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tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
Original? Sure. Fun? That too. Meaningful? Perhaps in a cookie fortune way.

Original? No. Even when it was used in Jurassic Park it was a cliche. It's been used (almost word-for-word) since back before the original Twilight Zone episodes. It's a minimal twist on the old 'things man was not meant to know' canard.
Fun? That's a matter of opinion.
Meaningful? Yeah, I'd say you've got that about right. Cookie fortune.

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Unlimited as applied to data not speed. When throttling happens your speed is limited you can still use up as much data as you want at whatever speeds you can get. There's a difference between the two.

If you limit the speed, then you're limiting the data. The 'speed' you're talking about is better known as bandwidth which is measured in volume of data per time (commonly bits per second).

Aside from that, the issue raised by the FCC wasn't *just* that the plan was to throttle bandwidth. It was that the plan was to *only* throttle the bandwidth for users who had been sold 'unlimited' data consumption. If anything, those are the customers for whom you are *least* justified in restricting bandwidth usage.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Original? No. Even when it was used in Jurassic Park it was a cliche. It's been used (almost word-for-word) since back before the original Twilight Zone episodes. It's a minimal twist on the old 'things man was not meant to know' canard.
Fun? That's a matter of opinion.
Meaningful? Yeah, I'd say you've got that about right. Cookie fortune.

----------



If you limit the speed, then you're limiting the data. The 'speed' you're talking about is better known as bandwidth which is measured in volume of data per time (commonly bits per second).

Aside from that, the issue raised by the FCC wasn't *just* that the plan was to throttle bandwidth. It was that the plan was to *only* throttle the bandwidth for users who had been sold 'unlimited' data consumption. If anything, those are the customers for whom you are *least* justified in restricting bandwidth usage.
No speed guarantees were made as part of the plan, just no data overages, which still applies.

As for who to throttle, those who are on current plans and on contracts or those who are on outdated plans that the provider is basically doing a favor for by allowing them to remain on them and without a contract, seems like rational thought would point to the latter group as the ones to be affected.
 

kenroberts83

macrumors regular
Apr 2, 2012
159
0
Clearly not. What do you call it when someone attempts to oversimplify so its easier to dispute? Doesn't matter. It's far more complicated than simply 100GB vs 2GB.

If you want to merely move the throttling line from 4.7GB to 100GB, then that's a different discussion altogether. Prohibiting throttling wholesale would continue to allow very-high-use customers to consume hundreds of gigabytes of data per month. This isn't theoretical, people actually do this. You can tether your desktop computer to your iPhone and cancel your landline internet access. It's nuts.

There are questions about what grandfathered means. Clearly the FCC has a different opinion than Verizon. How does bandwidth get billed, and what recourse do consumers have for performance issues. Verizon may have paid for the spectrum, but it's property of the US government and must serve the good of the people.

Grandfathering simply means that Verizon/AT&T are nice enough to let you continue on a plan/rate that no longer exists. They do it because most customers on unlimited plans are not really using very much data anyway, so it is profitable to let them stay put. Some customers, however, are using an excess of data. Verizon is under no contract with these people, so they're free to change the terms of service however they see fit, assuming they notify the user beforehand.

More questions thus arise from all of this, and yeah, it might be good for the FCC to intervene. We aren't asking for free service. Some people want to keep what they were promised. They have a right to voice why they feel they should. Me? I would like clarification from an authority on the rights of the carrier and the consumer. I make better choices when I am educated. Most of us do.

Verizon never promised you this service for life. It promised it for a period of 2 years. Once those two years are over, neither party is under any commitment.

The FCC's stance on this issue doesn't add any legitimacy. Lets be honest, it's a political organization run by Obama-appointees. Net neutrality is a huge political issue on the left these days, even though few people actually bother to understand what it really means. They leap headfirst into "this isn't fair" and "big companies are bad" types of arguments without even knowing the facts first.

