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Tyler O'Bannon

macrumors 6502a
Nov 23, 2019
768
1,284
The way that all hardware and software run right now, that’s just going to be necessary. I know it can be frustrating and ill timed sometimes. When you have tons of apps going and are in the middle of projects, tons of tabs, etc.

But it’s just life as we know it right now. And I don’t think that it will change anytime soon.

I have to restart for airdrop and continuity camera if it’s been a few days since I last used it.

So I get it.
 
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splitpea

macrumors 65816
Oct 21, 2009
1,137
397
Among the starlings
I will say, I’ve been using OS X / MacOS since Jaguar, and it’s only in the last 5 years that turning it off and then on again has ever been an effective solution to an issue I’m having with it.
 

dysamoria

macrumors 68020
Dec 8, 2011
2,245
1,868
That's not quite what I'm saying here. There will never not be bugs.

This is why we are in this situation. This is the very kind of rhetoric that helps keep things this way. We don’t just have a few annoying bugs. We have come to the point where software everywhere is in an abysmal state. It’s frail, unreliable, inconsistent… a house of cards. It’s poorly, if at all, managed. While so-called “AI” researchers and their companies are pushing literal black boxes as a solution to every non-problem, we have virtual black boxes as a bulk of code providing our operating systems, and almost anything else we rely on daily.

“You don’t understand software development/programming” … “we can’t have perfection”… blah blah blah.

So long as everyone keeps defending the status quo with special pleading logical fallacy excuses, nothing will improve.

At this point, it’s so bad, and the badness is so entrenched and normalized, that it would take massive legislation to mandate better practices. The laissez-faire capitalism religion of the USA will not allow that process to even start.

Tech people are a perfect example of a specific community where this ideology is entrenched and they self-police against anyone stepping in to say “hey, this is a problem”, to ensure that group-think is maintained…

…As what is already happening here…
 

dysamoria

macrumors 68020
Dec 8, 2011
2,245
1,868
macOS has more in common with Windows than people think.
Exactly. I left Windows because Apple’s Mac OS was a superior product.

It’s no longer that. It’s now just less bad…

…and it’s getting less less-bad as they keep pushing out more rushed, unfinished, untested, non-optimized, convoluted, and changed-for-no-good-reason releases.
 
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bollman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2001
685
1,459
Lund, Sweden
Oh, but it gets worse!
We've seen that sometimes, a "restart" does not fix certain problems. That is due to Apple being "nice" and pausing your processes during a restart and continuing them after restart.
We've had hung processes that is not fixed by a restart. Since these are background stuff, unticking the box about restarting windows does nothing.
My guess is that this is "the future": restarting your mac will not fix anything since all processes will just pause during the restart and continue where they were afterwards.
 
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Seeds

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2023
67
54
That's not quite what I'm saying here. There will never not be bugs.

My point here is that it should be easy to automatically recover from problems should they occur. It shouldn't have a confusing result like a click doing nothing, or iCloud sync suddenly not working, or software updates failing to install with no explanation and the only option being to restart the device entirely if the problem is with a specific daemon or background service. (I shouldn't need to run a Terminal command, either.)

There also needs to be better QA/QC so that edge cases can be detected and resolved as much as possible.
What’s easier than restarting your phone? Apple only has so many people. It impossible to make everything perfect for every user.
 
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BanjoDudeAhoy

macrumors 6502a
Aug 3, 2020
851
1,511
Maybe my bug tolerance is higher than average because I work in gamedev with constantly broken tools. Or maybe I still have the constant restarts of my Windows days stuck in my head, but Mac restarts are so few and far between that they’ve never bothered me (so far).
 
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frifra

macrumors 6502a
Nov 29, 2008
921
655
Restarting is fine, I think.
Resetting is far worse.

And that is one of the main answers for apples problem solutions. Had to reset my AirPods Pro 2 three times by now.

Of course that’s worse with an iPhone or Max.
 

subzento

Suspended
Mar 24, 2023
20
11
Salt Lake City
This is the easiest way to solve the issue without bothering, especially since the device reloads in seconds, on the other hand I do not understand how it can hurt.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,977
7,151
Perth, Western Australia
My point here is that it should be easy to automatically recover from problems should they occur. It shouldn't have a confusing result like a click doing nothing

This is the way things are DESIGNED, but the implementation has bugs. Apple (or anyone else these days) doesn't intentionally require reboots to fix issues; they're a symptom of issues deep enough in the OS that recovery without re-start is not possible.
 

splitpea

macrumors 65816
Oct 21, 2009
1,137
397
Among the starlings
A few seconds?

