Ultra High Definition

[shyataroo]

If this is the wrong forum my apologies, please move it to the correct one.

First let me show you a graphical representation of the differences between

1080 progressive scan and the new behemoth of technology: 4320p

The new format with a resolution of 7,680 × 4,320 pixels is four times as wide and four times as high (for a total of 16 times the pixel resolution) as existing HDTV, which has a maximum resolution of 1920 × 1080 pixels. Because this format is highly experimental, NHK researchers had to build their own prototype from scratch. In the system demonstrated in September 2003 they used an array of 16 HDTV recorders to capture the 18-minute-long test footage. The camera itself was built with four 2.5 inch (64 mm) CCDs.

18 minutes of uncompressed UHDV footage consumes 3.5 terabytes of data and 1 minute of footage consumes 194 gigabytes. If 1920×1080p60 high definition video has a bitrate of 60 Mbit/s using current MPEG-4 compression technologies, then 4 times the width and 4 times the height will roughly require 16 times the bitrate. That would translate to 100 GB for 18 minute of UHDV, or 6 GB per minute. This would mean that a 12cm Holographic Versatile Disc at 3 micrometer separation of different colored tracks (with a capacity of 3.9TB) would be able to store roughly 11 hours of MPEG-4 compressed UHDV, compared to the 18 and a half minutes of uncompressed UHDV. Additionally, an eight layer Blu-ray disc (with a capacity of 200GB) would be able to store approximately 36 minutes of MPEG-4 compressed UHDV, compared to the 1 minute of uncompressed UHDV.

Preliminary response of the UHDV was somewhat negative. This was not because of the lack of the promised technology, but more in the fact that it was too good. Some viewers got motion sickness when viewing the video image because the image was so close to reality.

In November 2005 NHK demonstrated a live relay of Super Hi-Vision (UHDV) program over a distance of 260 km by a fiberoptic network. 24 gigabit speed was achieved using DWDM (dense wavelength division multiplex) method with a total of 16 different wavelength signals.

(stolen word from word from wikipedia)

 

[SpankyPenzaanz]

So how long before 720,1080 are pushed into sdtv like 480p

 

[WildCowboy]

So how long before 720,1080 are pushed into sdtv like 480p

When we have bandwidth and storage media that can handle 20+ TB movies.

 

[orangezorki]

You know what - while this might be the future of cinema distribution, I don't believe that this will reach the living room in my lifetime. Take a look at audio - SACD and DVD-audio have come and pretty much gone, wile CD-Audio is still here and going strong. In fact, it is the recording technique that fails most CDs, not the format. I see 1080p being similar.

David

 

[xlii]

One has to ask... for those with 20-20 vision... where does the improvement in resolution not be noticable by the human eye.

Kind of like a high end audio system... eventually you can't here the difference between one costing $2000 and one costing $10k.

 

[ReanimationLP]

Wow, thats rather insane. o.o'

Edit - Wee. 68000-ness.

 

[Zwhaler]

I think that this UDTV is kind of overkill, and im my opinion when it comes out there wont bea anything higher to succeed it. That is so many damn pixels it is umbelievable.

 

[SMM]

You know what - while this might be the future of cinema distribution, I don't believe that this will reach the living room in my lifetime. Take a look at audio - SACD and DVD-audio have come and pretty much gone, wile CD-Audio is still here and going strong. In fact, it is the recording technique that fails most CDs, not the format. I see 1080p being similar.

David

I have an old copy of Byte Magazine that had the first article on the 386 (proudly displayed on the cover). The esteemed author's conclusion was, "Will we see the 386 in desktops anytime soon? Not hardly! The 386 will be relegated to use in the high-end CAD/CAM and 3D modeling applications only. Sorry to disappoint you. The 286 will dominate desktop computing throughout the decade of the '90's".

Market demand will always dictate the speed of technological advancement. I do not know how quickly this technology will evolve, but I do believe the demand is there, so the R&D money and venture capital is too.

 

[crjeong]

I don't really see this happening until film becomes obsolete.

No 35mm film could be magnified to display that kind of resolution without distortion or reduced quality.

And the cost of shooting on larger film stocks (eg, 70mm) would blow the budgets of all movies. It wouldn't be economically viable.

Like i said, unless film becomes obsolete and everything is shot digitally, we wont be seeing this kind of resolution images in cinema or at home.