I don't own stock in Verizon. I don't even currently have service with them. I'm just a regular guy just like the rest of you. I do know enough, however, to be extremely skeptical of giving the government vast powers over an industry that has so-far been working fairly well. Take a step back and actually look at the last 7 years of telecom evolution since the iPhone, it is really quite miraculous. Now compare that to "common carriers" like rail and landline telephone. Excessive regulation can absolutely be the death of an industry, and our telecom regulations were written in 1934, to give you an idea of how out of date they are.

----------

As I recall this was the first LTE phone on the network and they offered unlimited data for life.

I've kept my plan, jumping from the T-Bolt to a Rezound to my Note II. My usage is all over the map. Some months I use essentially nothing, some I go over 20GB. But it is not just the data, it is also the pricing. I think I pay $30 a month after discounts for my data plan.

So I'm not just concerned about the unlimited data, I don't want to loose the rate.

FWIW
DLM

Wait, you really expected that they would offer you the same plan and pricing FOR LIFE? I'm certain that Verizon never guaranteed such a thing. I absolutely understand why you'd want to maintain a good deal that you have going. You just don't really have a leg to stand on when you demand it. Verizon has basically been doing you a favor by not forcing you into a tiered data plan. That favor is starting to slowly come to an end. That's just the way of the world, man. Eventually every good deal comes to an end, and you'll have to pay what the rest of us are paying, or find some other discount.
 

JAT

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2001
6,473
124
Mpls, MN
Huh, timing is wild. Unrelated to all this news, but Saturday I dropped my entire Verizon account, including my unlimited data. Bye!

They charge too much for a family of 5.

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WiFi is a technology that many associate high speeds with,
Who are these people?! That's just silly. I guess marketing can win over those that don't pay attention to life.
 

legioxi

macrumors 6502a
Mar 2, 2013
644
76
Why can't Verizon, AT&T and the rest just cut off the unlimited plans and force the users onto the regular plans that everyone else has?

Those users (like myself) would probably switch carriers out of anger. I pay a lot more than a standard customer for my unlimited data, sms, minutes and hotspot with Verizon ($150/mo for a single line). I would not be happy if they decided to cut the plan after spending so much extra for my line and buying my phones outright (so they keep the subsidy cost built into the plan as well).
 

sbailey4

macrumors 601
Dec 5, 2011
4,512
3,153
USA
Ok, well it seems you’ve missed the point. -
Not for people to randomly interpret…. This is what Verizon have done with the word unlimited.

You seem to be missing the point. Unlimited data not speed. What if you are in a low signal area therefore getting slower speeds ONLY because of signal strength, would you be "entitled" to the same argument that you cannot use unlimited data because you are using data at a slower speed? That makes no since at all. sorry. Verizon COULD stop the grandfathered unlimited altogether and force users to use their new current plans. They stopped offering unlimited a long time ago and added the grandfathered option. They could have simply either not done so or done "for the next 1 yr you can be grandfathered at which time you will have to opt for one of out current plans". Of course this should only apply to off contract users. If you are in a 2 yr contract for unlimited it would be wrong for them to switch before the term ends but afterwards a different story. I am all for unlimited data so dont get me wrong, but complaining about this possibility of throttling the speed for the few percent of folks on a congested network that are not on contract for a period of time until the site is no longer congested is a win for everyone. Otherwise the speed will be dropped for ALL users even for basic stuff like email or web search because the site is too congested to handle the traffic.
 

markyr17

macrumors 65816
Apr 8, 2010
1,186
92
Verizon should throttle everybody on a congested tower while it's congested, until it's not congested anymore. Plan type is irrelevant.

Either upgrade your infrastructure so you can provide the services you have promised, or get rid of the Unlimited data.

I say this, because I find it VERY unlikely that they will drop their unlimited data completely.

They offered unlimited data, keep providing that. Unlimited data users have no reason to get less service than those on tiered plans. How much is paid for the data is irrelevant.

As I said, throttle all users, or throttle nobody.
 

techwhiz

macrumors 65816
Feb 22, 2010
1,297
1,804
Northern Ca.
Why can't Verizon, AT&T and the rest just cut off the unlimited plans and force the users onto the regular plans that everyone else has?

