What is the point of spacial audio?

[thadoggfather]

Listening to a podcast on an iOS 15 device, with my Airpods3, I dont like that it shifts mostly to one ear or the other if I turn my head.

Not sure what that accomplishes other than the gimmick of perceiving the sound is coming from the phone in a certain direction

I want full stereo, independent of what I do with my head though, in all situations ?

To make matters worse, it doesnt always reliably engage

I know you can turn it off, but I'm not sure I see the appeal or so much so that it's the default option

 

[macphoto861]

I feel the same way. It's a technical achievement, but a gimmicky one.

 

[onenorth]

The only point I see is for video conferencing. When you turn away from the camera, the shift in audio to one ear will trigger your instinct to look back toward the camera.

 

[thadoggfather]

The only point I see is for video conferencing. When you turn away from the camera, the shift in audio to one ear will trigger your instinct to look back toward the camera.

I could see that good use case

 

[NastyMatt]

That is head tracking, you can turn it off in accessibility, airpods. I don't think it's fully appreciated in a Podcast, try using it while watching a film.

 

[thadoggfather]

That is head tracking, you can turn it off in accessibility, airpods. I don't think it's fully appreciated in a Podcast, try using it while watching a film.

even worse.

I want my stereo solidly stereo, not changing if I physically move positions.

Not sure how that enhances me consuming a film.

 

[NastyMatt]

even worse.

I want my stereo solidly stereo, not changing if I physically move positions.

Not sure how that enhances me consuming a film.

Have you tried it when watching a film?

The difference being, when listening to a podcast or music you have no reference point from where the sound should be coming as you don't tend to stare at the screen. It's the opposite when when watching a film, you do have a reference point and you tend to look at it for most of the time. So if you do move your head (you still have stereo) it just sounds like it is still coming from your reference point.

Eh, it might not be for you, but try it before making assumptions. Some people love it others do not. For me, it adds to the immersion in films, especially when watching my IPP. I do not have it on for music as my phone is in my pocket so head tracking makes no "sense" then.

 

[ericwn]

It’s certainly most suited for movie content to create a 360 degree soundstage.

For a bit more detail see https://www.tomsguide.com/amp/reference/what-is-apple-spatial-audio-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it as an example.

 

[AL2TEACH]

even worse.

I want my stereo solidly stereo, not changing if I physically move positions.

Not sure how that enhances me consuming a film.

in a Quite Place II, when the guy places his hand over the mother's mouth to keep her quiet, you can hear the alien crawling above and the sound is above not on the side. pretty good sound stage. I would say, it's like having 3 speakers, stereo plus a speaker above. of course, it all depends on the sound mix of the film but when it's good it's good.

 

[thadoggfather]

I guess film is wasted on me since I don’t really watch movies on my iOS devices

 

[AL2TEACH]

I guess film is wasted on me since I don’t really watch movies on my iOS devices

an Apple TV would work. I will have to see if the apple+ app w/o the Apple TV works.

 

[NastyMatt]

Remember - Spatial Audio is the 3D effect i.e sound all around you. Head Tracking is when you move your head it sounds like the sound is still coming from a specific point. Easily confused.

That's why I like SA and HT for films, but only SA for music. Apple Music does some decent demo stuff for SA, so you can tell if you like that for music or not. You need gyroscopes for HT, that's why most headphones can do SA but only Airpods can do HT.

 

[bigshot]

I think this particular implementation of spatial audio is just a start. It's clunky and not particularly impressive, but there is a lot further it could be taken. The big problem is individual listeners' perception of spatial cues. What works for one person won't necessarily work for other. Spatial audio is a great big dud for me. I don't get any sense of surround from it. It's just like a different stereo mix. If Apple came up with a way to calibrate the sound to individual HRTF, that would make a huge difference. Hopefully, they are working on that. In the meantime, I have my 5.1 speaker system.

 

[perezr10]

The intent of spatial audio is to allow the artist to present his music the way that he/she wants the audience to perceive it. It should really have nothing to do with Apple.

The artist may want the vocals to sound close to your ears but the guitars farther out. Or he may want a crescendo to slowly arise from the back and work towards you. Apple would have no say in how the song is constructed. But as others mentioned, we’re in that awkward beginning stage full of music that wasn’t really designed for spatial audio.

