tvOS 16 App Store Removes Top Free and Top Paid Section, Reducing Already Difficult App Discovery

[Juicy Box]

I am pretty sure this started with tvOS 16, as I used the top paid and top free game section a few weeks ago, but I noticed that it was reduced to only the top 15 apps. It used to have a "View More" option that could be used to view the top 200 apps.

The tvOS App Store was already pretty bad when it came to discovery, especially for specific genres, removing the top 200 category basically reduces the App Store to a tiny amount of what is offered, which no other way to browse but use the search feature.

The search feature doesn't work well with genres anymore either.

I wonder if this is just more signs of the end of the platform.

 

[russell_314]

I wonder if this is just more signs of the end of the platform.

I don’t think so. I think this is Apple being Apple, and doing craziness. if they were going to end the platform, they wouldn’t be making new Apple TV hardware updates and wouldn’t be pushing the Apple TV app on other platforms. All this goes along with their Apple TV+ subscription service they keep pushing pretty hard. Yeah they really need to stop calling so many different things the same name 🤦‍♂️😂

 

[Juicy Box]

I don’t think so. I think this is Apple being Apple, and doing craziness.

Maybe, but it is pretty crazy to gut an already gutless App Store.

they wouldn’t be making new Apple TV hardware updates

The new ATV HW is just rumors, and the last update wasn’t really an update over the previous model.

and wouldn’t be pushing the Apple TV app on other platforms.

I have to disagree with you on this point, as I see the push of the Apple App, and ATV+ on non-Apple hardware as evidence of Apple preparing to abandon the tvOS and ATV hardware.

 

[russell_314]

Maybe, but it is pretty crazy to gut an already gutless App Store.

I agree it’s not good to cut features. In my opinion what a best case scenario would look like is if they made it similar to how apps are installed on the Apple Watch. Sure there’s an actual App Store for the Apple Watch but that’s not how most apps get on the watch. They are mirrored from the iPhone. With the Apple TV it could give you the option to mirror compatible apps. For example if you had Amazon prime video installed on your iPhone, you could put it on your Apple TV from your iPhone. I’m not saying take away the Apple TV App Store, but just make it the secondary way. It’s no fun navigating the App Store with that silly remote.

The new ATV HW is just rumors, and the last update wasn’t really an update over the previous model.

It definitely was an update. Everyone says when a new Apple product comes out it’s not really an update because there’s not some crazy change. We’ve all seen the meme with the shirts. Changes like Apple Silicon don’t come out every year. Most updates to Apple products are just gradual improvements. They improved the remote and updated the processor. I’m not sure what else they could’ve done other than come out with a whole new Apple TV, which was rumored but didn’t come out.

I have to disagree with you on this point, as I see the push of the Apple App, and ATV+ on non-Apple hardware as evidence of Apple preparing to abandon the tvOS and ATV hardware.

It’s possible but I prefer to look at things as the glass is half full, versus half empty. The Apple TV hardware was never a great success. People talk so much about wanting privacy but are more than willing to give it up to save $100 for a purchase that lasts several years. Of course I’m talking about cheaper alternatives from Roku, Google and Amazon.

My hope with the Apple TV is Apple will keep the current device up to date long enough so that Apple TV+ becomes popular and then they’ll feel it’s worth spending money on a whole new version

 

[Juicy Box]

I have two Apple TVs on tvOS 16 and one on tvOS 15, and it looks like tvOS 16 removed the extended top free and top paid section.

I am hoping that it is a bug or glitch, so I will report it to Apple.

 

[Juicy Box]

I’m not saying take away the Apple TV App Store, but just make it the secondary way.

But this doesn't make sense, as there are plenty of apps that are just for tvOS and not available on iOS. I do not think that is a good idea at all. Expanding the existing App Store, adding genres and more categories would be the way to go, imo.

It definitely was an update. Everyone says when a new Apple product comes out it’s not really an update because there’s not some crazy change.

