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What are U looking for with new TV4k
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Here's what I'd like to see in a new AppleTV...
- Not another round of 4K (2 is enough IMO): embrace 8K. It would be among the first boxes to support 8K TVs already for sale for years now (so that means it would also have the graphics horses to benefit all apps that need more robust graphics like select games). Yes, I know about "the chart" and how "nobody can see..." and "seating distances" and "chicken (content) & egg (8K hardware)", etc... ALL of the same stuff that made a 4K AppleTV make no sense to "us" while Apple clung to 1080p... which was the same stuff that made a 1080p AppleTV make no sense while Apple clung to 720p... but all of those excuses evaporate as soon as Apple actually makes the jump (none of the people who rip into a higher resolution hop will be back after Apple embraces it to call Apple stupid for doing so- THAT NEVER HAPPENS! It's only unneeded/stupid/etc until Apple goes there and then it's fine). And contrary to the typical pessimistic viewpoint, 8K-capable hardware doesn't force anyone with not-8K televisions to upgrade- they can keep enjoying whatever resolution they have (a 16K AppleTV would play 1080p to a 1080p set at its finest 1080p quality). And no, 8K videos in the iTunes Store don't become the only format you can download, so people with slow or capped internet can keep choosing the 4K or HD or SD options they choose now. (Basically: see all of the past threads about the next resolution jump, because it's all the same answers to the same obstacles some of us make up with the number changed from 4K to 8K... as it was for 1080p to 4K... and 720p to 1080p). 8K playback hardware will deliver maximized 4K or 1080p to 4K or 1080p TVs. And then those with them will be ready for their next TV when that time comes... even if that is years from now.
- full DTS audio support to mitigate one of the few real advantages of Blu Ray over AppleTV. This would also require working DTS into the video file format for AppleTV too but that seems like the easier part.
- Any additional Ultra Blu Ray advantages are matched if not exceeded so there is truly no hardware advantage to Blu Ray. Make the next AppleTV at least equivalent to Ultra Blu Ray player capabilities so there is no remaining advantage.
- a real USB-C port to which one could connect a wired camera to put on top of the TV for FaceTime, etc no matter where one stores their AppleTV AND/OR one could connect their own storage like first gen for "synching" vs. streaming everything. That ability to sync content was an outstanding feature of the first gen and a simple port could be a way to resurrect it for those who would rather store it at AppleTV vs. back at the Mac.
- Since I very much desire that local storage/sync to come back again, if not that prior bullet, how about building an accessible m.2 or two slot(s) inside for those who want big local storage. Then those interested could add up to 8TB-16TB inside the case, exactly as it works with mini PCs now. With 4TB m.2 down to $200 now (not Apple storage pricing of course), one could have 4-8TB in their new AppleTV for a total price of around $500.
- Resurrect AUX audio out too because huge numbers of Receivers with Zone 2 still need analog audio connections for Zone 2. As is, the solution is to work through many HDMI Extractors to find one that will pass through 4K HDR but successfully split off analog audio for zone 2 AND also not negatively affect CEC. One "just works" AUX port makes all Zone 2 tech work without the hassle of finding the lucky HDMI extractor. AppleTV is also a terrific music jukebox that doesn't even need a TV to be on... but killing that AUX jack mostly killed this great use of one unless someone happens to find an ideal dongle that will support it without creating problems for the video formats and CEC.
- Resurrect the Front Row app for Macs so that a Mac Mini can be much of this... basically a pro hardware AppleTV option. That would deliver up to an M3 PRO "AppleTV" with ports for all kinds of related potential in the form of the next Mac Mini. Apple wouldn't have to build any new hardware... just an updated software app they used to offer for Mac.
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Built in soundbar, then we can use HomePod min's as surround sound if we want.
I’m looking for it to be released so I can scoop up the current 4K for a steal as I need one for my projector.
Apple would never do built-in... But they'll gladly sell you one as an accesory that probably costs more than the Apple TV itself lol.
