Titan submersible discussion

[maflynn]

I don't know if there's been any discussion on this, and at this point, a lot of talk has subsided since hearing the tragic news but its something that I'm still very interested in learning more about.

I am by no means an expert in any of the technologies needed for submersibles. Yet as I read, watch and learn about OceanGate and Stockton Rush, its clear that a lot of little mistakes and mis-steps occurred. Isn't that always the case however when a great tragedy occurs? Its generally not one big bad decision, but rather a lot of little mistakes that are compounded

Carbon Fiber is an excellent material due to its tensile strength, i.e., under tension. Its not a great option for compressive strength and seems to weaken after multiple occurrences of compression. There was testing to determine the failure rate or the fatiguing of Titan

This video does a great job at highlighting some potential red flags during the building process of the sub, they include only having a single axis of how the carbon fiber was wrapped, the preparing and handling of the titanium rings, and the gluing process. As I said, I'm not expert, but it seems what was said in the video seems to make sense.

 

[KaliYoni]

Isn't that always the case however when a great tragedy occurs? Its generally not one big bad decision, but rather a lot of little mistakes that are compounded

I'd say that seems to be common, depending on how one defines "little" and on one's view on if failures are actually linked. For example, was the 737 MAX situation a design failure, a regulatory failure, or both? Can the Titanic and Challenger disasters be attributed to a single critical decision (sailing at full speed at night in an iceberg field, reporting your system as GO after extensive delays on the launch pad)? Further, human mental biases and how the media covers bad news greatly influence how causes and effects are noticed and remembered.

In contrast, I think it's hard to argue that tragedies such as Malaysia Airlines flight 17, the migrant ship sinking in Greece, and the volcano eruption in Pompeii were the result of long strings of cascading errors.

 

[scubachap]

I've thought a lot about this although I can't add any insight to what specifically went wrong it taps into the deep unease that many of us have that the hubristic lionisation of the startup culture and headlong rush of all businesses into the digital gold fields has mean't that starry eyed businesses, business leaders, the media and many politicians often now view long term experience (and the conservatism that naturally brings to any venture) as a wholly negative and really rather expensive analogue attribute and this attitude seems to have now spread into everything we encounter. Just about every sector is full of older (and possibly wiser people) walking out the door clutching redundancy packages muttering 'they're all mad'. As a result our banks are effectively bust, planes argue with their pilots, our rivers are full of poo (UK) and carbon fibre tubes (note tubes not spheres) implode after a few uses at 400 atm.

 

[Queen6]

Sadly a man who got lost in his own dream, to the cost of others. The rules of safety, construction & inspection exist to protect all involved. They are generally well thought out and implemented. Stockton Rush was far too cavalier in attitude ether not fully appreciating the risk or willing to forgo the same.

As for the construction I wouldn't have submerged on the Titan if paid. Worked in the Oil & Gas industry for decades. All too aware of what pressure can do to the strongest of homogeneous materials, let alone the OceanGate's mix and match approach. The Titan wasn't certified as frankly no approved agency would sign off on such a vessel...

Q-6

 

[turbineseaplane]

I have a hard time with extending much sympathy when there was so much hubris and disregard for safety and testing warnings and protocols by Mr. Rush and his company.

Submerging safely to the depths of the Titanic is not some simple little exercise one just throws money at ignores all the experts who've done the long and hard work on design, safety and protocols.

As the saying goes... F around and Find out

He (and all onboard) "found out" alright

 

[Rafterman]

The Titanic is a graveyard. These tourist expeditions need to stop. Science, OK. At the wreck of the Arizona, they regularly dive and check ti for structural problems. But they don't let toursits gawk at the wreck under water, where the remains are. But for some reason, we allow tourists to go to the Titanic.

 

[eyoungren]

The Titanic is a graveyard. These tourist expeditions need to stop. Science, OK. At the wreck of the Arizona, they regularly dive and check ti for structural problems. But they don't let toursits gawk at the wreck under water, where the remains are. But for some reason, we allow tourists to go to the Titanic.

Part of the problem there is that the Titanic is in international waters. There are agencies recognized as legal authorities that have prevented pilfering/scavenging, but there is no recognized legal authority that has the power to stop diving to the wreck.

 

[eyoungren]

I think hubris is one quality that contributes to these things. Complacency is another. Safety too, always seems to get in the way of corporate profit - unless it can be leveraged as a marketing point.