I work with a lot of open apps and files, and it takes 3-4 minutes to reboot and restore state on the 2019 MBA that’s my daily driver. It’s even more annoying because some apps fail to properly restore open windows. (I’m looking at you, Mail.app.). You also lose edit history (undo/redo) in open files.

It’s yet more frustrating because some apps can’t fully restore state OR history. (Ex: if you have multiple CLI shells open, you only get history for one restored to all of them; env vars get reset; remote shells get terminated; past output is just plain lost.)

Having to reboot is an enormous disruption to my work.
 

JoshNori

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2022
176
196
In many Apple support threads online where people encounter strange issues with their devices, a restart often fixes the issue. Great, right? I think not.

We shouldn't have to restart our Apple devices to make them work.

Sure, Apple silicon processors are extremely fast these days, making restarts faster than ever. But the fact of the matter remains that we shouldn't need to interrupt our workflows to restart our devices.

Here is an example of this that I encounter often: AirDrop on the Mac. Sometimes it will fail to work; clicking on the icon for my iPhone or iPad will do nothing. Sometimes this can be fixed by running "killall sharingd" in Terminal; however, most of the time, I need to restart the Mac for it to work again. This is on an M1 MacBook Air, by the way. (Now, I'm not saying that we need to tell users to run a Terminal command; this is just an illustrative example.)

From what I've seen -- and this is my opinion -- most of the strange issues that people have are the result of the system entering a "quasi-working" indeterminate state that Apple did not expect to occur and as such does not provide a way for the system to recover from.

If Apple is focusing on bug fixes and performance improvements for their next-generation operating systems as the rumors say, then they need to focus on identifying edge-case/indeterminate situations and providing a way for the system to recover from them, automatically. And they need to make sure that the system can only operate in determinate, well-defined conditions.

How can this be applied to the example above? On Apple platforms, launchd is responsible for launching daemons and background tasks, and restarting these processes if they crash. However, to my knowledge, there is not a way for launchd to detect an unresponsive process and automatically restart it. In the AirDrop example above, it's my belief that the root cause is sharingd becoming unresponsive or otherwise unable to receive user input. A useful fix would be for launchd to send a "heartbeat" signal to the processes and restart them transparently if they don't respond within a certain time frame. (This approach wouldn't work for user-facing applications, but it would certainly work for background services and daemons that don't put windows on screen.)

I believe a similar approach is used in embedded systems where humans might not be physically near the system to restart it at will. If Apple truly wants to make their computers like appliances, then they should build the software with that philosophy in mind; human intervention shouldn't be required to get out of indeterminate states.

Of course, this would lead to a far better user experience, which is the point of me writing all this. Things will "just work."

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

EDIT: original post was written in a moment of frustration. Please read the thread before replying.
You have every right to be frustrated. Their software is buggy and naggy as sin, and I deal with it every single day. I’m honestly getting really sick of it and have never been closer to moving to Android or nothing. Lately I’ve started embracing cash and simplicity, closed almost all of my credit cards, deleted all but required apps, using an iPhone SE, and I am happier because I’m calmer. The computer, phone, and total disrespect for sane communication by being just intruded upon with bug after bug and popup after popup and nag and cookie and update and 🤡😯😈😧🫤🤥😑😈😷 has become 90% of what makes me a neurotic apphole. It’s not my fault for wanting to take part of the advancements in civilization that is the smartphone. It’s THEIR fault for making it all proprietary and 💩y. There needs to be more community backlash and involvement when it comes to user experience.
 

JoshNori

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2022
176
196
This is the way things are DESIGNED, but the implementation has bugs. Apple (or anyone else these days) doesn't intentionally require reboots to fix issues; they're a symptom of issues deep enough in the OS that recovery without re-start is not possible.
It’s either main memory issues or bad high level programming. I encounter similar things constantly. It’s annoying as sin. It’s the Windows virus equivalent of macOS/iOS.
 

orionquest

Suspended
Mar 16, 2022
871
788
The Great White North
The OP has something of a point. There are process's (background) which can only be fixed when they go south by a restart. Ever had safari start acting weird or unresponsive, a restart usually fixes that. Network hanging, or shares not mounting beach balling, restart will fix that.

The feedback on these types of issues is pretty non responsive from the OS other then user knowing there is something wrong by how they interact with it. Usually in the form of sluggish UI or beach balling.