Head tracking is a totally separate feature that locks to your head position. This would help simulate a live concert. Of course, that is a very limited use case so most people turn it off. I almost suspect that this previews future Apple plans for VR concerts.

But spatial audio is like the new OS for music. It will be up to the developers (musicians) to do something with it. And if a song sounds weird, the onus will be on the artist.

 

[bigshot]

I don’t think the artists have anything to do with spatial audio. They’re supervising a 5.1 or Atmos mix designed for a multichannel speaker system, and Apple is running that through a proprietary process that spits it out as two channels for headphones. Those are apples and oranges.

 

[AL2TEACH]

this is a long read that according to him explains the difference between Dolby Atmos and Apple's Spatial Audio with music.

Why Your Atmos Mix Will Sound Different On Apple Music | Production Expert

In this article Edgar Rothermich gives a detailed explanation of the differences between Dolby Atmos and Apple’s Spatial Audio and all the steps you have to take to audition a Spatial Audio rendering of your Atmos mix!

www.pro-tools-expert.com

a little shorter read and less technical.

What's the Difference Between Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos? | Gear Patrol

Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos are both immersive audio technologies, but they're not the same. We break down the similarities and differences.

www.gearpatrol.com

I hope these two articles clear up some confusion between Apple's Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos.

 

[perezr10]

I don’t think the artists have anything to do with spatial audio. They’re supervising a 5.1 or Atmos mix designed for a multichannel speaker system, and Apple is running that through a proprietary process that spits it out as two channels for headphones. Those are apples and oranges.

Have you seen the latest version of Logic Pro? There are new mixer and panner controls. The artist can literally move the sound direction around on the screen to where he wants it. I’m not sure where you’re getting that they have nothing to do with spatial audio. I watched a short demo and it looks like they have complete control of the steering wheel.

 

[bigshot]

It has nothing to do with Apple's version of spatial audio. Atmos works. Spatial audio for AirPods doesn't. In order to down mix multichannel audio to headphones and have it work, you need to calibrate for HRTF. There is no one size fits all when it comes to spatial cues in headphones.

Almost all of the spatial audio tracks in Apple Music are down mixes from already released 5.1 and Atmos mixes that come from SACD and blu-ray audio.

 

[perezr10]

It has nothing to do with Apple's version of spatial audio. Atmos works. Spatial audio for AirPods doesn't. In order to down mix multichannel audio to headphones and have it work, you need to calibrate for HRTF. There is no one size fits all when it comes to spatial cues in headphones.

Almost all of the spatial audio tracks in Apple Music are down mixes from already released 5.1 and Atmos mixes that come from SACD and blu-ray audio.

Yeah, I think everyone agrees that the current crop of stuff being ”translated” can get weird.

But according to people who are already using Logic Pro to make new music, it works pretty well. And the whole emphasis is on fitting 13 speaker systems down to a 2-speaker left/right headphone system.

Mix in spatial audio Dolby atoms logic pro

 

[bigshot]

The problem isn't the mix technology. It's the non-standard nature of people's ears. We perceive depth and direction by interpreting how sound reflects off our ears, head, shoulders and torso. It's an extremely individual effect, no two people are alike in how they perceive spatial sound cues. When you put headphones on, all of that is messed with and the sound turns into a straight line through the middle of your head. In order to make it sound spatial, it has to be calibrated to your particular HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function). This calibration involves time shifting and equalization to simulate the effect your body has on the sound you hear. To date, the only device that I know of that is able to do this is the Smyth Realiser. But if Apple came up with a way for users to calibrate sound using the iPhone, then spatial audio would really be spatial. Right now, to me Apple's spatial audio sounds exactly like regular headphones, just with a different mix. It sounds nothing like my multichannel speaker system.

This is why binaural audio never caught on for professional recording. It sounds different to different people. Some people hear 3D, but many people just hear a bunch of random reverb and phase shifting.

