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tubuliferous

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 13, 2011
77
81
I’m writing this post on a decade-old 13-inch MacBook Pro with absolutely miserable graphics hardware that was miserable the day this computer was manufactured. It used to be that the 13-inch MacBook Pro, a very popular computer in the heyday of this particular model, was abysmal as a gaming computer. At the time this model was sold, in order to purchase even halfway decent graphics hardware in a portable Mac, one would have to buy a far more expensive and bulky 15-inch MacBook Pro. And for desktop gaming on the Mac, one would have to buy at least an iMac (or bend the rules and build a hackintosh). For many (I’m guessing most) Mac users, decent gaming wouldn’t have been a possibility even if game devs had taken the platform seriously. There was little potential for gaming on the Mac. This is no longer the case.

Since the introduction of Apple Silicon, the Mac platform has experienced a radical jump in hardware graphics capacity. Even the lowliest Apple Silicon MacBook Air or Mini now has solid graphics hardware, capable of surprisingly decent gaming (shockingly capable compared to my own expectations for baseline Apple chips).

These entry-level Macs are not going to compare favorably with “serious” gaming rigs, but that’s not the point. The point is that even the least powerful new MacBook Air or Mini has capable graphics hardware, and in a few years the vast majority of Macs used “in the wild” will be at least decent targets for game developers. Pair the advent of pervasive, competent graphics hardware with the increasing Mac marketshare and Apple’s own push on the software side to facilitate game development, and it’s reasonable to expect a far better future for native Mac gaming.

I see a lot of negative emotional output in this forum in the bleak predictions about the future of Mac gaming, like the outpourings of serially jilted lovers who have long given up on dreams of better romantic outcomes. One can understand the basis of such emotion given the history of Mac gaming, but there are good reasons to expect a bright gaming future for the platform, and I am, for the first time in decades, excited to see that future.
 

Nermal

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
20,645
4,044
New Zealand
It'll be interesting to see what happens. The switch to Intel, in my opinion, seemed to have two 'killers' for gaming: The move from ATI to Intel graphics, and the ability to run Windows. In the PowerPC days you had no choice but to wait 3-6 months for Mac versions of games, but once Boot Camp came along people would just buy the Windows versions.

That's not currently an option with Arm, so hopefully the number of native Mac games will gradually increase again.
 

tubuliferous

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 13, 2011
77
81
It'll be interesting to see what happens. The switch to Intel, in my opinion, seemed to have two 'killers' for gaming: The move from ATI to Intel graphics, and the ability to run Windows. In the PowerPC days you had no choice but to wait 3-6 months for Mac versions of games, but once Boot Camp came along people would just buy the Windows versions.

That's not currently an option with Arm, so hopefully the number of native Mac games will gradually increase again.
Good points! There may be more pressure to port Mac native games now...though that pressure might be slightly lessoned by the viability of emulation (e.g. Parallels and VMware Fusion) or other compatibility softwares (e.g. Wine-based Crossover and Porting Kit) for Windows gaming. Certainly neither of those solutions is a perfect substitute for native gaming, but Apple Silicon is impressive enough that those options aren't half bad either.

For compatibility Boot Camp can't be beat, but considering that the AMD 5600M was the best laptop GPU prior to Apple Silicon Macs (correct me if I'm wrong) and considering that the mid-range M1 GPUs stomp the 5600M, my guess is that performance for Windows games running in compatibility environments on mid-range Apple Silicon compares favorably to performance in Boot Camp on the best MacBooks. Of course desktop macs could be configured with even more powerful (and very expensive) GPU options, but the point is that it's conceivable that even in compatibility environments Apple Silicon gaming is generally an improvement (with the major caveat that not all Windows games are compatible with emulation and/or Wine).

What do you folks think? Does Emulation/Wine gaming on Apple Silicon outshine native Windows Boot Camp gaming? Is the compatibility of non-native Windows games on Apple Silicon too spotty to make broad comparison statements with Boot Camp? Is there hope for Emulation/Wine compatibility to improve much in the future?
 