When I used Windows more frequently back in the day, the Event Viewer was a great tool to review and see if anything exploded behind the scene. As far as I can tell MacOS doesn't have something like this.

Either way less bugs overall would make the OS better. As it's becoming more impossible to track down stuff when you keep tacking on more and more features, the OP's own admission to this issue is a pure example of the problem. It's like a ghost issue, they know it happens, hard to track down. Apple also doesn't do itself any favours by ramming down yearly updates with 100's of new features and yet previously broken stuff never get's any attention or updates to improve them. Rinse repeat and you have a mess of weird issues like this one.
 

prime17569

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 26, 2021
199
511
When I used Windows more frequently back in the day, the Event Viewer was a great tool to review and see if anything exploded behind the scene. As far as I can tell MacOS doesn't have something like this.

macOS has the Console app, but its filtering features, in my opinion, are subpar at best. (If you've ever tried to debug a Quick Look Extension, which is the modern replacement for Quick Look generators, you'll know what I mean.) This wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that macOS is so complex, and does so many things in the background, that even doing nothing results in tens of messages being spewed into the log per second.

When filing a feedback report, Apple makes you send a sysdiagnose which includes these logs. So they certainly have the filtering tools to trawl through the logs, but they aren't available to the user.
 

hagjohn

macrumors 68000
Aug 27, 2006
1,749
3,511
Pennsylvania
In many Apple support threads online where people encounter strange issues with their devices, a restart often fixes the issue. Great, right? I think not.

We shouldn't have to restart our Apple devices to make them work.

Sure, Apple silicon processors are extremely fast these days, making restarts faster than ever. But the fact of the matter remains that we shouldn't need to interrupt our workflows to restart our devices.

Here is an example of this that I encounter often: AirDrop on the Mac. Sometimes it will fail to work; clicking on the icon for my iPhone or iPad will do nothing. Sometimes this can be fixed by running "killall sharingd" in Terminal; however, most of the time, I need to restart the Mac for it to work again. This is on an M1 MacBook Air, by the way. (Now, I'm not saying that we need to tell users to run a Terminal command; this is just an illustrative example.)

From what I've seen -- and this is my opinion -- most of the strange issues that people have are the result of the system entering a "quasi-working" indeterminate state that Apple did not expect to occur and as such does not provide a way for the system to recover from.

If Apple is focusing on bug fixes and performance improvements for their next-generation operating systems as the rumors say, then they need to focus on identifying edge-case/indeterminate situations and providing a way for the system to recover from them, automatically. And they need to make sure that the system can only operate in determinate, well-defined conditions.

How can this be applied to the example above? On Apple platforms, launchd is responsible for launching daemons and background tasks, and restarting these processes if they crash. However, to my knowledge, there is not a way for launchd to detect an unresponsive process and automatically restart it. In the AirDrop example above, it's my belief that the root cause is sharingd becoming unresponsive or otherwise unable to receive user input. A useful fix would be for launchd to send a "heartbeat" signal to the processes and restart them transparently if they don't respond within a certain time frame. (This approach wouldn't work for user-facing applications, but it would certainly work for background services and daemons that don't put windows on screen.)

I believe a similar approach is used in embedded systems where humans might not be physically near the system to restart it at will. If Apple truly wants to make their computers like appliances, then they should build the software with that philosophy in mind; human intervention shouldn't be required to get out of indeterminate states.

Of course, this would lead to a far better user experience, which is the point of me writing all this. Things will "just work."

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

EDIT: original post was written in a moment of frustration. Please read the thread before replying.
Most electronic devices that have ever been created is often fixed by restarting. It isn't an Apple only thing.
 

Apple2501

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2021
34
20
It is annoying, less than ideal but, it’s life. Even organisms need a reboot. It’s called sleep. Expecting perfection from imperfection is folly.
 

MauiPa

macrumors 68040
Apr 18, 2018
3,430
5,080
I have none of the problems you describe, and I suspect most people don’t. It would be interesting to see if you did any troubleshooting or just think it is a universal issue

Now I will tell you I do a clean install with every major OS release in the event that some old libraries or gremlins are hanging around. I am also very careful not to get malware or download anything from sketchy sites. I do also clear my logs and remove junk files periodically. Finally I do shut down when not in use ( cause I’m a bit paranoid), and do not allow wake on network access

Hey it works
 

imagineadam

macrumors 68000
Jan 19, 2011
1,702
876
I restart my iPhone and watch every Sunday night before bed. Keeps everything running smooth. I don’t feel like this is a problem.
 
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