 

[spicyapple]

Like i said, unless film becomes obsolete and everything is shot digitally, we wont be seeing this kind of resolution images in cinema or at home.

Sony already sells a 4K projector for $100,000. It's very competitive, quality-wise, as a digital projector to replace film projectors. UHD is the next logical stepping stone towards 8K projection, well within the realm of IMAX so I can totally see it coming within the next 10-20 years.

It might be another decade before your average consumer can work with 8K images, since working on 4K images is already a possibility now on commodity hardware.

 

[LethalWolfe]

You know what - while this might be the future of cinema distribution, I don't believe that this will reach the living room in my lifetime. Take a look at audio - SACD and DVD-audio have come and pretty much gone, wile CD-Audio is still here and going strong. In fact, it is the recording technique that fails most CDs, not the format. I see 1080p being similar.

David

This isn't the foreseeable future of anything except for proof of concept/bragging rights. 2k ( 2048*1080) is the most common res to scan movies in for FX work and color correction today. 4k is also used but not as much and some people are saying 6k is where it's at, but the cost/bennifet of 6k is still up in the air. Current digital project in theaters is pretty much capped at 2k as there are only a handful of 4k projectors in the world.


Lethal

 

[spicyapple]

This isn't the foreseeable future of anything except for proof of concept/bragging rights.

NHK has already demonstrated a working prototype of UHD. Over 15 years ago, NHK showed off analog 2K HDTV signals, but most people were still stuck in VHS and 8mm. We're seeing technology a scant decade away, since we've already leaped from analog to digital, the adoption rate of larger frame sizes is accelerated.

 

[crjeong]

Sony already sells a 4K projector for $100,000. It's very competitive, quality-wise, as a digital projector to replace film projectors. UHD is the next logical stepping stone towards 8K projection, well within the realm of IMAX so I can totally see it coming within the next 10-20 years.

It might be another decade before your average consumer can work with 8K images, since working on 4K images is already a possibility now on commodity hardware.

I'm not talking about projectors, I'm talking about the film stock that they shoot the movies on. 35mm film stock is the standard medium for motion pictures. And to be able to project images at UHD resolution they would need to shoot on 70mm + film stocks which could double the budget of an average film. For studios, this just isn't practical, they wouldn't be able to deliver as many films each year due to larger budgets.

 

[spicyapple]

Ah, yes, 70mm would be equivalent to 8K digital video. The current crop of digital cinematography cameras top out at 4K ie. Dalsa Origin, Genesis and the upcoming RED camera.

But since 70mm is 4x the size of 35mm, I suppose it's safe to assume the cost of filming, developing would be 4 times the budget, or even more, since the labs and equipment to handle 70mm is sparse so that drives up the cost astronomically.

I disagree on 70mm being too cost prohibitive for the studios. Creative talent and actor salaries make up the bulk of studio film expenses.

 

[crjeong]

Ah, yes, 70mm would be equivalent to 8K digital video. The current crop of digital cinematography cameras top out at 4K ie. Dalsa Origin, Genesis and the upcoming RED camera.

But since 70mm is 4x the size of 35mm, I suppose it's safe to assume the cost of filming, developing would be 4 times the budget, or even more, since the labs and equipment to handle 70mm is sparse so that drives up the cost astronomically.

I disagree on 70mm being too cost prohibitive for the studios. Creative talent and actor salaries make up the bulk of studio film expenses.

Yes, actors salaries and creative talent can be a major contributor to the large budget of a film, and thats why studios can't afford to outlay extra money on 70mm film stocks.

from Wikipedia:
The use of 65 mm negative film has been drastically reduced in recent years due to its higher cost. Kenneth Branagh's "Hamlet" was the last film shot entirely on 65 mm stock. Terrence Malick's "The New World", the most recent film to use the format, used it sparingly - only in a handful of scenes - because of the high price of 65 mm raw stock and processing.

 

[AtHomeBoy_2000]

Sony already sells a 4K projector for $100,000. It's very competitive, quality-wise, as a digital projector to replace film projectors. UHD is the next logical stepping stone towards 8K projection, well within the realm of IMAX so I can totally see it coming within the next 10-20 years.

It might be another decade before your average consumer can work with 8K images, since working on 4K images is already a possibility now on commodity hardware.