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casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,425
5,545
Horsens, Denmark
What do you folks think? Does Emulation/Wine gaming on Apple Silicon outshine native Windows Boot Camp gaming? Is the compatibility of non-native Windows games on Apple Silicon too spotty to make broad comparison statements with Boot Camp? Is there hope for Emulation/Wine compatibility to improve much in the future?
It absolutely does not compare. Mostly because compatibility is just too spotty and even when you have something that works performance in general either takes a hit or you have performance spikes where it's fine the majority of the time but then majorly lags every now and then, or you have missing textures here and then - and worst of all; Are you going to go and buy a game to figure out if it'll work or not, with maybe a 10% chance that it will?

But ey, I am also one of the few people with an iMac that has a Radeon Pro 5700XT in it so I enjoy the Bootcamp experience on that - but I can also say from fooling around with game attempts on my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro, that it's not a smooth experience. The power is definitely there but this sort of way of playing games is always going to be for tinkerers and even as a tinkerer, I can't always be bothered going through every single combination of settings to see if one of them loads the geometry without crashing in some game.

As for whether it could get better; Well, yes. Look at something like the Steam Deck. A lot of its game compatibility comes from Proton which is based on Wine just like CrossOver is. But with more emphasis on games, Valve's budget behind it, and a Steam community effort to make it a console experience with game compatibility rating schemes right in the store. - I don't think it's likely we'll get something like that though. Our best bet is more game ports I'd say.

There are a lot of articles out there from PC gaming news outlets praising the Mac as the future of games however; Because as you say, even a base, fanless MacBook Air now is actually decently capable and can even keep the battery going while playing games. If the software can catch up, the Mac could be a great game platform. And Apple has put some (quite little so far but we'll see how it pans out) emphasis on this too with Resident Evil Village and No Man's Sky featured at WWDC and partially funded by Apple, as well as GRID Legends.

We'll be discussing some of the headlines as well as a few other interesting things in the next episode of the MacGameCast if you're interested - available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and loads of other places :)
You may also be interested in some of our prior episodes as we've discussed a wide variety of Mac-gaming topics already including Apple Silicon's influence, also having Andrew Tsai on for one of the episodes (You may be familiar with his excellent YouTube channel and AppleGamingWiki)

 

Nugat Trailers

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2021
264
453
I'd say... that while it's not exactly clear skies for Macs and gaming, it raises some interesting questions.

At the very least, the base M1 MacBook Air can be considered the least powerful Mac, in terms of GPU, for a fair few people. And it's able to handle a fair few titles on low to medium settings perfectly happily, which is more than can be said about previous Airs.

A quick glimpse at the current Top Sellers chart for Mac over on Steam shows Total War: Warhammer 3, Two Point Campus, Rust, Baldur's Gate 3, and Call of Duty: Black Ops III in the top 10.

We've also had quite a few standout indie titles appearing, such as TUNIC, Timberborn, DEVOUR, Observation Duty 4 and 5, Len's Island, Settlement Survival, etc.

There's been a resurgence of sorts, I'd say. Partly due to interest, partly due to improving graphical power, partly due to Apple. Partly due to external factors as well.

I'd say to still be cautious, but cautiously optimistic. I doubt Apple's adding and expanding controller support just so you can navigate spreadsheets tabs.
 

Rodan52

macrumors 6502
Well, I guess we have come a long way since Prince of Persia but despite longing glances over the years at the lineup of available Windows games I've never really been totally deprived of a at least one high quality FPS to play on whichever model Macbook, PowerMac or iMac I had at the time.

Thanks to Bungie, the producers of Halo and Destiny I got hooked with the groundbreaking Marathon trilogy for MacOS way back in the 1990's, then there was Oni, Quake, Doom, Deus EX, Rage, Metro, Tomb Raider, Borderlands, Bioshock, always something. As you can see I like an FPS with a solid underlying plot, interactive characters, solo mode and good graphics.

Currently I am playing Deus Ex Mankind Divided via Steam which I purchased rather hopefully nearly 2 years ago but was unable to play until now thanks to my most recent upgrade to a 14" M1 MBP.
I also have Metro Exodus but have not yet begun that.
So, yes I'll admit the Mac platform has had it's limitations for gamers, especially in my preferred genre but I continue to live in hope that there will always be something worth playing.