 

[perezr10]

The problem isn't the mix technology. It's the non-standard nature of people's ears. We perceive depth and direction by interpreting how sound reflects off our ears, head, shoulders and torso. It's an extremely individual effect, no two people are alike in how they perceive spatial sound cues. When you put headphones on, all of that is messed with and the sound turns into a straight line through the middle of your head. In order to make it sound spatial, it has to be calibrated to your particular HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function). This calibration involves time shifting and equalization to simulate the effect your body has on the sound you hear. To date, the only device that I know of that is able to do this is the Smyth Realiser. But if Apple came up with a way for users to calibrate sound using the iPhone, then spatial audio would really be spatial. Right now, to me Apple's spatial audio sounds exactly like regular headphones, just with a different mix. It sounds nothing like my multichannel speaker system.

This is why binaural audio never caught on for professional recording. It sounds different to different people. Some people hear 3D, but many people just hear a bunch of random reverb and phase shifting.

Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I‘ve been listening to spatial audio every day for weeks and I do hear the depth. Also, the complaints I’ve heard from other people who say it’s “weird” is that instruments do sound farther or closer and they don’t like it. I‘ve found a good mix of music professionals online who also seem to disagree with what you’re saying that ”it’s not possible to replicate on headphones”. But go do your own research. If it’s not possible, a whole lot of people seem to think it is.

 

[bigshot]

Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I‘ve been listening to spatial audio every day for weeks and I do hear the depth.

You happen to sit in the sweet spot for the stock calibration then. An awful lot of people fall outside of that. People who deviate a little will say the sound is weird and unnatural. Those like me who have large heads don't hear any spatiality at all. That is why HRTF calibration is needed.

By the way, I didn't say it isn't possible to replicate spatial sound on headphones. The Smyth Realiser does that fairly well. But it involves a careful calibration setup protocol and complex processing using a computer to do it. Apple may be able to do that in the future, but they aren't anywhere close to doing that yet.

Some references for you...

Realiser A16 the world's most advanced 3d audio processor

The Realiser A16 is the world’s most advanced personalised head-tracked 3D headphone processor, rendering 15.1.8ch Dolby Atmos with breath-taking realism.

smyth-research.com

Head-related transfer function - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'd also suggest finding a friend with a really good multichannel speaker setup and ask to hear one of the albums that Apple has converted to Spatial Audio. You'll hear how the multichannel mix is supposed to sound that way. AirPods don't come close. (yet)

 

[perezr10]

By the way, I didn't say it isn't possible to replicate spatial sound on headphones. The Smyth Realiser does that fairly well. But it involves a careful calibration setup protocol and complex processing using a computer to do it. Apple may be able to do that in the future, but they aren't anywhere close to doing that yet.

Ah, ok, I ‘m with you now. It’s kind of like saying that your AirPods can never replicate the bass hit of a 12” sub-woofer. Yes, I’d agree that a good multi-channel speaker system is never going to get beat by some in-ear headphones.

 

[bigshot]

But the thing is, headphones CAN replicate the sound of a multichannel speaker system if your individual HRTF is taken into account. With a Smyth Realiser, you can accurately hear the directionality and space all around you, pointing at each speaker with your eyes closed. You can also do room simulations, creating everything from a recording studio ambience to a concert hall. You have over a dozen different sound sources which can be placed anywhere in space around you. It's still a little buggy and not as flexible as it could be, but it shows that someday it will be possible to create an aural "holodeck" around you using headphones.

I bought the AirPods Max in hopes that spatial audio would be a stripped down version of the Smyth Realiser, but it isn't. It's just normal headphone sound with some random reverbs and phase shifts thrown in. Some of them sound good, some sound terrible. The difference is all in the quality of the mix, not what spatial audio is adding to the sound.

 

[anthony13]

Listening to a podcast on an iOS 15 device, with my Airpods3, I dont like that it shifts mostly to one ear or the other if I turn my head.

Not sure what that accomplishes other than the gimmick of perceiving the sound is coming from the phone in a certain direction

I want full stereo, independent of what I do with my head though, in all situations ?

To make matters worse, it doesnt always reliably engage

I know you can turn it off, but I'm not sure I see the appeal or so much so that it's the default option

Totally agree. I thought it was neat at first but it just sounds like an echoey mess with no presence now.