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!
UHD is 50+ years away from even REMOTLY being consumer level. It''l be used for a digital replacement to IMAX and maybe be adapted for regular movie theaters, but not likely.

 

[LethalWolfe]

NHK has already demonstrated a working prototype of UHD. Over 15 years ago, NHK showed off analog 2K HDTV signals, but most people were still stuck in VHS and 8mm. We're seeing technology a scant decade away, since we've already leaped from analog to digital, the adoption rate of larger frame sizes is accelerated.

Over 15 years and 2K HDTV signals are still completely not feasible. SD is still the dominant format, 720p and 1080i are slowly making in roads, and in a few more years 1080p might actually make it over the airwaves. 2K acquisition is so new they just cut it's umbilical cord, and 2K projection is still a rare bird.

Maybe I'm not understanding your POV, but I don't see how switching from analog to digital is going to speed things up. Going from SD to HD requires new acquisition equipment (new lenses, new sensors, new cameras, new storage mediums), new distribution equipment, and new display devices. Going from HD to UHD will require the same across the board changes. The move from analog to digital isn't a big deal. It's the move from SD to HD that's a PITA.

And as xlii mentioned there is a point where human perception is the limiting factor. Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it has a practical, commercial application.

I have to disagree and say that 70mm film is cost prohibitive compared to 35mm because the benefits of it don't out weigh the additional cost. 35mm is "good enough" and that's why it's widely used.


Lethal

 

[shyataroo]

oh did I mention that Ultra High Definition CAN already be Streamed? thanks to recent advances in technology the latest data transmission speed record was set this past september at 14 TERRAbits a second


from: http://www.ntt.co.jp/news/news06e/0609/060929a.html

September 29, 2006


14 Tbps over a Single Optical Fiber: Successful Demonstration of World's Largest Capacity
- 140 digital high-definition movies transmitted in one second -


Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation (NTT, Chiyoda Ward, Tokyo, President and CEO is Norio Wada) has successfully demonstrated the ultra-large capacity optical transmission of 14 Tera bits per second (Tera is one trillion) over a single 160 km long optical fiber. The value of 14 Tbps (111 Gbps x 140 ch) greatly exceeds the current record of about 10 Tbps and so claims the record of the world's largest transmission capacity.
This result was reported as a post deadline paper in the European conference on optical communication (ECOC) that was held in Cannes, France from September 24 to 28.

1. Background
The present core optical network is an optical transport network with about 1 Tbps capacity. Based on the wavelength-division-multiplexing (WDM) of signals with the channel capacity of 10 Gbps, it uses optical amplifiers with the bandwidth of about 4THz. The data traffic has been doubling every year due to the rapid spread of broadband access. We must lower the cost and raise the capacity of the core network while maintaining its reliability as the dominant communication infrastructure.
10 Tbps transmission over a single optical fiber has been achieved in the laboratory. However, it was necessary to use linear amplifiers that covered two or three amplification bands because of the limited range of existing amplifiers, and this multi-band configuration is not cost-effective. To increase the transmission capacity, we had to achieve two goals simultaneously: WDM transmission with high spectral efficiency and optical amplifiers with greatly enlarged bandwidth.


2. Outline of experiment
Our experiment used the carrier suppressed return-to-zero differential quadrature phase shift keying (CSRZ-DQPSK)*1 format and ultra-wide-bandwidth amplifiers. 70 wavelengths with 100-GHz spacing were modulated at 111 Gbps using the CSRZ-DQPSK format and then multiplexed and amplified in the bandwidth of 7 THz. In addition, each 111 Gbps signal was polarization-division-multiplexed so the number of channels was doubled to 140. This yielded the total capacity of 14 Tbps (Figure 1). 160-km transmission was successfully achieved by amplifying these signals in newly developed optical amplifiers.
NTT demonstrated in this experiment, for the first time, that it is possible to transmit 100 Gbps signal with forward error correction*2 bytes and management overhead bytes of the OTN*3 frame over long distances allowing the construction of large capacity optical networks that offer 10 Tbps or more.