PS. I have never played anything from Apple Arcade.;)
 
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Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
330
711
Even during the height of Boot Camp compatibility, featuring performance Intel CPUs and AMD graphics, the Mac has never been a good gaming platform compared to what a hand-built Windows PC would offer. Often times, the experience and value is better with an AMD CPU and Nvidia GPU, which weren't options that Apple made available.

The best gaming Macs have also had a poor value proposition. The best x86 gaming experience is the 2019 Mac Pro paired with a 6900XT AMD GPU. Even when purchasing used from Ebay, that's easily a $5,000+ expenditure, which most likely involves purchasing the graphics card separately and replacing the older GPU inside the used Mac Pro. I should know, I've researched this heavily, and always came to the same conclusion. For the price of a used base model Mac Pro, you can build roughly three mid-range gaming PCs.

Even when doing the "budget build" on the Mac side, it's less than ideal. My primary computer is a base model 2018 Mac mini with a speed demon 3.6Ghz quad-core i3 and a spacious 128GB internal SSD. I bought the base model four years ago because, at the time, the rumors of Arm Macs were strong, so I purchased this to tide me over. Instead of being a stopgap, it's become a crutch. Since my initial purchase, I scrounged used markets to upgrade it with 64GB of system memory, supplemented it with a 500GB external Samsung T5 SSD, added a BlackMagic RX 580 eGPU, and somehow managed to get an brand-new 21.5-inch LG UltraFine off of Ebay for half the original MSRP.

Doing the math, I saved about 50% off of the original cost of these components, but even then, it's been a poor value for gaming. I like to say that my Mac is held together with sticks and bubble gum and will fall apart if looked at the wrong way. Getting Boot Camp working properly has been a nightmare, because eGPUs aren't officially supported by either Apple or Microsoft on the Mac, so that makes the situation even more challenging. Plus, a random update from Microsoft or Apple can deep six your eGPU working within Windows, thus making every update from Microsoft or Apple becoming fraught with anxiety.

My point being is that, even when you do your absolute best to cobble together a gaming Mac to play PC games using Boot Camp, it's not necessarily worth it. Honestly, the sooner the Mac moves over as a platform to Apple Silicon, leaving Intel behind entirely, the better, simply because it won't feel like a half-baked effort.

Just as @Nermal alluded to, in the past, game developers could tell Mac users to "just use Boot Camp" and have an easy out, even though most Intel Macs can't run intensive games, and even if they can, it often involves much more than just installing Windows. The time and financial investments aren't easily dismissed.

Also, @casperes1996 has rightly pointed out that VMs like Parallels, and compatibility layers like CrossOver, are less than ideal solutions. For every PC game that functions, there are ten that won't even launch. Even then, you have to sacrifice a small woodland creature to the computing gods, on a Saturday night at 9:31pm GMT during a leap year, under a full moon, to even have a chance of properly playing a specific title. I appreciate the work that Parallels and CodeWeavers have put into their products; they have allowed many games to work on machines that they clearly were not designed for. However, I see neither virtualization nor compatibility layers as solutions for anything other than older or less demanding titles.

For instance, I very much want to play Alan Wake II when it is released around the middle of next year. Remedy doesn't have a history of releasing their games on the Mac. It doesn't even appear to be on their radar. This is one of the few game franchises that I would crawl across broken glass to play, but there is no reason to think that there will be a Mac version, nor will it likely work well with Parallels or CrossOver. It may be available through GeForce Now, but that has its own issues; game streaming uses massive bandwidth, has added costs, and there's a good chance of incurring overage charges, and I refuse to pay Comcast with its extortionist pricing.

Once my Mac mini ages out, which it will likely do soon, I'll either have to be satisfied with the computer games available for the Mac, or build a side PC. I can't see myself ever going back to Windows, I've only owned Macs since I switched in 2005, but a supplemental gaming PC may be the only realistic alternative, if things stay the same as they currently are. I don't want to spend $1,500+ or whatever the going price is to build a mid-range gaming PC with inflation, when I could instead put those funds into a better Mac purchase, whenever I do need to replace my anemic 2018 Intel Mac mini.

