Surprised by low interest in and discussion of AR

[metapunk2077fail]

Working all day in VR is no different to working all day in welding (or medical) or similar PPR gear -

This is a very bad analogy. With a welding helmet can see your environment and every tool is physical. It's just glass protection over the eyes.

With VR you are blind to your environment. Your sense of space and balance is whatever the app chooses. You cannot use a hardware keyboard properly or efficiently (typing blind basically). A software keyboard is not a good replacement neither are some of the silly ideas I have seen suggested. You cannot safely pick up drinks off your table. I had the Oculus and tried Virtual Desktop apps in it and it was a terrible experience. It's such a relief not to use it.

Why did I even have to type this? It takes top level fantasising to even think VR is something you can use for work all day. I've now collected thousands of bookmarks and screenshots of comments and discussions and literally nobody but a neets, paid troll farms and incels who never worked a complex job think VR is something you can live in.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Nobody gonna drink virtual coffee while working

Yes, but the idea is that while working, they’re in front of some form of screen, right? Change the screen from “on a desk” to “on a headset”, and, as long as it’s their job to work in front of those screens, (so the headset is provided by the company they’re working for), there’s no big difference.

The coffee doesn’t become virtual when you put on a headset, the coffee would still be real! You just might have to take off the headset first LOL!

I don’t have a religious-like hatred for AR/VR, there are some good points for why it might not happen, and there are bad points for why it might not happen and, it’s also possible that it might happen. I’d never tie my future happiness to AR/VR never becoming mainstream.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Yes, but the idea is that while working, they’re in front of some form of screen, right? Change the screen from “on a desk” to “on a headset”, and, as long as it’s their job to work in front of those screens, (so the headset is provided by the company they’re working for), there’s no big difference.

The coffee doesn’t become virtual when you put on a headset, the coffee would still be real! You just might have to take off the headset first LOL!

I don’t have a religious-like hatred for AR/VR, there are some good points for why it might not happen, and there are bad points for why it might not happen and, it’s also possible that it might happen. I’d never tie my future happiness to AR/VR never becoming mainstream.

I don't hate AR/VR. I just think people need to tone down their fantasies and...destroy Facebook.

 

[StellarVixen]

I do not want it and I do not care.

Is that legit reason for not being interested?

 

[mattspace]

This is a very bad analogy. With a welding helmet can see your environment and every tool is physical. It's just glass protection over the eyes.

I've literally done both of them. I've literally worked all day sculpting in my welding gear, and all day sculpting in in VR gear.

The experiences are more or less identical. You just have better vision, and better peripherals in the VR experience.

VR tools are just as real in terms of how your brain adopts them proprioceptively as physical tools. Welding schools are now using VR systems to teach welding, and the welding companies manufacture VR Welding Simulators, which are PCs with external physical controls to match the real welder.

With VR you are blind to your environment. Your sense of space and balance is whatever the app chooses. You cannot use a hardware keyboard properly or efficiently (typing blind basically). A software keyboard is not a good replacement neither are some of the silly ideas I have seen suggested. You cannot safely pick up drinks off your table. I had the Oculus and tried Virtual Desktop apps in it and it was a terrible experience. It's such a relief not to use it.

Most VR systems have "view through" cameras for precisely this reason. Balance is a proprioceptive thing - apps that don't provide a good solid tracked experience aren't going to make much impact. Working in a SteamVR system - even an original Vive, the tracking and proprioceptive inside experience is indistinguishable from the real world.

Why did I even have to type this? It takes top level fantasising to even think VR is something you can use for work all day.

I've literally done it. Maybe, try opining from experience.

I've now collected thousands of bookmarks and screenshots of comments and discussions and literally nobody but a neets, paid troll farms and incels who never worked a complex job think VR is something you can live in.

Right... so you've not actually worked in VR to do a task professionally, then?

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I've literally done both of them. I've literally worked all day sculpting in my welding gear, and all day sculpting in in VR gear.

The experiences are more or less identical.

Right... so you've not actually worked in VR to do a task professionally, then?

Your responses are very likely false and then part way you went from VR to pass-through MR to back your theories up.

Yes I did sculpting and painting in VR. It was ****. I had bought the Oculus as a business purchase and it didn't fulfil its purpose. That's why VR game artists are and always will continue to use desktop modelling apps and only visualise the result in VR.

And I started doing this in the early 90s with 3D Studio in DOS and every major app since.

 

[JahBoolean]

VR in architectural vizualisation was cool, but the maquette ain't seen the door yet.

The endgame for VR is consumer entertainment.

 

[mattspace]

Your responses are very likely false and then part way you went from VR to pass-through MR to back your theories up.

What, you think I'm just making up my professional experience? Wow, that's special.

Yes I did sculpting and painting in VR. It was ****. I had bought the Oculus as a business purchase and it didn't fulfil its purpose. That's why VR game artists are and always will continue to use desktop modelling apps and only visualise the result in VR.

