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So did Apple give up on gaming?
- Thread starter KatieKat1942
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Users can't demand studios to make the port though.
One of the first steps for Apple is to give some AAA studios a big bag of money and have them port their games to the mac. Ie. Bethesda's new Elder Scroll game, Rockstar's new GTA, it would be a big push in the right direction since their games have a huge user base.
Another step would be for Apple to create a translation layer, much like proton in linux, to be able to play all games without much hassle for the gamer or developer.
Of course they do. Users are the ones who buy games. If Mac users loudly demand that they would buy a game it it were available on their platform a studio will consider it.
Eh, maybe. I am not 100% confident.
IMO, that's not as good an idea as it sounds. Compatibility layers encourage lazy ports and move the support burden from the developer to the maintainer of the compatibility layer. Besides, you loose initiative. Apple wants the devs to use the unique capabilities of their hardware that no other GPU can do properly and that would give games large wins on Apple platforms. A well working compatibility layer instead encourages the developer to ignore all these features. This already starts happening with Linux and Proton. Expect fewer native Linux games in the future, as the devs can just use DX12 and optimize for Windows only, letting Valve figure out the rest.
This largely won't work. Just look at Sony's PS3 Cell chip, with revolutionary capabilities, underused it's entire existance, except for a few exclusives. From then on PS4 and Xbox are basically boring PC's in a little box with zero unique abilities. This way developers have it easy and it becomes more a money game of contracts who gets what game to what platform at what time.
Games need a homogeneous environment to thrive, to generate the most sales and make it worthwhile for the investors. Only exclusives, either by hardware or contract, that are so good, people are willing to buy your hardware to experience it, might work for Apple. And usually that only works when there is a track record so people know "This studio's next game is going to be on Apple only, I just might get one to play it." An example would be Bloodborne, where people bought a playstation4 just to play this game. A studio making exclusives for Apple would need to be compensated for lost revenue from the PC space by Apple. Why else would they make a game exclusive to 10% of users in the hope it might grow to 25%? Even if their hardware promises 10 times the power.
The translation layer, maintained by Apple themselves, would be the only quick solution to give people an incentive to start gaming on Apple hardware. You'd want to give the user access to the biggest library. Otherwise Apple games will always be some sort of 'add-on', while PC and consoles dominate.
Not a good comparison. Cell was very complicated to program and required total rethinking of how you approach software design. Apple GPUs are a pleasure to program and give you more tools in expressing your intent without jumping through weird hoops (like non-deterministic nature of immediate mode rasterizers).
You won't get a more homogenous environment than Apple Silicon. It's basically a console but with different performance tires. Same capabilities, same programming model, develop on the iPad run on the Mac Pro kind of thing.
Now, I do hear you. I know that this is not what you mean with homogenous environment. And I understand that you are saying that the requirement to use Metal and maybe even reimplement some of the algorithms with TBDR in mind is an additional strain on the developer's resources. However, that's the thing: this all starts and begins with the application design. Making use of multiple APIs and targeting different hardware is not actually that much of a burden (most of the time). You just need to understand different platforms and design your system accordingly from the start. Developing on one platform and then porting to a different platform is never a good idea and it almost never works. Developing for multiple platforms simultaneously — now that's something different.
Besides, current studios already have to develop for multiple platforms. They have to develop for multiple generations of hardware by different vendors, each with their own drier bugs and idiosyncratic behavior. A unified API only gives you an impression that things are easier. You still have to debug and likely implement passes slightly differently on different hardware if you want to have optimal performance. OpenGL was a horrible mess in this regard and I couldn't be happier when the industry dropped it...
One example is Baldurs Gate 3, it is a AAA title and the developers have worked with Apple to implement M1 support. With the MBP’s now having significantly more graphics horsepower and more memory at baseline it will likely perform even better.
Ultimately what proportion of people were buying Mac laptops to play AAA games?
Ultimately what proportion of people were buying Mac laptops to play AAA games?
There’s also the issue of not putting an HDMI 2.1 port on there. So much for gaming on a 4K TV above 60Hz with VRR.
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Anyone who has a gaming PC and a Mac would always to combine those products if possible. Note: I agree with everyone who said this isn't going to happen. When I rocked the Mac, I literally had the cheapest M1 air and a gaming desktop. Eventually (CSAM helped) I realized a Surface Pro could do the job of my iPad and MacBook. Now I only have to deal with windows and a phone.
Apple is not going to make a laptop for hardcore gaming. Thats a different world. Those are ugly fat 17 inch screen 1080p Alienware machines. Maybe eventually their RISC machines will eclipse the Intel CISC, but I’m betting it will be another company than does it. But again, it is the software developers that will make use of the hardware.
You're right. If Apple invests in gaming to the extent they pay a studio to port over a AAA game to tout its performance, then maybe the gaming community will begin to pay attention. But so long as no one looks at the mac as a gaming device, and Apple doesn't promote it as one, then nothing will change. As of now, it makes little financial sense for a developer to put time and money into a mac game if few people will buy it.