Fortunately, the situation is fluid and Apple appears to be working to improve Mac gaming behind closed doors. Metal 3 and mainstream games getting substantial attention during Apple's last event highlight this. Cliff Maier, a former Opteron architect who wrote the draft for x86-64 that is used in billions of PCs every day, who knows the Apple Silicon engineers from his days at AMD and Exponential, has been saying for months that, according to his contacts within Apple, they are serious about gaming, are aware of the deficiencies in this area, and are actively working to improve gaming on the Mac. The difference between now and previous efforts that Apple has undertaken is that, according to him, Apple is willing to "do it themselves" if they can't convince major game developers to support the Mac. What we are seeing with Metal 3, GRID Legends, No Man's Sky, and Resident Evil Village are just the tip of the iceberg, assuming Apple follows through with the plans that they currently have.

Finally, as you mentioned @tubuliferous, Apple Silicon is very impressive in regards to providing a baseline of performance. In that respect, it's similar to consoles, in that every game developer will have a minimum set of specifications to target. Unlike the experience suffered with Intel's pathetic iGPUs, the base model M1 is a performant, capable SoC that allows for quality gaming. During Apple's presentation, it was said that Resident Evil Village has no problems running on a standard M1 Mac. Compare that to the hodgepodge mess that have to be catered to with x86 systems, both Mac and PC.

On top of this, the Mac continues to gain marketshare, and there appears to be no reason for that to not continue. Tim Cook specifically said that the 10% shortfall in Mac revenue last quarter was due to the shutdowns in Shanghai because of lockdowns implemented by the CCP. In fact, Apple was impressed that they only took a 10% revenue hit, considering how restrictive government controls were during that time period. Those pressures are alleviating, most Macs ship within a reasonable time frame, and even the Apple Studio Display is no longer facing major delays. Couple that with a successful launch of the M2, the expected announcements of the more advanced M2 Pro/Max/Ultra/Extreme in the coming months, completely finishing the transition from Intel to Apple Silicon, then the picture should be more clear. Apple's appeal to quality over quantity appears to be paying off and they may be the only major computer manufacturer to experience shipment growth in the coming quarters, as they are finally able to meet demand. PC makers are interchangeable, and can only compete on price, whereas Apple offers value with the Mac that goes beyond dollar signs and the race to the bottom of the value proposition.

So, between an increase in market share, a renewed push into the gaming market both publicly and privately, and a strong baseline performance with Apple Silicon, I see reason for optimism. Of course, healthy skepticism is warranted, but the prognosis is better than it has been in years; in fact, perhaps better than it has ever been for the Mac.

Mac gamers don't need access to every PC title, just enough games to make the Mac a more enticing gaming platform. The hardware and software pieces are falling into place, now we just need more gaming studios to take notice. The Mac platform may be attractive as an underserved market, particularly since there isn't much competition among "AAA" gaming studios, which means they could potentially grab a large slice of a small but growing market (Mac), rather than a small slice of a gigantic declining market (PC).

Once developers are familiar with Metal 3 and Apple Silicon, they won't need to worry about every edge case that is a result of some revenant lurking within an old Nvidia driver implemented to supplement poorly written code from the 1990s, the cruft leftover from the 1980s buried within Microsoft Windows' ancient bloated registry, or some barnacle still lurking within an Intel CPU built upon a foundation laid in the 1970s.

There's still a lot of work to be done. I've been hanging on to my 2018 Intel Mac mini for much longer than I had anticipated, mainly because it's taking games a long time to finally switch to native Apple Silicon. However, once the transition is complete, I'm hoping that a good number of quality games will become available for the the Mac, leaving behind the hacks I have had to use with Intel Macs, not to mention the entire kludge that is the Windows PC ecosystem.
 

casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,425
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Horsens, Denmark
It may be available through GeForce Now, but that has its own issues; game streaming uses massive bandwidth, has added costs, and there's a good chance of incurring overage charges, and I refuse to pay Comcast with its extortionist pricing

You have "overage charges" on your internet in the U.S? Is that a general thing or just some areas/ISPs? That's really *****.
In any case we've also discussed streaming a lot on the podcast and as I've said there as well - maybe it's a lot about distance to datacenter, but even with 200/200mbps networking there's something about streaming that "feels off". I can stream 8K HDR video on YouTube but even a 1080p game stream just doesn't feel right. From the video compression making it just not look right, to the input delay making it not feel right; It's wrong-feeling all the way through to me. But that's just me and YMMV
 
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Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
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You have "overage charges" on your internet in the U.S? Is that a general thing or just some areas/ISPs? That's really *****
Yup, and it's rotten. I'm jealous of all my European friends who don't have to deal with that nonsense. There's no technical reason for it, but every ISP in the U.S. eventually implemented data caps. It would be fine if it were some ridiculous number to weed out extreme abusers, but it's a stupid low figure.