Two minor things that bug me about the current ATV, which may be fixable with just a TVOS update:
- The remote has a single, dedicated, hard-to-accidentally-hit Power button; so why the heck does it take TWO button presses to turn the damn thing off?? Makes no sense.
- I have mine set up to go to screensaver after only two minutes, as after I fix a snack I like watching those beautiful images, especially on my new OLED tv, before returning to what I'd Paused. I have to hit the Play button, wait about five seconds, then hit Play again to resume the program. And I can't quickly do a double-click, that doesn't work. Yeah, First-World problem, but 5 seconds times the number of snacks per evening, that adds up.
- The remote has a single, dedicated, hard-to-accidentally-hit Power button; so why the heck does it take TWO button presses to turn the damn thing off?? Makes no sense.
- I have mine set up to go to screensaver after only two minutes, as after I fix a snack I like watching those beautiful images, especially on my new OLED tv, before returning to what I'd Paused. I have to hit the Play button, wait about five seconds, then hit Play again to resume the program. And I can't quickly do a double-click, that doesn't work. Yeah, First-World problem, but 5 seconds times the number of snacks per evening, that adds up.
AV1 decoding and better audio pass through for lossless and atmos etc
It doesn’t have high res audio? I’ve been ripping lossless DTS blue ray audio discs onto a NAS that i then play on my Apple TV via VLC or Mr MC and they go to my stereo as DTS HD just fine….
I'd like to see tvOS become the OS installed on the actual TVs, as Roku and Google already does. I don't like having separate devices, multiple remotes, and managing settings in multiple places.
There's no 8K content. We can't even get 4K content to look good. Streaming is over-compressed. 4K re-releases are plagued with issues. Even the Aliens 4K re-release is plagued with overly-used AI—we're still perfecting scaling and noise reduction and moving to 8K would just hasten bad re-releases. Not to mention 8K TVs are near non-existent for mass market buyers. And the chips in TVs need to be good at scaling lower-res content up to 8K.
I'm not saying AppleTV shouldn't support 8K, but as a feature it won't move new sales so I fail to see why it should be a priority even for Apple. Mass markets are only catching up to 4K now and we still don't have a lot of quality 4K content being streamed. Bitrates are so low that 1080p Blu-Ray is looking better than 4K streaming.
Lets revisit when we've figured out 4K.
Oh and big retail is trying to get rid of physical media so we're really at the mercy of streaming quality. Good quality 8K is going to be awhile.
Ummm. Hold down the power button for a definitive couple of seconds and TV is off.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
This is basically the same message offered against going 4K while Apple clung to 1080p AppleTV... and 1080p while Apple clung to 720p. We do this every time... always tossing the ball to everything else needing to go <higher resolution> before AppleTV should.
Meanwhile, for the next iPhone we're clamoring for "latest & greatest" new chips even if there are zero apps to take advantage of whatever will be truly new about them. For Macs, we desperately wanted ray tracing even when there were no apps with ray tracing capability ahead of that launch. Etc. In short, for just about all computing tech, we hunger for big advances even before we have anything that can take advantage of it... except this one product for which we want delayed advancement until everything else steps up and then AppleTV can finally join the party.
As I've offered in support of going 4K and 1080p in AppleTV before... hardware must lead. You roll out hardware capable of "more" and the software- media in this case- can catch up to hardware capabilities. It can't possibly work the other way: there's no reason whatsoever to put one 8K anything in the iTunes Store before any hardware exists to play it.
AppleTV is the most expensive of the little streaming boxes. It should have clear & obvious features superior to dirt cheap competitors. 8K would be an obvious one... especially since 8K TVs have been out for years now and some people have them and would love something/anything to be able to maximize what can be shown on them. Else, assuming Apple drags their feet on this- as they did for 4K and 1080p before that- the rest of the boxes & sticks will go 8K first and Apple will drag in last.