And as much as anyone in our current culture wants to deny science, cause and effect is still very much a real thing. Keep ignoring science and safety and you will continue to get the same results each and every time.

 

[dukebound85]

The Titanic is a graveyard. These tourist expeditions need to stop. Science, OK. At the wreck of the Arizona, they regularly dive and check ti for structural problems. But they don't let toursits gawk at the wreck under water, where the remains are. But for some reason, we allow tourists to go to the Titanic.

well you can't regulate international waters....the Arizona is within US jurisdiction

 

[turbineseaplane]

The Titanic is a graveyard.

It is, but at the same time it also really isn’t anymore.

There are no human remains of any kind left at all .. even the ship itself is on track to be fully “gone” in a few more decades.

At some point it’s just not anything anymore.
We are all walking and living all over places where people died at some point in the past.

Circle of life when on one planet that’s been around a long time.

 

[scubachap]

There are no human remains of any kind left at all .. even the ship itself is on track to be fully “gone” in a few more decades.

At some point it’s just not anything anymore.
We are all walking and living all over places where people died at some point in the past.

Circle of life when on one planet that’s been around a long time.

I would tend to agree. The seabed (particularly inshore) is littered with wreckage. I think there's something in the order of 37,000 known shipwrecks just around the coast of the UK. They're all being smashed up and degraded all the time and while it's right to afford special protection to the more emotive ones, for example the Arizona, Royal Oak and the truly historic / archaeological wrecks, governments and insurance companies (who tend to own the wrecks) can be surprisingly mercenary. They're swept with cables, blown apart, plundered for scrap brass, copper and often sold off to interested parties (quite a few UK ones are know owned by diving clubs.) Very little respect is often shown to them in the terms of the ships they once were or the lives lost on them - Insurance companies have never had a reputation for emotional empathy. Mind as most are now at least 80 years old they don't even really look like ships anymore just piles of mangled metal plates, beams and massive cylindrical boilers sat on the bed that have gradually become thriving reefs and nature reserves that foul nets and trawls in otherwise plundered seas. As you say a true natural circle and worth visiting in those terms...

 

[KaliYoni]

insurance companies (who tend to own the wrecks) can be surprisingly mercenary. They're swept with cables, blown apart, plundered for scrap brass, copper and often sold off to interested parties (quite a few UK ones are know owned by diving clubs.) Very little respect is often shown to them in the terms of the ships they once were or the lives lost on them - Insurance companies have never had a reputation for emotional empathy

Or this dodgy situation, which is probably a single instance of an ongoing problem fed by ship owners and insurers:

The Hijacking of a $100 Million Supertanker

A mysterious assault. An unsolved murder. And a ship that hasn’t given up all its secrets.

www.bloomberg.com

----------
(if the article makes you want to dig deeper, this book is an expansion and update of the article)

Dead in the Water by Matthew Campbell, Kit Chellel: 9780593329238 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

A Financial Times Book of the Year An Economist Best Book of the Year “A triumph of investigative journalism.” —Tom Wright, New York Times bestselling coauthor of Billion Dollar...

www.penguinrandomhouse.com

 

[scubachap]

Looks an interesting book ... I'll take a look at it. (Mind I'm becoming increasingly depressed about the way businesses have been behaving lately and this might not help )

 

[Huntn]

Part of the problem there is that the Titanic is in international waters. There are agencies recognized as legal authorities that have prevented pilfering/scavenging, but there is no recognized legal authority that has the power to stop diving to the wreck.

And it’s never been illegal to visit a graveyard. And how do you exercise people from killings themselves for an adventure as you said in international waters? However I would think/hope that if a corporation uses poor judgement putting people in a position of likely death that regulators from the home country might step in as the corporation is based somewhere. I wonder if this company is still solvent?

Titanic Sub Company OceanGate Suspends All Exploration And Commercial Operations

The company operated the Titanic Sub that imploded on a mission to the Titanic wreckage last month.

www.forbes.com

 

[eyoungren]

And it’s never been illegal to visit a graveyard. And how do you exercise people from killings themselves for an adventure as you said in international waters? However I would think/hope that if a corporation uses poor judgement putting people in a position of likely death that regulators from the home country might step in as the corporation is based somewhere. I wonder if this company is still solvent?

One would hope (regulators)…

OTOH, there are reasons that ships/boats are registered in places like the Bahamas or so forth. Where the vessel is registered is what laws it falls under.

We'd need to know where the Titan corporation registered the submersible. I bet it's not the US.