Well, because that would change the policy that they have always had.
They never force anyone off a plan, they wait for the person to move.

If they did that, they would also need to come up with plans for all those other people that are grandfathered in.

And just because you came to the party late or decided you wanted a cheap phone, why do you want me to be penalized.

I pay full price for phones so I can keep unlimited, so I actually pay more because I'm not getting a subsidized phone.
 

techwhiz

macrumors 65816
Feb 22, 2010
1,297
1,804
Northern Ca.
Well hello what I assume to be a Verizon rep. Why should you be telling me what I use on a wifi connection when I pay for unlimited data? If I was paying for a 2gb plan like yourself I would put those stipulations on myself. That's the point here people who bought into unlimited is to not be bothered by thinking about it these things to being that freedom and not to just a use it and run Netflix all day. There is a difference. And if you're one on the go as you say travel a lot or whatever you do why would you tell us how to use our unlimited plan? You're right it isn't 2007 and we weren't paying $15 per GB on LTE then where we?

I agree. I have a grandfathered unlimited plan.
Why would I use WiFi when it's slower than LTE?
Why can't I listen to Pandora all day and stream a movie now and then.

People don't get it, 4.7GB isn't a lot. If you stream a couple of movies a week and listen to Pandora a few hours a day, you can blast right through the cap.

I have HBO and Dish Anywhere so I tend to catch up on T.V. when not at home. Why should I do something different?

I pay for unlimited. I pay more because I refuse to take subsidized devices that would put me on a tiered plan.

I'm riding it until the wheels fall off.

Going to a tiered plan would double my bill. That's what Verizon wants.
They aren't going to throttle anyone on a tiered plan.
Someone on a 10GB tiered plan, when they reach 8GB has a different impact than me at 6GB? No, it's just Verizon can't extract more money from me.

It's all about the money and Verizon can't extract anymore from me on unlimited. Unlimited means, being able to use the data without any artificial throttling.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Verizon should throttle everybody on a congested tower while it's congested, until it's not congested anymore. Plan type is irrelevant.

Either upgrade your infrastructure so you can provide the services you have promised, or get rid of the Unlimited data.

I say this, because I find it VERY unlikely that they will drop their unlimited data completely.

They offered unlimited data, keep providing that. Unlimited data users have no reason to get less service than those on tiered plans. How much is paid for the data is irrelevant.

As I said, throttle all users, or throttle nobody.
The congestion by its very definition/nature already congests everyone. The whole point is to try to improve things for the majority at least at the cost of still some people being congested (via throttling) over just everyone being congested.

----------

I agree. I have a grandfathered unlimited plan.
Why would I use WiFi when it's slower than LTE?
Why can't I listen to Pandora all day and stream a movie now and then.

People don't get it, 4.7GB isn't a lot. If you stream a couple of movies a week and listen to Pandora a few hours a day, you can blast right through the cap.

I have HBO and Dish Anywhere so I tend to catch up on T.V. when not at home. Why should I do something different?

I pay for unlimited. I pay more because I refuse to take subsidized devices that would put me on a tiered plan.

I'm riding it until the wheels fall off.

Going to a tiered plan would double my bill. That's what Verizon wants.
They aren't going to throttle anyone on a tiered plan.
Someone on a 10GB tiered plan, when they reach 8GB has a different impact than me at 6GB? No, it's just Verizon can't extract more money from me.

It's all about the money and Verizon can't extract anymore from me on unlimited. Unlimited means, being able to use the data without any artificial throttling.
Unlimited means being able to use data without worrying about overage charges that don't exit for such a plan. That is still being provided.
 

markyr17

macrumors 65816
Apr 8, 2010
1,186
92
The congestion by its very definition/nature already congests everyone. The whole point is to try to improve things for the majority at least at the cost of still some people being congested (via throttling) over just everyone being congested.

Right, so as you're saying, instead of fixing the actual problem, and beefing up the infrastructure, they are punishing the longtime customers that have the "old" and "outdated" plan. Using a band-aid instead of fixing the real problem.