There's now a couple of years of rumors proclaiming the NEXT iPhone will offer 8K video, so there will be a mainstream source of 8K content out in the public in big numbers when Apple finally rolls out an iPhone capable of shooting it. If not iPhone 14 as rumored, then 15 as rumored, maybe 16 finally gets that feature? And if it does, how does that video get to an 8K TV?
All pictures already shot at high resolution will display at higher resolution 8K better than scaling them down to 4K or 1080p.
And there IS professional 8K content. Other countries are producing some stuff in 8K. The 2020 Tokyo Olympics were supposed to have 200+ hours of 8K before Covid stepped in and threw some wrinkles. There's some 8K on YouTube and Vimeo. NASA offers some 8K footage to download and watch. Select Samsung phones have been able to shoot 8K since 2020. There's some 8K soccer matches in Europe. What might push for more? A way to display it on American TVs. For that we need some little box. Why not AppleTV instead of letting Roku or FireTV or Google, etc beat Apple to it... AGAIN?
Basically, roll out an 8K-capable AppleTV and then an iPhone that can shoot 8K in them "magical", "super duper" new "best cameras we've ever made" and people can shoot their own if they want and have a way to push it to their 8K TVs if they have one. In between shooting it in 8K and delivering it to the TV in 8K, they may need new Macs to edit & render it well. In spite of much spin about M1 Macs being able to juggle multiple streams of 8K video, somehow I think 8K editing will be an argument for new Macs and a new ASD-type monitor. Apple likes 💰💰💰. Embracing 8K is a very tangible thing to drive sales of new AppleTVs, new iDevices, new Macs, new Monitors, etc.
We know they are going to go there anyway... as they did when we said 720p was good enough and then 1080p is good enough. Now 4K is good enough... but only until Apple actually goes there and then 8K will be welcomed by all with open arms... as 4K and 1080p AppleTVs were before it. Why not lead the industry there instead of dragging in last this time?
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I wish Apple would find some way to leverage the Apple TV to act as a home theater controller so I can control my entire system using the Apple remote. For me it would replace a decade old Logitech Harmony system. Unfortunately, Logitech discontinued their Harmony product and there are currently no compelling replacements that are as easy to use for non-techie family members.
I have a very simple home theater system with a TV, audio receiver, Apple TV, Sony PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and it's astounding that there are no good solutions in the market anymore.
Oh, and I'd love for Apple TV to be $69 again!
I have a very simple home theater system with a TV, audio receiver, Apple TV, Sony PlayStation, and Nintendo Switch, and it's astounding that there are no good solutions in the market anymore.
Oh, and I'd love for Apple TV to be $69 again!
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Martin, there is a company called Universal Remote Control Inc that make remotes that can be programmed with macros and learn any other remote. Allocating one button to "setup" for any of your components can basically emulate the CEC we wish would work: press that setup button to execute a programmed macro and everything you have would set up for AppleTV play or PS play of Switch, etc... much like a smarter CEC implementation that magically knows what you want. Even little kids can quickly understand about putting it in the right mode and clicking one "setup" button to get TV + Receiver + Component all "on" as desired.
I've used their remotes since before the original AppleTV as my "one remote to rule them all." The one I have can work with up to 20 components. They are not cheap and it's hard to get the (Windows only) software so you can program them yourself... but if you spend the money and can get the software, they are like a Swiss Army Knife remote.
I've used their remotes since before the original AppleTV as my "one remote to rule them all." The one I have can work with up to 20 components. They are not cheap and it's hard to get the (Windows only) software so you can program them yourself... but if you spend the money and can get the software, they are like a Swiss Army Knife remote.
I'm pointing to the giant infrastructure/industry problem that Apple is subjected to and saying that it doesn't make sense if "higher sales" is what Apple is going for
- we don't have 8K content to demand people go out to buy whole new 8K TVs
- we're yet to get quality 4K streaming, so how would we get quality 8K content streamed into the device? This is a studio and publisher problem. And we need streaming companies like Netflix, Max, and Disney to get on board and they are having cost issues. So we need studios, publishers, and streaming companies to get onboard 8K.
