhone 5 because all the apps ran like treacle. Perhaps they do not want a repeat of that incident.

I agree that the biggest problem with cutting support for the SE is that there is no other phone with the same dimensions available to replace it.
 
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Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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Maybe... but what & when would that be if they didn't announce it at WWDC?

All of this of course wouldn't be as much of a problem if it were optional, perhaps with some stripped down/disabled features...and if you could simply downgrade iOS if you'd like. I really believe they should allow downgrading at least on now abandoned devices.


It would also be less of a problem if every new iPhone now wasn't "medium", "large" and "huge"
I am no programmer so I can’t say for sure, I just know that even the mighty A11 Bionic, which is considerably more powerful than the A9, cannot run a fully fledged version of iOS 16. Apple got a huge backlash when they released iOS 9(?) on the iPhone 5 because all the apps ran like treacle. Perhaps they do not want a repeat of that incident.

I agree that the biggest problem with cutting support for the SE is that there is no other phone available with the same or similar dimensions.
 
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FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
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That is not correct. There is no set support timeline for Apple products. iPhones have so far had between 3 and 6 years of iOS updates, and if we talk hardware support then it goes up to 7 years I believe. And it gets even wilder when you include non-iPhone products.
Sure it’s correct. “Support” means Apple provides hardware & software support. Not that it can run the latest version of iOS. Look, the iPhone SE was an entry-level phone, based on the iPhone 6s released before it. It won’t run iOS 16, even phones released AFTER the SE1 won’t run iOS 16. There’s gonna be a cut-off and that line will vary depending on hardware.

Sometimes phones (or Macs) continue receiving OS updates after “Support” ends, which is ALWAYS at 5 years after discontinuation. Sometimes they stop receiving OS updates before their support ends - but the device doesn’t stop working! It continues performing the same functions it always did.

Edit - and yes, it is 7 years - in California, and Turkey. Everywhere else, it’s 5 years.
 
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Andeddu

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2016
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Sure it’s correct. “Support” means Apple provides hardware & software support. Not that it can run the latest version of iOS. Look, the iPhone SE was an entry-level phone, based on the iPhone 6s released before it. It won’t run iOS 16, even phones released AFTER the SE1 won’t run iOS 16. There’s gonna be a cut-off and that line will vary depending on hardware.

Sometimes phones (or Macs) continue receiving OS updates after “Support” ends, which is ALWAYS at 5 years after discontinuation. Sometimes they stop receiving OS updates before their support ends - but the device doesn’t stop working! It continues performing the same functions it always did.

Edit - and yes, it is 7 years - in California, and Turkey. Everywhere else, it’s 5 years.
Not true. Try watching Netflix, Disney+ or the YouTube app, or doing your online banking or even obtaining a half decent browsing experience on a device that has been unsupported for 1-2+ years. A lot of those apps will cease to function and you will be met with a message to update to the latest version of iOS.
 

NewUsername

macrumors 6502a
Aug 20, 2019
581
1,272
I'm not sure why people keep saying Apple is going to provide 2 extra years of security updates for phones.

Apple has never stated or done this. If you're thinking of iOS 12, Apple provided a few select security updates over about a year. They weren't consistent or guaranteed in any way. Some were just for the COVID tracking and they only did this because they were under heavy pressure.

I would except nothing for iOS 15 after 16 is released.
Apple never stated it, but they have been supporting the three latest versions of macOS for a very long time, so you can basically be sure to get two extra years of security updates.

For iOS, it’s less clear. So far, only iOS 12 has got two extra years of support like macOS. However, iOS 13, 14 and 15 all have the same system requirements, so perhaps Apple only gives two years extra support if it’s the last iOS version for a certain device. In that case, iOS 15 most likely will also have two extra years of support just like iOS 12, but we can’t know for sure.
 

FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
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Not true. Try watching Netflix, Disney+ or the YouTube app, or doing your online banking or even obtaining a half decent browsing experience on a device that has been unsupported for 1-2+ years. A lot of those apps will cease to function and you will be met with a message to update to the latest version of iOS.
Eventually, sure. “1-2” years…. Probably not, but I’m sure a few apps would drop support within that time frame. At some point technology GETS OLD. That’s just how it goes. Even if the app doesn’t require the horsepower - there’s a diminishing return on tasking developers & testers to ensure that, say, a book reading app will continue to support back very many versions.

My mom is still using an iPad mini 1st generation, running iOS 9.3.5. Are there things it won’t do? Sure. But it suits her purposes.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
31,616
Even if the app doesn’t require the horsepower - there’s a diminishing return on tasking developers & testers to ensure that, say, a book reading app will continue to support back very many versions.

The one problem I have with that, is this is supposed to be a big reason/benefit of being forced onto subscription services left and right.

If I'm paying an ongoing subscription to an App developer, I expect very wide and far reaching App and iOS version support -- not just "whatever is new and convenient for them". That's BS
 

FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
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The one problem I have with that, is this is supposed to be a big reason/benefit of being forced onto subscription services left and right.

If I'm paying an ongoing subscription to an App developer, I expect very wide and far reaching App and iOS version support -- not just "whatever is new and convenient for them". That's BS
Yeah, and subscription services are going to be MORE likely to continue to support older versions. As long as they have enough subscribers using the older version, it’s in their best interests to do so. That’s just generally speaking of course, YMMV.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,802
31,616
Yeah, and subscription services are going to be MORE likely to continue to support older versions. As long as they have enough subscribers using the older version, it’s in their best interests to do so. That’s just generally speaking of course, YMMV.

The YMMV is the problem

We'll see -- the power dynamic totally flips when Devs no longer have to worry about enticing a broad base of folks to buy an upgrade. They can just tell people "supported on latest iOS only" and the only recourse is "stop using the service"

(not really an "option" of much value)
 

FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
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We'll see -- the power dynamic totally flips when Devs no longer have to worry about enticing a broad base of folks to buy an upgrade. They can just tell people "supported on latest iOS only" and the only recourse is "stop using the service"
I guess… but of course, at that point you stop paying for the subscription ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The market will fix itself. If there’s a buildup of devices that only run iOS 15 for several years, the companies that support iOS 15 - will get the money!
 
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