I'm on a 900Mb/s service plan with Comcast. They go up to 1.2Gb/s in my area. The total download cap is 1.2TB/month. I don't subscribe to any streaming services, such as Netflix, nor do I use GeForce Now or any other gaming service. I basically do standard office tasks, Youtube, etc. In other words, nothing out of the ordinary, in fact, probably less than most people. I typically average about 400GB out of that 1.2TB monthly limit.

If Comcast measures that someone goes over the 1.2TB cap, then you get a stern warning letter in the mail, telling you not to go over it again. Helpfully, Comcast will give you an unlimited data plan for an additional $30 per month. That doesn't include any speed increases or other benefits, they simply remove the cap. Even if you decline, they'll just start charging you after you go over for a second month.

That's why game streaming is never going to be mainstream within the U.S. If we use GeForce Now as an example, you have to pay Nvidia for the service, pay Steam/Epic/GOG for the game itself, and then pay your ISP for the privilege of unlimited data usage. It simply doesn't make economic sense. I ran the numbers, and you can easily pay for an entire gaming PC within two or three years, depending on what tier of GFN you are using.

The relevant governing agencies in the U.S. won't do anything; the are very much anti-consumer, and the politicians are too busy going after the big flashy targets like Apple and Google, while ignoring the obvious ISP monopolies. I can choose between iPhone or Android, or choose not to use Facebook or Google search. I don't have the same choice in ISP. I can either use Comcast, or have no high-speed internet at all. Of course, they also include "incentives" to make sure you also subscribe to their cable television and landline phone services, but that's a different matter.

So, I'd like to try game streaming, but I'd blow past the data cap within a week or two, and would rather just build a PC rather than flush that money down a Comcast shaped toilet. Overage charges are near universal in the U.S., and there's little that can or will be done about it.
 
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pmiles

macrumors 6502a
Dec 12, 2013
809
676
Yup, and it's rotten. I'm jealous of all my European friends who don't have to deal with that nonsense. There's no technical reason for it, but every ISP in the U.S. eventually implemented data caps. It would be fine if it were some ridiculous number to weed out extreme abusers, but it's a stupid low figure.

I'm on a 900Mb/s service plan with Comcast. They go up to 1.2Gb/s in my area. The total download cap is 1.2TB/month. I don't subscribe to any streaming services, such as Netflix, nor do I use GeForce Now or any other gaming service. I basically do standard office tasks, Youtube, etc. In other words, nothing out of the ordinary, in fact, probably less than most people. I typically average about 400GB out of that 1.2TB monthly limit.

If Comcast measures that someone goes over the 1.2TB cap, then you get a stern warning letter in the mail, telling you not to go over it again. Helpfully, Comcast will give you an unlimited data plan for an additional $30 per month. That doesn't include any speed increases or other benefits, they simply remove the cap. Even if you decline, they'll just start charging you after you go over for a second month.

That's why game streaming is never going to be mainstream within the U.S. If we use GeForce Now as an example, you have to pay Nvidia for the service, pay Steam/Epic/GOG for the game itself, and then pay your ISP for the privilege of unlimited data usage. It simply doesn't make economic sense. I ran the numbers, and you can easily pay for an entire gaming PC within two or three years, depending on what tier of GFN you are using.

The relevant governing agencies in the U.S. won't do anything; the are very much anti-consumer, and the politicians are too busy going after the big flashy targets like Apple and Google, while ignoring the obvious ISP monopolies. I can choose between iPhone or Android, or choose not to use Facebook or Google search. I don't have the same choice in ISP. I can either use Comcast, or have no high-speed internet at all. Of course, they also include "incentives" to make sure you also subscribe to their cable television and landline phone services, but that's a different matter.