Not really following what you are saying. I am talking about the differences between the A10X in the ATV4K1 and the A12 in the ATV4K2, as well as the Siri Remote differences.

An actual update to the A10X would have been the A12X. The A12's GPU benchmarks are about on part with the A10X, and real world use, the A10X actually out performs the A12. You can just check out some of the threads here on the forum about performance issues of Apple Arcade games on the current ATV4K.

The A12 has better CPU performance, and I think I can tell the difference when navigating the Home Screen, but it is hardly an upgrade.

As for the Siri Remote, the redesign remote cannot be used on many apps, and is missing sensors that the original Siri Remote had.

They improved the remote and updated the processor.

Saying that Apple "improved" on the Siri Remote is very subjective, but objectively, the new Siri Remote is not as capable as the older one do to the sensors removed for the new one.

I suspect that the use of the A12 in the ATV4K2 had more to do with Apple consolidating the chips that were being in their devices. Apple still has multiple devices that used the A12. There was only one other device that used the A10X (iPad Pro), and it was discontinued in 2018. Apple continued to order A10X chips for only one device, the ATV4K1.

Apple replaced the A10X with the A12, not because it was a comparable upgrade, but because it most likely saved them $$$.

That last part is just speculation on my part.

The Apple TV hardware was never a great success.

Well, the newer ATV hardware was never a great success. The ATV2 and ATV3 was very successful, and the ATV was the number one streaming box in sales for a while. I think it was around the time of the ATV4, Apple jacked the price up of the ATV4 and didn't include 4K, that low-cost Roku and Fire devices start to outsell Apple and now it isn't even close.

People talk so much about wanting privacy but are more than willing to give it up to save $100 for a purchase that lasts several years. Of course I’m talking about cheaper alternatives from Roku, Google and Amazon.

I agree with you there. Most people don't care, and the people that just use for streaming, the better HW and better UI of the ATV isn't worth the huge price tag when a cheaper Firestick can do streaming apps pretty much just as good.

My hope with the Apple TV is Apple will keep the current device up to date long enough so that Apple TV+ becomes popular and then they’ll feel it’s worth spending money on a whole new version

This just doesn't make sense to me. That is like saying licensing MacOS to PC manufacturers would get people to buy expensive Macs sometime in the future after using MacOS on a non-Apple device. It didn't work for the Mac Clone, and probably wouldn't work for ATV+ either.

I personally do not think that ATV+ subs have anything to do with whether Apple will release new ATV HW, unless Apple had data saying that ATV+ was only popular on tvOS.

 

[russell_314]

But this doesn't make sense, as there are plenty of apps that are just for tvOS and not available on iOS. I do not think that is a good idea at all. Expanding the existing App Store, adding genres and more categories would be the way to go, imo.

Then, perhaps they need to put the tvOS App Store on iOS as a separate category so you can browse through them on your iPhone. I just think the current implementation we’re trying to scroll through apps with the Siri remote isn’t good.

Not really following what you are saying. I am talking about the differences between the A10X in the ATV4K1 and the A12 in the ATV4K2, as well as the Siri Remote differences.

An actual update to the A10X would have been the A12X. The A12's GPU benchmarks are about on part with the A10X, and real world use, the A10X actually out performs the A12. You can just check out some of the threads here on the forum about performance issues of Apple Arcade games on the current ATV4K.

The A12 has better CPU performance, and I think I can tell the difference when navigating the Home Screen, but it is hardly an upgrade.

As for the Siri Remote, the redesign remote cannot be used on many apps, and is missing sensors that the original Siri Remote had.


Saying that Apple "improved" on the Siri Remote is very subjective, but objectively, the new Siri Remote is not as capable as the older one do to the sensors removed for the new one.

I suspect that the use of the A12 in the ATV4K2 had more to do with Apple consolidating the chips that were being in their devices. Apple still has multiple devices that used the A12. There was only one other device that used the A10X (iPad Pro), and it was discontinued in 2018. Apple continued to order A10X chips for only one device, the ATV4K1.