- there aren't 8K TVs in the wild so people would have to go out and buy new $5,000 TVs to connect an 8K device to stream 8K video that wouldn't look any better than 4K content from normal viewing distances especially considering low bitrate streaming—its a mess of spaghetti
- We barely have 8K monitors for editing 8K video, and Apple certainly doesn't sell one.
- Apple sells about 100 million iPhone Pros per year worldwide. If iPhone 16 Pro shoots 8K video in Sept, who in that 100 million will be able to edit or even view 8K? Theres no 8K TVs and no 8K monitors in mass market homes. Its an early adopter thing and it will take some time for that to pick up steam before it matters (read Crossing the Charm for reference)
I don't disagree with you that Apple should add 8K support—they might as well given HDMI 2.1 supports it at 120Hz with DSC—i'm just challenging the idea that *right now* it would make a difference for 99.9% of Apple users because, in summary, 8K is a very low industry priority. If Apple released it tomorrow, every review would be the Ryan Reynolds meme, "But why?"
So is your point that hardware needs to come first in the chicken-and-egg scenario? Yes, you are correct. I just disagree that Apple TV is the device to do that. I think TVs would need to come first and that's going to be another 5 years at least.
Here are some ideas that I think would create much more demand for a new device than 8K:
- Gaming—Announce new M3 chips with 8 GB RAM and that it can now do AAA gaming; announce that Resident Evil Village and RE4 are now on Apple TV and tvOS for anyone who already bought it on iOS/Mac
- Low Price—Keep current model but lower price to $79
- Sound—Announce a soundbar that doubles as an AppleTV. People are already buying HomePods for their Apple TV—but you have to buy two (total cost: $600) to have even stereo image—so they might as well make a soundbar with Dolby Atmos support for $300 and I think more households would buy that than just a HomePod and just an AppleTV alone.
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Logitech's Harmony Hub has two unmatched features that make all the difference for a family setup.
First, the hub itself that allows creating a physically static IR control setup - it doesn't matter where anyone points the remote in their hand, IR/RF is emitted from the hub and everything always works, every time. In my case, it also means that the home theater system is completely hidden away - there is no line of sight between the remote and the home theater components.
Second, the simplicity of the companion remote. It is small, sturdy for kids and spouses to throw around, has the minimum required buttons so nobody gets confused, no confusing/useless, battery draining touchscreen, and doesn't require a silly charging cradle. Instead, it runs reliably, for years, on a CR2032 button cell. In short, it's a remote that doesn't require babysitting.
URC's remotes don't have a hub (outside of their preposterously expensive full home automation gear which is redundant for me with HomeKit) so users would need to point them in the right direction, and the remotes themselves are huge, complicated, confusing for non-experts, and high maintenance.
I think SofaBaton gets closest to Harmony because it utilizes a hub, but the remote is still like a high maintenance girlfriend.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
My stuff is a bit old but my URC did have the IR "hub" and did come with the companion remote. Maybe they don't offer those today (I don't know)... but I was just trying to give you an option with Logitech a goner. You seemed to think there were none and at least in my home, the URC scratches all itches just fine as "one remote to rule them all."
I definitely think you have a better chance with it or maybe Sofabaton or similar than Apple actually making a deluxe remote to control/manage non Apple tech. However, since this is "what we would like to see" thread, I'll wish for something better than my URC remote from Apple right with you.
These non-Apple remotes generally don't have Siri... and while I don't use it... perhaps the rumored smarter Siri to come might make it more desirable. If so, then your wish would be much more important than any alternative from anyone else unless Siri is shared with others at a fee that would motivate them to implement it.
I definitely think you have a better chance with it or maybe Sofabaton or similar than Apple actually making a deluxe remote to control/manage non Apple tech. However, since this is "what we would like to see" thread, I'll wish for something better than my URC remote from Apple right with you.