So, I'd like to try game streaming, but I'd blow past the data cap within a week or two, and would rather just build a PC rather than flush that money down a Comcast shaped toilet. Overage charges are near universal in the U.S., and there's little that can or will be done about it.
The more you pay, the more you can download. It's not like a *stern warning* as much as a friendly reminder that you are about to or have already exceeded your data cap and that from this point forward, you will be paying a premium for any additional data until the next billing cycle begins. This is also when they mention their pricier plans with unlimited data et al.. time to rake in some more money.

No different than with the phone carriers... so easy to blow past data caps on their less expensive plans... but if you are willing to sell them your left kidney, you can use all the data you want.

Somehow I don't see the Europeans escaping basic capitalism. Perhaps they already are paying for higher data limits which is why they don't get reminded of excess usage? I doubt they could remain in business allowing customers to pay for the lowest tier and get unlimited data in the literal sense.

Unlimited data isn't really unlimited... there is a limit, and they have a pricing tier for it. As more and more people switch to 100% streaming, the more pricier it is going to get. It's quite lucrative now... it's only going to get more lucrative as each generation literally won't turn off their phones for just one millisecond of their existence.
 

Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
330
711
Somehow I don't see the Europeans escaping basic capitalism.
My goal wasn't to debate the finer points of the plight of the proletariate vs. that of the bourgeoisie. My point was that the future of Mac gaming (what this thread is about) probably isn't streaming, because it doesn't make economic sense when I can spend the same funds over two years on a better gaming experience if I were to build a PC, compared to streaming through GFN/Comcast.
 
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casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,425
5,545
Horsens, Denmark
Yup, and it's rotten. I'm jealous of all my European friends who don't have to deal with that nonsense. There's no technical reason for it, but every ISP in the U.S. eventually implemented data caps. It would be fine if it were some ridiculous number to weed out extreme abusers, but it's a stupid low figure.

I'm on a 900Mb/s service plan with Comcast. They go up to 1.2Gb/s in my area. The total download cap is 1.2TB/month. I don't subscribe to any streaming services, such as Netflix, nor do I use GeForce Now or any other gaming service. I basically do standard office tasks, Youtube, etc. In other words, nothing out of the ordinary, in fact, probably less than most people. I typically average about 400GB out of that 1.2TB monthly limit.

If Comcast measures that someone goes over the 1.2TB cap, then you get a stern warning letter in the mail, telling you not to go over it again. Helpfully, Comcast will give you an unlimited data plan for an additional $30 per month. That doesn't include any speed increases or other benefits, they simply remove the cap. Even if you decline, they'll just start charging you after you go over for a second month.

That's why game streaming is never going to be mainstream within the U.S. If we use GeForce Now as an example, you have to pay Nvidia for the service, pay Steam/Epic/GOG for the game itself, and then pay your ISP for the privilege of unlimited data usage. It simply doesn't make economic sense. I ran the numbers, and you can easily pay for an entire gaming PC within two or three years, depending on what tier of GFN you are using.

The relevant governing agencies in the U.S. won't do anything; the are very much anti-consumer, and the politicians are too busy going after the big flashy targets like Apple and Google, while ignoring the obvious ISP monopolies. I can choose between iPhone or Android, or choose not to use Facebook or Google search. I don't have the same choice in ISP. I can either use Comcast, or have no high-speed internet at all. Of course, they also include "incentives" to make sure you also subscribe to their cable television and landline phone services, but that's a different matter.

So, I'd like to try game streaming, but I'd blow past the data cap within a week or two, and would rather just build a PC rather than flush that money down a Comcast shaped toilet. Overage charges are near universal in the U.S., and there's little that can or will be done about it.
That's crazy to me. I could download 8K video all day long and never hit any limiters. I assumed it was just like that anywhere basically.
The more you pay, the more you can download. It's not like a *stern warning* as much as a friendly reminder that you are about to or have already exceeded your data cap and that from this point forward, you will be paying a premium for any additional data until the next billing cycle begins. This is also when they mention their pricier plans with unlimited data et al.. time to rake in some more money.