3. Core technologies
(1) CSRZ-DQPSK modulation format and high-speed optoelectronic device technologies (Figure 2)
These technologies make it possible to generate dense WDM signals with bit rates of 100 Gbps and beyond per channel and transmit them over long distances. DQPSK is a phase modulation format with four phase states. Its benefits include its high spectral efficiency and excellent receiver sensitivity; both superior to those offered by the conventional binary intensity modulation (ON-OFF-keying) format. The combination of this format with pulse modulation (CSRZ), developed by NTT, enhances the sensitivity, and enables dense WDM long-distance transmission. To realize a CSRZ-DQPSK signals at 100 Gbps or above, we had to overcome the problems of the complicated configuration of the transmitter block and the difficulty of raising the modulation speed. The Mach-Zehnder interference type, lithium niobate (LN) modulator has been used as a binary intensity or phase modulator in high-speed transmitters, but there is a trade-off between driving voltage and bandwidth and it was considered to be virtually impossible to raise the operation speed to at least 100 Gbps.
To overcome these problems, NTT newly developed a hybrid integration technology that yields silica-based planar lightwave circuits and LN lightwave circuits*4. Both devices simplify the configuration and support the fast modulation speed of 111 Gbps.
While the conventional binary intensity modulation format uses a photodiode in the receiver, the DQPSK receiver needs a pair of balanced photodetectors, usually realized by integrating two high-speed photodiodes, making it difficult to achieve high-speed operation, high sensitivity, and uniform conversion efficiency, simultaneously. NTT improved the structure of the photodetector with the result that the new balanced receiver offers high-speed operation at over 50 GHz as well as high sensitivity.
InP ICs, which can be operated at over 50 GHz were used in multiplex and demultiplex circuits and the waveform shaping part to generate high-quality 111 Gbps DQPSK signals.

(2) Ultra-wide-band inline optical amplification technology (Figure 3)
It is necessary to expand the bandwidths of the optical amplifiers in order to amplify the 10 Tbps or more signal in one optical fiber. While most fibers have bandwidths in excess of 10 THz, conventional amplifiers have bandwidths of approximately 4 THz. This means that it was necessary to divide the channels into two bands (C and L band) or three bands (S, C, and L band) *5, amplify each band separately, and then remultiplex the bands.
NTT succeeded in extending the bandwidth of an L-band amplifier so that it was 1.75 (7 THz) larger than that of convention amplifiers. By improving the amplification medium and configuration of the amplifier, NTT was able to achieve a low noise characteristic,.


4. Future schedule
NTT aims to construct a 10 Tbps-class large capacity core optical network that excels in terms of its economy and quality; it will promote the realization of a long-distance transmission system that supports 100 Gbps high-speed channels.


Terminology
*1: CSRZ-DQPSK
Abbreviation of Carrier Suppressed Return to Zero Differential Quadrature Phase Shift Keying. Modulation format in which CSRZ pulse modulation is added to differential quadrature phase modulation; it is appropriate for high-density WDM long-distance transmission.

*2: Forward error correction code
Code to detect an error caused during transmission and to correct it in the receiver by adding redundant arithmetic data to the transmitted signal. The international standard ITU-T G.709 recommendation adopts the Reed-Solomon (255,239) code as an error correction code for high-quality transmission.

*3: OTN
Abbreviation of Optical Transport Network. The international standard for optical network using WDM system (ITU-T G.709 recommendation).

*4: Silica PLC
Planer lightwave circuit formed on fused silica that includes an optical waveguide. This technology can integrate complex passive optical devices into small areas and is used to realize multiplex and demuliplex devices for WDM systems, Mach-Zehnder type optical switches and so on.

*5: C band, L band and S band
Wavelength band classification for optical communication standardized in ITU-T. C (Common) band is from 1530 to 1565 nm, L (Long) band is from 1565 to 1625 nm, and S (Short) band is from 1460 to 1530 nm. The current practicable bandwidth in the L-band is 35 nm (about 4THz) centered on about 1590 nm.



- Figure 1 Technology to achieve the large capacity of 10 Tbps class transmission
- Figure 2 CSRZ-DQPSK format and high-speed device technology for achieving bandwidth compression and high sensitivity
- Figure 3 Amplification bandwidth extension technology in L-band optical amplifier



For further information, contact:
NTT Science and Core Technology Laboratory Group
Planning department
Tamechika
Tel: 046-240-5152
http://www.ntt.co.jp/sclab/contact_e/

the only problem with said technology is not only do we not have the technology to create pixels small enough to display that resolution on anything smaller than like a 150" monitor. and in addition there is the problem of being able to display a resolution like that on a computer.

Although...it would be friggin sweet to play halo 3 on a Ultra High Definition TV