AT&T did the same thing with their unlimited data plans. Did the data get much better for anybody? Hell no it didn't. It's all just a money grab, and I'm not sure how that's hard to see.

----------

----------

[/COLOR]Unlimited means being able to use data without worrying about overage charges that don't exit for such a plan. That is still being provided.

Where are you getting this definition of unlimited, besides making it up yourself?
 

PSYCHO666

macrumors newbie
Sep 4, 2010
7
3
I totally agree... everyone who does not have an unlimited plan seems to be haters of those that do. Sorry you all missed the boat and got stuck getting screwed by the providers. It is ALL about the money. They used to make their money on minutes used for calls. Now, nobody talks on the phone anymore, they text or use data. So the providers changed plans to make more money money on data and make calls unlimited.
If the cell towers are congested, that is not the users fault. They should enhance the towers to properly handle the load but that would cost 'them' money. It is cheaper to limit the service they provide.
Look at it this way... I pay for my service, just like you do and if we are standing next to each other using the same cell site watching a movie on netflix, why should I buffer every 2 minutes while you don't just because I have an unlimited plan. That is not fair. I pay for my service just like you do.
One thing we 'unlimited data users' are also trying to get across to all you haters is the fact that we still pay the same 'high' price to keep the plan. You can get a single line for $65mo with 2gb of data but unlimited users are still paying $150+ for the grandfathered plans. Why should they receive less service?
I live in an RV park and the internet speed here is .5M down. point 5!!! I cannot stream or download anything... only slowly browse. I like to watch movies & TV just like everyone else and I am unable to stream on many services because the providers do not allow it. I cannot even buy a movie because they will not let me download on cell... 'you must be connected to wifi'. I have to go to a freak'n Starbucks to download because we 'ALL' are being limited on data usage, unlimited or not. ALL cell providers are greedy and unfair.
I'm in the 5% because I do not have available wifi and I stream. I hit 85gig one month... got hooked watching 3 seasons of Game of Thrones :) Watching one movie can hit 4gig of data.
Bottom line... The providers need to change with the times and enhance their equipment to handle the load, not offer less service to a percentage of customers. Keep in mind, they profit in the billions!!


I agree. I have a grandfathered unlimited plan.
Why would I use WiFi when it's slower than LTE?
Why can't I listen to Pandora all day and stream a movie now and then.

People don't get it, 4.7GB isn't a lot. If you stream a couple of movies a week and listen to Pandora a few hours a day, you can blast right through the cap.

I have HBO and Dish Anywhere so I tend to catch up on T.V. when not at home. Why should I do something different?

I pay for unlimited. I pay more because I refuse to take subsidized devices that would put me on a tiered plan.

I'm riding it until the wheels fall off.

Going to a tiered plan would double my bill. That's what Verizon wants.
They aren't going to throttle anyone on a tiered plan.
Someone on a 10GB tiered plan, when they reach 8GB has a different impact than me at 6GB? No, it's just Verizon can't extract more money from me.

It's all about the money and Verizon can't extract anymore from me on unlimited. Unlimited means, being able to use the data without any artificial throttling.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Right, so as you're saying, instead of fixing the actual problem, and beefing up the infrastructure, they are punishing the longtime customers that have the "old" and "outdated" plan. Using a band-aid instead of fixing the real problem.

AT&T did the same thing with their unlimited data plans. Did the data get much better for anybody? Hell no it didn't. It's all just a money grab, and I'm not sure how that's hard to see.

----------



Where are you getting this definition of unlimited, besides making it up yourself?
While infrastructure is being worked on and improved (since it doesn't just magically happen in a snap) something still needs to be done to somehow deal with the issue in the meantime. Putting a band aid on while working on improving things is better than not putting anything on while working on improving things, right? Right.

As for definition, it seems like others are making things up as they fit them, I'm simply mentioning what it means when it comes to Verizon plans, not what it's dictionary definition means.
 

britboyj

macrumors 6502a
Apr 8, 2009
814
1,086
Well, T-Mobile and Sprint have both brought BACK Unlimited - I'd happily agree to 5GB of LTE then throttling if I could have unlimited on Verizon, because right now 3GB on Verizon is as much as unlimited T-Mobile...
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
If you want to merely move the throttling line from 4.7GB to 100GB, then that's a different discussion altogether.