Right, so you bought the wrong, low end platform, and have a mistaken view about what the tools are capable of.

Sorry, but you need a higher frame rate, tethering to a PC, and external lighthouse tracking to experience Professional VR as a workspace and toolset.

Again, you don't know what artists and professional users actually do in VR - VR artists use VR-based toolsets. Games are only a tiny part of VR as a workspace, and arguably not even a particularly important one.

And I started doing this in the early 90s with 3D Studio in DOS and every major app since.

...and?

You're still wrong.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

What, you think I'm just making up my professional experience? Wow, that's special.

Yes, yes I do.

 

[polyphenol]

Any AR/VR products are bound to be paid for by advertising.

I was just thinking that I'd be wanting an effective ad blocker before I'd even try anything out. Let alone buy into it. I don't want advertisers interposed even more potently between me and the world.

 

[mattspace]

VR in architectural vizualisation was cool, but the maquette ain't seen the door yet.

I've used a SketchUP VR editing plugin, which gave you the entire editing toolsuite within a VR environment, rather than just being a visualisation thing. It's an interesting difference, actually building at human scale, for things like feeling the scale of circulation gaps etc. The UX was an interesting tree structure for tools that sprouted from the controller when you hit a button.

Thw VR plugin was significantly more expensive than the app though, which limited its utility.

 

[mattspace]

Yes, yes I do.

OK, well you're wrong about that as well.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

OK, well you're wrong about that as well.

VR sculpting so good none of the popular 3D modelling channels on YouTube are bothering wasting their time with it. They did the same thing I did. Tried it. Dumped it.

Pros model in normal apps. Then export to VR supported games. End of the story. This is done and dusted all over the web and the real world.

 

[JahBoolean]

I've used a SketchUP VR editing plugin, which gave you the entire editing toolsuite within a VR environment, rather than just being a visualisation thing. It's an interesting difference, actually building at human scale, for things like feeling the scale of circulation gaps etc. The UX was an interesting tree structure for tools that sprouted from the controller when you hit a button.

Thw VR plugin was significantly more expensive than the app though, which limited its utility.

I completely agree that it affords very interesting venues for modeling, whether it will take root within the modeling workflow or simply as a QA thing remains to be seen.

I was mostly working with procedural and AI, would not know my way around sketch-up if my life hung on it.

I'm very curious to see how Epic will leverage the UE and how that will roll out considering their squabble with the apple.

 

[mattspace]

I completely agree that it affords very interesting venues for modeling, whether it will take root within the modeling workflow or simply as a QT thing remains to be seen.

If you look at something like Kodon, which is effectively a VR version of ZBrush, what VR provides is a faster workflow, because you're eliminating all of the waste time involved in moving the viewport to see the third axis effects. You can just jog your head or grip & twist one wrist to move the model. You're also getting a genuine & correct stereoscopic view of the object, so if you're going from digital to physical instantiation, you have a true WYSIWYG idea of what it will be like - how proportions work given depth and perspective etc, which a flat viewport really can't do.

I'm very curious to see how Epic will leverage the UE and how that will roll out considering their squabble with the apple.

Apple depends more on Epic keeping UE on Apple's OS, than Epic depends on being able to sell games on Apple's store. UE is both the basis of a lot of the games Apple pays studios to make for Apple Arcade, and as a general purpose 3D environment for hosting applications within, it's going to become ever more important to Archviz and 3D modelling in general.

 

[mattspace]

VR sculpting so good none of the popular 3D modelling channels on YouTube are bothering wasting their time with it. They did the same thing I did. Tried it. Dumped it.

You keep talking about what youtubers do, as opposed to having actually done any of the things you hold such vociferous opinions upon. You "tried" it, with what was always going to be a secondrate experience. Your loss.

I've actually done the things I talk about, and I'm relating my direct experiences with them, not things that I saw other people say on Youtube, or write on websites.

Pros model in normal apps. Then export to VR supported games. End of the story. This is done and dusted all over the web and the real world.

I'm sure that's something else you "know" because you saw a Youtube clip about it.

 

[JahBoolean]

If you look at something like Kodon, which is effectively a VR version of ZBrush, what VR provides is a faster workflow, because you're eliminating all of the waste time involved in moving the viewport to see the third axis effects. You can just jog your head or grip & twist one wrist to move the model. You're also getting a genuine & correct stereoscopic view of the object, so if you're going from digital to physical instantiation, you have a true WYSIWYG idea of what it will be like - how proportions work given depth and perspective etc, which a flat viewport really can't do.



Apple depends more on Epic keeping UE on Apple's OS, than Epic depends on being able to sell games on Apple's store. UE is both the basis of a lot of the games Apple pays studios to make for Apple Arcade, and as a general purpose 3D environment for hosting applications within, it's going to become ever more important to Archviz and 3D modelling in general.