These non-Apple remotes generally don't have Siri... and while I don't use it... perhaps the rumored smarter Siri to come might make it more desirable. If so, then your wish would be much more important than any alternative from anyone else unless Siri is shared with others at a fee that would motivate them to implement it.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK, I'm not going to have this debate again as it is the same one against AppleTV going 4K before they did and 1080p before they did. Again, hardware must lead. If your first 2 bullets were universally addressed in the iTunes Store tonight, no one could make a nickel from any 8K content without some 8K hardware to play that content. First hardware, THEN software. Or at best, hardware and some software together.
There are 94 8K televisions available on Amazon right now. There are 16 8K TVs available at my local Best Buy. 8K TVs have been available for YEARS now. I don't know how we can assume "none in the wild" if they've been for sale for so many years and are abundantly available. I have some friends with 8K TVs so I know for certain that there are "some in the wild." All these companies are not rolling out new models each year to sell none of them.
We barely have 8K monitors because Apple hasn't rolled them out for us, still clinging to 5K or 6K choices. That's simply a matter of embracing 8K or- Apple being Apple- 9K or 10.5K or whatever it will be. Select new Macs have the added hardware to output to 8K monitors- a useless feature if we can only judge based on monitors available from Apple... and yet Apple put that hardware upgrade in there anyway.
One can edit 12K video on a 4K monitor if they like. Yes, they won't see every pixel but they can edit, then render the file at 12K or 8K of whatever they want. We can edit all the 4K video we shoot on iPhones on their NOT 4K screens too. It doesn't require an 8K or higher monitor to edit 8K video any more than it requires a 4K monitor to edit 4K video.
iPhone 15 rolled out with spatial video capability long before anyone could buy a single Vpro to watch those videos. So it's not unheard of for Apple to adopt a new standard even before 1 person can watch it. 8K is not a new standard. It's existed for years now. Select Samsung phones have been able to shoot it since 2020. I bet those people would love an efficient way to get it to an 8K TV if they have one. I have to assume some of them do and are presumably hooking the phone to the TV to watch their 8K home movies. I bet they'd jump on an Apple box that could get those videos there.
I have a 4K TV as my main one myself. I wouldn't run out to buy an 8K TV even if an 8K AppleTV launched tomorrow with all iTunes content in 8K and a new iDevice launched to shoot in 8K. Instead, I'd immediately add that 8K AppleTV because added hardware horsepower can easily work with less demanding screens... like new Macs able to output 8K working with 6K, 5K, 4K or lower resolution screens. So my new 8K AppleTV would downconvert any content shot in 8K for my 4K TV.
I'd immediately shoot in 8K as soon as I could, edit & render in 8K on my 5K monitor and then watch it downcoverted in 4K on my 4K TV. In a few years, when that 4K TV conks, I'd replace it with an 8K TV and all that accumulated 8K content I've not yet seen at 8K would suddenly be watchable in 8K on my next TV. Else, if I wait until the TV is 8K in my home before shooting any content in 8K, I can't come back to now to recapture any home movies at 8K... just as I can't hop back to long before anyone had a 4K TV to reshoot home movies captured at 1080p or 720p or SD or lower.
Since this is a "what would I like to see" thread, I won't shoot down your wishes. I'd love to see those first 2 bullets you offered myself. I suspect best real chance for the gaming one would be a Front Row app revival for a Mac Mini, as M3 AppleTV pricing would probably be up at Mac Mini pricing.
I think bullet 2 has a legit chance of happening with the next release of AppleTV hardware. Or at least in the refurb store if that is not the new price.
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"What are U looking for with new TV4k" ambiguous question. 1). Apple TV 4K or 2) 4k Television set?
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Offered some of that in a prior post. But does it really matter? What's available to watch in 5K? Nothing... but Apple makes 5K monitors anyway. What was available to play with Ray Tracing when M3 hit? Nothing... but Apple added it anyway. Where could one watch Spatial Video shot on iPhone 15 at launch? Nowhere... but Apple added it anyway. New Macs can export 8K video now but there's no Apple monitor able to show it at 8K... but Apple added that capability anyway.