And now, I expect porting a game to the M1 will not be as easy as it was to port it to macOS running on Intel chips
Well, that's likely because Alienware does not have much choices in their laptop/notebook design to make it performant enough but yet to keep it cool enough to not melt. Apple have this choice with their AS.
Every time this discussion comes up it’s the same circle of arguments:
Mac no game -> no make game for Mac -> gamer no buy Mac because Mac no game
“Gaming on Mac” is now officially a big of meme as “Year of the Linux desktop” aint gonna happen, never will, get over it.
Mac no game -> no make game for Mac -> gamer no buy Mac because Mac no game
“Gaming on Mac” is now officially a big of meme as “Year of the Linux desktop” aint gonna happen, never will, get over it.
We do.
We buy windows gaming desktops and laptops. Thank you for your contribution. Forgive those who actually wish to discuss any potential updates and wonder if a minimum $2k laptop can actually game a AAA title.
I think that is an exaggeration of AW's situation, but yes, it would be much easier to manage heat (potentially -- we haven't seen real world reviews yet) in AS.
That's what I don't get ... such "notebooks" are huge, heavy, loose heaps of performance when running on battery (which doesn't last too long anyway). Surely if you want to play demanding games, you should do so from a desktop. That's an x86 space. Cheap and flexible, lights flashing, fans pulsing, all plugged in and wired everywhere.
If games were only played on notebooks, the M architecture would have a lot of appeal. Surely gaming notebooks are a subset. Perhaps, gaming notebooks are a con. No wonder Apple isn't frantic about that space ...
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Probably would if AAA studios would put forth the effort to port the program over adding ****** DRM and casinos. Luckily gamers are stupid and will fall for anything.We do.
Forgive those who actually wish to discuss any potential updates and wonder if a minimum $2k laptop can actually game a AAA title.
Also I still don’t understand this AAA argument. The most popular games aren’t AAA, it’s **** like hearthstone and league of legends. Gamers don’t even play AAA titles for the most part, yet there’s constant moaning over performance to run “demanding” games.
I just don’t understand the mentality.
You seem very tense about this topic. Gamers play all sorts of games. They play "****" like Hearthstone and League of Legends. They also play New World and Call of Duty. I am sorry you don't understand that, but they DO play AAA titles. Saying otherwise, or being dismissive about it, doesn't change those facts. Heck, Overwatch just had one of its most popular weekends--except on the mac of course where it can't be run.
How exactly are gamers stupid? If you are going to castigate them, you should at least have some logic behind that statement. I would bet as a cross-section of users, gamers are probably either exactly the same or, more likely, of higher average intelligence.
Hence the topic. It would be great, for those who are buying a mac, if a mac capable of this kind of performance in a notebook, could actually game.
That said, I think you are being rather unfair to gaming laptops. I can get a 17 inch gaming laptop that handles thermals fine and is actually rather performant.
Higher intelligence, right. Same crowd that pays stupid amounts of money for pixels is “high intelligence.” ?
I believe the issue is less "if a Mac could game", and more one of "if a AAA studio could program for the M architecture".
As to your point of "performant" gaming laptops, I believe that would be contingent on being plugged in, which kind of misses the point of a laptop.
What is possibly new is having hardware than can perform unplugged, and with that the possibility that one of those studies decides to see if there is actually a market for "unplugged AAA gaming".
You say that it will take another company, but M1 Max hardware is already there. Better CPU, highly competitive GPU, runs on far less power.
The GPU performance comparisons Apple made included two different laptops with the laptop version of GeForce RTX 3080. That's the fastest laptop GPU on the market. In the fat laptop which had the 3080 configured for 155W TDP, the 3080 beat the M1 Max GPU, but only by a little, and it used about 100W more power. In the thin laptop where the manufacturer had to limit the 3080's power consumption, M1 Max was ahead on performance, and still "behind" on power consumption.
It's not even all that different in price - high performance 3080-based gaming laptops are also over $3000. And for that money, you won't be getting the same build quality, display quality, audio quality, and so forth.
The only thing missing is support for >120 Hz refresh rate. I don't think that would be a big deal, but maybe I'm wrong.
(none of this is me saying I think lots of games will be ported, BTW. Just saying that if game publishers think the sales figures justify the porting effort, there is literally no hardware limitation that would prevent AAA games from running well on high end Apple Silicon.)
Well, let's see how well the cores hold up in the real world reviews--not geekbench tests. But yes, I am sure that for the most part that is true. The real issue is the market share, and that isn't going away.
If apple really wanted AAA games on OSX (they don’t) they would need to literally spend hundreds of millions of dollars like Google did with Stadia to get developers to port games (they won’t).
I love Apple products but yeah… if you like gaming on a big screen you cannot buy just Apple. You need a console and/or gaming PC. Nothing about Apple Silicon changes this no matter how many GPU cores they throw at it. The Switch has better games than OSX has ever/will ever have and it’s about as powerful as a tube of toothpaste.
I love Apple products but yeah… if you like gaming on a big screen you cannot buy just Apple. You need a console and/or gaming PC. Nothing about Apple Silicon changes this no matter how many GPU cores they throw at it. The Switch has better games than OSX has ever/will ever have and it’s about as powerful as a tube of toothpaste.