I wish that some kind of open source environment could come out of the blender + apple col-lab.

That's the endgame for apple anyways.

Tolerate, then ditch.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I'm sure that's something else you "know" because you saw a Youtube clip about it.

Not impressed by your rants and funny welding analogies. You're insulting some of the best modellers on YouTube who have given so much to the community.

 

[mattspace]

You're insulting some of the best modellers on YouTube who have given so much to the community.

So?

You're making an argument from authority. Who they are, and how important they are is irrelevant.

I'm literally describing my experiences doing work with technologies, and in working conditions you say are impossible because you saw someone on Youtube say so, and because you tried a half-arsed attempt at it with the wrong gear.

Hundreds of thousands of people every day, work all-day wearing gear that is bulkier, and less comfortable than VR gear, and they seem to manage OK, so it stands to reason that there's nothing inherently unworkable about the form-factor of VR.

You only have to look at the popularity of standing desks to see that working seated is something fewer, and fewer people want.

What I think you don't quite understand, is that not all technologies are for people who sit at a desk looking at a screen, and sitting at a desk looking at a screen isn't always the best way to do tasks that are currently done that way.

 

[mattspace]

I wish that some kind of open source environment could come out of the blender + apple col-lab.

That's a sure path to disappointment.

That's the endgame for apple anyways.

Tolerate, then ditch.

Which is why Nvidia didn't give up on CUDA and adopt OpenCL / Metal in order to keep macOS support - they knew Apple would only be interested in getting them to give up all of their unique advantages, until they were commoditised and replaceable.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

So?

You're making an argument from authority. Who they are, and how important they are is irrelevant.

It's more relevant than you bad welding analogy.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple depends more on Epic keeping UE on Apple's OS, than Epic depends on being able to sell games on Apple's store. UE is both the basis of a lot of the games Apple pays studios to make for Apple Arcade, and as a general purpose 3D environment for hosting applications within, it's going to become ever more important to Archviz and 3D modelling in general.

Don’t most developers use Unity, though? And, I’m assuming after the fracas over the App Store, many of those developers who went with UE rather than develop their own engine likely got an introspective moment where they felt it might make sense to investigate switching to Unity or developing their own engine in-house.

When you consider how all this started, with Epic taking a voluntary action to go against their agreement with Apple, it was completely avoidable and they intentionally didn’t avoid it. Which means for everyone using UE on Apple devices, the maker of UE is quite likely to make themselves a target for punitive measures again. Epic could even make the decision to just not support Apple development anymore. If UE goes away, the developer WILL have other solutions.

 

[Le0M]

The interfaces in Minority Report were rubbish. Dazzling and fun to see in a movie, but in reality a complete mess that makes data and file management inefficient and confusing.

The only difference, is that was a movie, and the rendering was meant to be visually engaging, because - duh - it was a movie. But the potential is all there. I truly hope Apple won't fack this up.

 

[mattspace]

Don’t most developers use Unity, though? And, I’m assuming after the fracas over the App Store, many of those developers who went with UE rather than develop their own engine likely got an introspective moment where they felt it might make sense to investigate switching to Unity or developing their own engine in-house.

No, Unreal is a significant, and very ascendant platform - while Unity has traditionally appealed to indy developers, Epic largely owns the big studios, and has been pushing into Unity's territory quite aggressively (and Epic brings cupcakes to studios for their regular on-site visits). While I can't name the specific studio, I know one major company that makes games exclusively for Apple Arcade (which Apple hired them to make, they're not just selling on Apple's marketplace) that went all in on Unreal, and ditched their in-house dev tools to do so.

Unity has a strong presence in Gamedev university courses, but as we've been seeing here in the last couple of years, most university-degree Gamedev courses are turning out utterly unemployable graduates, who have trained so broadly, and so shallowly, that they're incapable of acting in (or being quickly trained up to) a professional capacity in any single discipline.

When you consider how all this started, with Epic taking a voluntary action to go against their agreement with Apple, it was completely avoidable and they intentionally didn’t avoid it. Which means for everyone using UE on Apple devices, the maker of UE is quite likely to make themselves a target for punitive measures again. Epic could even make the decision to just not support Apple development anymore. If UE goes away, the developer WILL have other solutions.

Epic the game studio is effectively a completely different entity to Epic the Unreal developer. Within games dev no one seriously thinks Epic is going to pull the Unreal engine as a runtime environment from Apple platforms... but then again, within games dev, no one really uses Unreal's dev environment on macOS to develop for Apple platforms. Most iOS games are made on Windows boxes.

There's a reason Apple flipped on their banning of the Unreal Engine dev account within 24 hours that reveals the truth of wh provides who with legitimacy.

 

[basehead617]

I will be following this space but until I can make use of the technology with normal light glasses that look no different to others than my own glasses, I doubt they'd be a 'wearable' for me - as in something I just leave on.