The general pattern in the rest of the lineup is to plow forward and wait for "software" to catch up. And we customers want the next chip upgrades and the new Mac and the new iPads. We hunger for advancements in hardware... except with THIS product... where we seem to want no progress until everything else is upgraded first. It was the same with 4K AppleTV and 1080p AppleTV... with Apple embracing both about last among competing products.
An 8K AppleTV would play 4K content or 1080p content or even SD content as good as it can be played... just like a 4K AppleTV will connect to a 1080p TV and down convert 4K or play 1080p or less content just as well. 8K hardware would have to be potent hardware which means all apps could run better/faster and gaming could be better... even if one uses it connected to a 4K or 1080p set... again just like new Macs able to display 8K but we have them connected to much lower resolution screens.
Step it up with the hardware capability and the software will eventually come... like raytracing stuff... like spatial video... etc. An AppleTV 8K in homes followed by iPhone 16 that can shoot 8K would be a way to get 8K to the TV... even if the TV is 4K or 1080p. The source would be 8K and ready to show in 8K when one replaced a lessor TV with an 8K one. Watch in 4K or 1080p until you get around to replacing it with an 8K set, even if that's years from now. Pics will have added detail at higher resolution. And some studio will test the market for 8K video if it is possible to sell 8K video. While there is no way to watch it on an AppleTV, there can be no such tests. The hardware must lead.
ELSE, do we really want another generation of a 4K AppleTV if we already have a 4K AppleTV? If so, why? Faster chips. We'd definitely get that with an 8K AppleTV. Faster UI? We'd have to get that with an 8K AppleTV's faster chips. More storage? 8K version could have any such improvement too. Etc. Anything we could want in a 4K AppleTV could come in an 8K AppleTV... that would offer the bonus of 8K resolution for those able to use it now... or on down the road in a few years. So how about a big tangible gain too... instead of version 3 of basically the same?
The general pattern in the rest of the lineup is to plow forward and wait for "software" to catch up. And we customers want the next chip upgrades and the new Mac and the new iPads. We hunger for advancements in hardware... except with THIS product... where we seem to want no progress until everything else is upgraded first. It was the same with 4K AppleTV and 1080p AppleTV... with Apple embracing both about last among competing products.
An 8K AppleTV would play 4K content or 1080p content or even SD content as good as it can be played... just like a 4K AppleTV will connect to a 1080p TV and down convert 4K or play 1080p or less content just as well. 8K hardware would have to be potent hardware which means all apps could run better/faster and gaming could be better... even if one uses it connected to a 4K or 1080p set... again just like new Macs able to display 8K but we have them connected to much lower resolution screens.
Step it up with the hardware capability and the software will eventually come... like raytracing stuff... like spatial video... etc. An AppleTV 8K in homes followed by iPhone 16 that can shoot 8K would be a way to get 8K to the TV... even if the TV is 4K or 1080p. The source would be 8K and ready to show in 8K when one replaced a lessor TV with an 8K one. Watch in 4K or 1080p until you get around to replacing it with an 8K set, even if that's years from now. Pics will have added detail at higher resolution. And some studio will test the market for 8K video if it is possible to sell 8K video. While there is no way to watch it on an AppleTV, there can be no such tests. The hardware must lead.
ELSE, do we really want another generation of a 4K AppleTV if we already have a 4K AppleTV? If so, why? Faster chips. We'd definitely get that with an 8K AppleTV. Faster UI? We'd have to get that with an 8K AppleTV's faster chips. More storage? 8K version could have any such improvement too. Etc. Anything we could want in a 4K AppleTV could come in an 8K AppleTV... that would offer the bonus of 8K resolution for those able to use it now... or on down the road in a few years. So how about a big tangible gain too... instead of version 3 of basically the same?
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