That wasn't the point, but I agree, it would be the next discussion if throttling were allowed.

Prohibiting throttling wholesale would continue to allow very-high-use customers to consume hundreds of gigabytes of data per month. This isn't theoretical, people actually do this. You can tether your desktop computer to your iPhone and cancel your landline internet access. It's nuts.

It was also a major selling point that the carriers charge/charged extra for. The only reason you no longer pay for tethering is due to a condition of the 700 MHz spectrum, of which Verizon licenses. They can not legally charge for this if your device uses this spectrum.

Grandfathering simply means that Verizon/AT&T are nice enough to let you continue on a plan/rate that no longer exists.

Then we need some consumer rights established regarding grandfathered plans. However, it should be noted that many of Verizon's customers are still under contract with an unlimited plan. This is because there are many actions that can occur that extends your contract without a plan change.

No. They do it because most customers on unlimited plans are not really using very much data anyway, so it is profitable to let them stay put.

Then they need to consider the cost of a loud minority.

Some customers, however, are using an excess of data.

As defined by one party.

Verizon is under no contract with these people, so they're free to change the terms of service however they see fit, assuming they notify the user beforehand.

Again, not everyone is out of contract. Though you are right, they could migrate the people who aren't under contract to another plan.


Verizon never promised you this service for life. It promised it for a period of 2 years. Once those two years are over, neither party is under any commitment.

I never said they did.

The FCC's stance on this issue doesn't add any legitimacy. Lets be honest, it's a political organization run by Obama-appointees. Net neutrality is a huge political issue on the left these days, even though few people actually bother to understand what it really means. They leap headfirst into "this isn't fair" and "big companies are bad" types of arguments without even knowing the facts first.

Considering that spectrum is a limited resources, it, like radio, needs to be strongly regulated. Verizon paid to use the spectrum, but that use must be for the good of the community and not just their bottom line.

I don't own stock in Verizon. I don't even currently have service with them. I'm just a regular guy just like the rest of you. I do know enough, however, to be extremely skeptical of giving the government vast powers over an industry that has so-far been working fairly well.

Are we talking about another industry now? This is a group that have been consolidating, restricting consumer rights, and interfering with decreases in the cost of service. And no, offering more for similar prices is not the same as actually lowering the cost.

Take a step back and actually look at the last 7 years of telecom evolution since the iPhone, it is really quite miraculous.

All that in spite of the carriers. Apple had to make exclusively deals just to get access to voicemail improvements.

Now compare that to "common carriers" like rail and landline telephone. Excessive regulation can absolutely be the death of an industry, and our telecom regulations were written in 1934, to give you an idea of how out of date they are.

Rail was one of the most abused utilities of its time. Rockefeller used his control to shake down whole industries. Rail is one of the biggest success stories of regulation. And what about Landline? Without government intervention the Bells and its babies would have never laid wire into rural areas. Again, without regulation the technology would have been limited.

Those are bad examples, especially since anyone, in theory, could have laid wire or tracks. Radio is a better example. Neither you nor I can start a radio station without the approval. Why? There is only so many frequencies to choose from. If anyone could broadcast on any frequency then all we would get is noise. Same goes for wireless telecom. You can only let one group use the frequency in any particular area, else it becomes useless. So the government regulates the use of such spectrum and in exchange you abide by their regulations.

The FCC has every right to get involved.
 

CFreymarc

Suspended
Sep 4, 2009
3,969
1,149
If Verizon spent more money on engineers increasing bandwidth capacity instead of on attorneys defending a business plan, this would not be needed.
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
Unlimited means being able to use data without worrying about overage charges that don't exit for such a plan. That is still being provided.