Apple replaced the A10X with the A12, not because it was a comparable upgrade, but because it most likely saved them $$$.

That last part is just speculation on my part.

I get what you’re saying, but those same arguments are currently being used about the iPhone 14 and will be used on the M2 MacBook Pro. Most of the time when Apple releases an update to a product it’s an incremental update that doesn’t have big changes or has some changes that people don’t like. Think about the “improved” iPhones with no headphone jack or no 3D Touch.

Well, the newer ATV hardware was never a great success. The ATV2 and ATV3 was very successful, and the ATV was the number one streaming box in sales for a while. I think it was around the time of the ATV4, Apple jacked the price up of the ATV4 and didn't include 4K, that low-cost Roku and Fire devices start to outsell Apple and now it isn't even close.

I wasn’t aware of it being on the top of the streaming box sales category. I’m guessing that was before Roku and Google introduced $30 streaming boxes.

I agree with you there. Most people don't care, and the people that just use for streaming, the better HW and better UI of the ATV isn't worth the huge price tag when a cheaper Firestick can do streaming apps pretty much just as good.

Exactly all they see is that it works just as good and they’re willing to give up their privacy for a cheaper price. It’s just like how smart TVs are subsidized with advertisements. I don’t own one but I’ve heard heard that the new LG OLED TVs have advertisements. It just seems silly to spend $1500 on the TV and have ads on it. Are people saving maybe $100 to get those ads and is saving $100 really worth it on a $1500 TV?

This just doesn't make sense to me. That is like saying licensing MacOS to PC manufacturers would get people to buy expensive Macs sometime in the future after using MacOS on a non-Apple device. It didn't work for the Mac Clone, and probably wouldn't work for ATV+ either.

I personally do not think that ATV+ subs have anything to do with whether Apple will release new ATV HW, unless Apple had data saying that ATV+ was only popular on tvOS.

I think it’s a different situation because Apple TV+ is just one app that could be on the Apple TV. It’s like how they have Apple Music on android phones. Granted, the one app is a bit more important then Apple Music would be on an android phone. Maybe it’s like having iMessage on android phone and I can understand how that could actually hurt iPhone sales. From Apple‘s perspective though the Apple TV isn’t doing well so I think they’re willing to take the risk. The iPhone is doing well so they don’t want to put iMessage on android phones because they don’t need to get the word out about iPhones. Everyone knows about iPhones but I guarantee you even most people who have iPhones don’t know about Apple TV. Apple has done a poor job of promoting it. Perhaps if they were smart, they would sell it at a loss just to make it up with Apple TV subscriptions and brand loyalty.

 

[lumpycustard]

Is Apple doing A/B testing or something? Both those sections are still visible in the Australian App Store.

 

[Juicy Box]

Is Apple doing A/B testing or something? Both those sections are still visible in the Australian App Store.

Scroll all the way to the right of that list. Does it just end at 15? or does it have the option of "View More"

EDIT: The option actually says "See All" not "View More", my mistake.

I get what you’re saying, but those same arguments are currently being used about the iPhone 14 and will be used on the M2 MacBook Pro. Most of the time when Apple releases an update to a product it’s an incremental update that doesn’t have big changes or has some changes that people don’t like. Think about the “improved” iPhones with no headphone jack or no 3D Touch.

You are comparing products with very different release schedules. The iPhone and MBP get release about yearly, so it is expected that the year to year changes would not be too dramatic.

There has only been 3 ATVs released in the last 10 years, a better comparison would be something like the Mac Pro. If the new release of a new Mac Pro had about the same performance as the previous model, would you consider that acceptable?

Or if you want to look at it from this way, if the iPhone 11, 12, and 13 had the same performance as the iPhone 8, would you find that acceptable?

There is a little bit more to it than that, but just comparing to yearly released devices isn't the same thing.