No different than with the phone carriers... so easy to blow past data caps on their less expensive plans... but if you are willing to sell them your left kidney, you can use all the data you want.

Somehow I don't see the Europeans escaping basic capitalism. Perhaps they already are paying for higher data limits which is why they don't get reminded of excess usage? I doubt they could remain in business allowing customers to pay for the lowest tier and get unlimited data in the literal sense.

Unlimited data isn't really unlimited... there is a limit, and they have a pricing tier for it. As more and more people switch to 100% streaming, the more pricier it is going to get. It's quite lucrative now... it's only going to get more lucrative as each generation literally won't turn off their phones for just one millisecond of their existence.
Here, the lowest tier of internet is free. It is slow, at only 5mbps, but there's no limits. I don't know anybody who doesn't pay for a faster connection, but none of them have limits. When the ISPs set up the infrastructure they got government aid (which they also did in the US in its own way.) but it came with requirements like the aforementioned.
 
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Nellisoft

macrumors newbie
Jun 21, 2018
7
8
Once my Mac mini ages out, which it will likely do soon, I'll either have to be satisfied with the computer games available for the Mac, or build a side PC. I can't see myself ever going back to Windows, I've only owned Macs since I switched in 2005, but a supplemental gaming PC may be the only realistic alternative, if things stay the same as they currently are. I don't want to spend $1,500+ or whatever the going price is to build a mid-range gaming PC with inflation, when I could instead put those funds into a better Mac purchase, whenever I do need to replace my anemic 2018 Intel Mac mini.
Or just buy a game console and play your games on that, and reserve the rest of that money for a future Mac. I eventually went that route after facing a similar situation with Mac gaming around 2006 - except I had already spent money building a "cheap" $1000 gaming PC, which was adequate for a few years but also frustrating to deal with the entire time I had it. I'm currently playing on an Xbox Series X, and even though it's the most expensive console I've ever had, in terms of bang for your buck it's still superior to any $500 PC you can build today, and the user experience is so much simpler. Plus I get to use it on my home theater system (55" 4K 120hz HDR TV with Sonos speakers) instead of a comparatively small desktop monitor with headphones.
 
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Huntn

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May 5, 2008
23,487
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The Misty Mountains
I’m writing this post on a decade-old 13-inch MacBook Pro with absolutely miserable graphics hardware that was miserable the day this computer was manufactured. It used to be that the 13-inch MacBook Pro, a very popular computer in the heyday of this particular model, was abysmal as a gaming computer. At the time this model was sold, in order to purchase even halfway decent graphics hardware in a portable Mac, one would have to buy a far more expensive and bulky 15-inch MacBook Pro. And for desktop gaming on the Mac, one would have to buy at least an iMac (or bend the rules and build a hackintosh). For many (I’m guessing most) Mac users, decent gaming wouldn’t have been a possibility even if game devs had taken the platform seriously. There was little potential for gaming on the Mac. This is no longer the case.

Since the introduction of Apple Silicon, the Mac platform has experienced a radical jump in hardware graphics capacity. Even the lowliest Apple Silicon MacBook Air or Mini now has solid graphics hardware, capable of surprisingly decent gaming (shockingly capable compared to my own expectations for baseline Apple chips).

These entry-level Macs are not going to compare favorably with “serious” gaming rigs, but that’s not the point. The point is that even the least powerful new MacBook Air or Mini has capable graphics hardware, and in a few years the vast majority of Macs used “in the wild” will be at least decent targets for game developers. Pair the advent of pervasive, competent graphics hardware with the increasing Mac marketshare and Apple’s own push on the software side to facilitate game development, and it’s reasonable to expect a far better future for native Mac gaming.

I see a lot of negative emotional output in this forum in the bleak predictions about the future of Mac gaming, like the outpourings of serially jilted lovers who have long given up on dreams of better romantic outcomes. One can understand the basis of such emotion given the history of Mac gaming, but there are good reasons to expect a bright gaming future for the platform, and I am, for the first time in decades, excited to see that future.
Instead of bleak predictions, there are mostly bleak observations about the state of Mac gaming as it has existed for the last 30 years. Whether or not the MacOS becomes a viable gaming platform in the future will be based on economics, if a Mac at $1500 can compete in gaming with a $1500 PC and it’s ability to do so will consequently determine rise in market share, and it is market share that will determine if game developers decide that the extra expense of producing an optimized version of the game, and not a jury rigged version cobbled together, overhead inducing on a program designed for PC with the Mac as an after thought.