That is true. Unlimited does mean that. Of course, there is the other part where they defined unlimited of what. In this case it was 3G or LTE data.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
That is true. Unlimited does mean that. Of course, there is the other part where they defined unlimited of what. In this case it was 3G or LTE data.
Where was that defined and in what terms (as in what were the details of that definition)? Seems like you are still getting unlimited 3G or LTE data if there are no overages and you are using 3G or LTE technology/connection (nothing about specific speeds, let alone guarantee of any of them).
 

4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
Where was that defined and in what terms (as in what were the details of that definition)? Seems like you are still getting unlimited 3G or LTE data if there are no overages and you are using 3G or LTE technology/connection (nothing about specific speeds, let alone guarantee of any of them).

That would be located in the section explaining the average speeds. The technology is not independent from its associated bandwidth. The terms establish that when they explain reasons your bandwidth may vary.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
That would be located in the section explaining the average speeds. The technology is not independent from its associated bandwidth. The terms establish that when they explain reasons your bandwidth may vary.
But the technology can have lower and higher speeds which are still part of it. It doesn't sound like anything was said that lower speeds won't be seen or that most of the time at least average speeds will be available or anything like that. Bandwidth may vary and the speeds may vary no matter what the technology, just because one technology or another used doesn't mean the speeds will be at particular rates all or most of the time, unless that is specifically called out in the terms. I understand what someone's expectation might be when seeing 3G or LTE, but expectations are not what is actually specified in the terms and conditions, which is what actually applies.

Furthermore, getting throttled occasionally on a congested cell only during congested times can still easily put the average speeds in the overall use (over a billing cycle, for example) in the expected average real-world speeds that are typically associated with the technology used.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,050
Gotta be in it to win it
The congestion by its very definition/nature already congests everyone. The whole point is to try to improve things for the majority at least at the cost of still some people being congested (via throttling) over just everyone being congested.

----------

Unlimited means being able to use data without worrying about overage charges that don't exit for such a plan. That is still being provided.

Imagine renting a car. Because you already had an account with the rental cpany, they will do you a favor and rent you a car with unlimited miles, however the car is throttled to 20 mph. You can go to the newer unthrottled rental arrangement, but it's 2 bucks a mile and once you go with that plan, you cannot get your unlimited miles back.

The unlimited is what you want, the car will get you there, but for all practical purposes this is not really a useable plan.
 

i-John

macrumors 6502a
Jul 14, 2008
692
84
The Republic of Texas
The operations at Jurassic Park were legal and look how well that worked out. In the words of Dr. Ian Malcolm: "Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

You do realize that's just a movie, right?

----------

Imagine renting a car. Because you already had an account with the rental cpany, they will do you a favor and rent you a car with unlimited miles, however the car is throttled to 20 mph. You can go to the newer unthrottled rental arrangement, but it's 2 bucks a mile and once you go with that plan, you cannot get your unlimited miles back.

The unlimited is what you want, the car will get you there, but for all practical purposes this is not really a useable plan.

With car rental, you pay for the gas you use, so you are unlimited as long as you keep paying for gas.
 

markyr17

macrumors 65816
Apr 8, 2010
1,186
92
You do realize that's just a movie, right?

----------



With car rental, you pay for the gas you use, so you are unlimited as long as you keep paying for gas.

In his analogy, it was a rental car company.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Imagine renting a car. Because you already had an account with the rental cpany, they will do you a favor and rent you a car with unlimited miles, however the car is throttled to 20 mph. You can go to the newer unthrottled rental arrangement, but it's 2 bucks a mile and once you go with that plan, you cannot get your unlimited miles back.

The unlimited is what you want, the car will get you there, but for all practical purposes this is not really a useable plan.
Well, the car isn't always throttled in that example, only in some limited occasions when you would be on a congested road, and only if driven the car for thousands of miles already, and even then only if you are not under a contract with the rental agency at that point. They are basically saying that even though we have granted you the right of being able to use our unlimited plan that we haven't offered for years now, there are some restrictions that it comes with now in exchange for the right to use that no longer existing plan that you can use simply because we've allowed you to. Or you can definitely change to what is currently being offered and go with that without those restrictions.
 
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