 

[Juicy Box]

Is Apple doing A/B testing or something? Both those sections are still visible in the Australian App Store.

Scroll all the way to the right of that list. Does it just end at 15? or does it have the option of "View More"

Here are examples of the tvOS15 and tvOS16 differences that I see:

tvOS15 Top Paid showing the "See All" option:


tvOS16 Top Paid without the "See All" option:

The ATV2 and ATV3 was very successful, and the ATV was the number one streaming box in sales for a while. I think it was around the time of the ATV4, Apple jacked the price up of the ATV4 and didn't include 4K, that low-cost Roku and Fire devices start to outsell Apple and now it isn't even close.

I wasn’t aware of it being on the top of the streaming box sales category.

Apple dominated streaming box sales category with their ATV2 sales in the early 2010's, accounting for over 50% of streaming box sales. The ATV2 cost $99 back at launch.

In the early 2010's, the ATVs biggest competitor was Roku with had three devices ranging from $70-$100. Google TV was technically a competitor, but they did not sell well at all, probably because its lowest priced model was a whopping $300. Apple was outselling Roku, Google TV, and all the other smaller marketshare competitors combined until Chromecast and Firestick launched.

The Fire TV didn't launch until 2013 or 2014, it was $99, competing against the 2012 ATV3 which cost $99, at launch. The ATV3 was still outselling the FireTV, but that all changed when the cheaper Firestick launched.

I’m guessing that was before Roku and Google introduced $30 streaming boxes.

Yup.

When Chromecast and and much cheaper FireStick launched, Apple dropped the price of the ATV3 to $69, but instead of keeping the price in the $69 to $99 range for the ATV4, they more than doubled the price to $149, which was one of the biggest mistakes, imo.

That, mixed with Apple crippling the original tvOS launch with the tiny 200MB static storage size limit for apps and requiring developers to make tvOS apps to be fully playable with the 1st gen Siri Remote, basically killed any momentum the tvOS platform had.

Apple walked back those changes later on, increasing the static storage size of apps from 200MB to 4GB, and removing the Siri Remote requirement allowing developers to make their apps require a controller, but the damage was done, imo. The few gaming developers that gave tvOS a try in the late 2010's have mostly all left.

This could also be due to the lack of interest in the ATV and tvOS from Apple. They barely even get mentioned at events now, and sometimes don't get mentioned at all. I think the lack of interest from Apple might be influencing the developer support for tvOS.

For example, the gaming developer SMG made one of the most popular apps for tvOS, RISK, many times, in the single digits in top apps. It launched in 2016 I think, and I love the game, bought all the maps, and it was probably my most played tvOS game in hours. But, the summer of 2021, SMG pulled the game from the tvOS App Store. It still is available for iOS, but not tvOS. I contacted SMG to ask what was going on and they told me that they can no longer support RISK on tvOS due to the lack of 3rd party SDK support from Apple.

If Apple would have dropped the initial price of the ATV, and/or didn't hobble the developers when the platform first launched, along with give it a little more attention than what it has been, I think it would have been able to keep some of the marketshare that it lost to the competitors in the last 7 years.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple discontinues it all together. I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised.

 

[lumpycustard]

Scroll all the way to the right of that list. Does it just end at 15? or does it have the option of "View More"

EDIT: The option actually says "See All" not "View More", my mistake.

Yes, it’s there in the Australian App Store.

 

[Juicy Box]

Yes, it’s there in the Australian App Store.

Thank you for posting that, it is probably just a bug in the US version of tvOS, although it has the same build number. Strange that there is a difference.

 

[Ray2]

Last week my wife asked me to setup the Roku again. No one in my household cares anymore. Continual lack of support due to Apple spats with other tech/media companies. Time for Apple to grow up and focus on its customers rather than exec comp.

 

[Juicy Box]

Still gone in tvOS 16.2.

 

[Juicy Box]

It only took a year, but the Top Free and Top Paid 200 is back!