Back in the hay day of the Mac G5 Tower, Epic had both a PC and Mac version of Unreal Tournament. I had the Tower and a gaming PC, both with the same graphic card and the pC version ran at twice the frames, 80fps vs 35fps and the G5 was 3 times as expensive as the PC.
 

Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
330
711
How do you cope with that? Borderlands 3 on Epic took up 140GB. I only needed 16GB to run it on an M1 pro.
Borderlands 3 is primarily GPU bound. The 4-core i3 inside my 2018 Mac mini has no problem keeping up with the BlackMagic RX 580 eGPU that I have hooked up to it. As a luxury, I upgraded the internal system memory to 64GB. Finally, I've got an external 500GB Samsung T5 SSD to store all of those gigantic game files.

It's not an ideal situation, granted, but it works. I've often said that my Mac is held together with sticks and bubble gum, which isn't far from the truth. There aren't any current Mac games that it can't play, at least with lowered settings. Borderlands 3 is a rather unoptimized title. Metal 3 will drop support for my eGPU, which only supports Vega and 5000/6000 series AMD processors, so game availability for my Mac will dry up sooner rather than later.

I plan to do everything from scratch when I move to Apple Silicon, from the mouse and keyboard, up to the monitor. I don't know which model I'll get, other than it being a desktop with an M3+ series chip. So, either a Mac mini, Mac Studio, or the rumored return of the iMac Pro. If it's headless, then I'll purchase whatever mainstream monitor Apple offers at the time.

Regardless of the gaming situation on the Mac in a few years, it will be nice to start fresh. Apple appears to be improving the situation with Metal 3 and newly announced games, and according to former Opteron engineer Cliff Maier, his contacts at Apple back up what the company is saying publicly. If what he is saying is true, and he is someone I have learned to trust, I won't need to worry about building a PC or looking at alternatives like streaming or consoles.
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,495
11,155
With the economy contracting and PC GPU/CPU glut price crash there will be casualties. First will be Intel's second attempt at entering the dGPU market being too little too late plus driver issues don't help (their first attempt with i740 AGP didn't fair well either). Other fallout will be Apple's attempt at entering the gaming market due to basic economics with lack of capable entry cost hardware, lack of interesting games and developer belt tightening (even Apple with deep pockets had to lay off recruiters). The one segment that will evolve and grow is the $400 Steam Deck portable PC console while high end is covered by Nvidia and AMD dGPU with no room for third place.
 

Irishman

macrumors 68040
Nov 2, 2006
3,393
843
Good points! There may be more pressure to port Mac native games now...though that pressure might be slightly lessoned by the viability of emulation (e.g. Parallels and VMware Fusion) or other compatibility softwares (e.g. Wine-based Crossover and Porting Kit) for Windows gaming. Certainly neither of those solutions is a perfect substitute for native gaming, but Apple Silicon is impressive enough that those options aren't half bad either.

For compatibility Boot Camp can't be beat, but considering that the AMD 5600M was the best laptop GPU prior to Apple Silicon Macs (correct me if I'm wrong) and considering that the mid-range M1 GPUs stomp the 5600M, my guess is that performance for Windows games running in compatibility environments on mid-range Apple Silicon compares favorably to performance in Boot Camp on the best MacBooks. Of course desktop macs could be configured with even more powerful (and very expensive) GPU options, but the point is that it's conceivable that even in compatibility environments Apple Silicon gaming is generally an improvement (with the major caveat that not all Windows games are compatible with emulation and/or Wine).

What do you folks think? Does Emulation/Wine gaming on Apple Silicon outshine native Windows Boot Camp gaming? Is the compatibility of non-native Windows games on Apple Silicon too spotty to make broad comparison statements with Boot Camp? Is there hope for Emulation/Wine compatibility to improve much in the future?

I know that there’s someone working on native Windows on M1 and M2, who’s been posting updates on GitHub. If you’re interested, I can dig up the link to the project?
 
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