Where's the "WOW factor" gone?

[pc_convert?]

Judging from the various comments about the new PowerMacs the community seems pretty split. Whilst I think everyone would agree that the PowerMacs needed a refresh, not everyone is content the refresh they got (me included). The new machines are nice but they don't seem to have the "wow factor".

I'm a PC user and also use an iBook. I've been waiting to get a PowerMac for a while now but the "wow factor" hasn't been enough to make me part with my money.

Modern PC's come equipped with DDR FSB up to 400MHz, USB2, Firewire, digital audio in/out, 10/100Mb NICs and they cost less than Macs.

Now I'm not bitching about the price of Macs, I'll be perfectly happy to part with my money but not until Macs have the "wow factor" back.

My idea of a "wow factor" Mac?

64bit CPU @ 800MHz+ - G5 or the new cut-down power4 from IBM. It needs to be fast, SMP capable and use a point-to-point bus i.e. RapidIO or Hypertransport. PC users have AMDs Opteron coming soon and it flies.

DDR FSB @ 400 MHz+ - PCs are there, Apple should be (Motorola’s fault).

Serial ATA - transfer rates of up to 150MB/s and hot plugable for the same cost as parallel ATA, backward compatible and can use existing drives with a converter, nice thin cables for improved airflow. It's the future standard.

Firewire2/Gigawire - first to market to demonstrate Apple's technical excellence.

USB2 - to keep up with modern PCs

Digital audio in/out - to keep up with modern PCs. Apple brought emagic to regain market share in the audio market. Hey Steve, 'Digital Hub!!!' lets get the musicians back.

Dolby 5.1 decoding - modern PCs have it (nForce/2).

AGPx8 - again keeping up with modern PCs.

Bluetooth built-in- we know its coming.

It needs to be quiet - how about a heatpipe system like on small form factor PC's with a temperature controlled fan.

New enclosure - lets have some pure Apple style. Show off a bit....

Have I missed anything?

Oh and I'd like it in January 2003 for around $2000.

If anyone thinks my demands are unacceptable constructive critisim is welcome...

 

[tjwett]

yeah, remember the Cube...
those days are long gone<sniffle>

 

[scem0]

I could not agree more. I have no right to complain, but I do have the right to voice what I think would be a machine that would help apple. Apple needs to get up-to-date...

 

[nuckinfutz]

Something is coming

Apple's Hardware changes have been fairly basic. They're going to rock your world soon....maybe not in January but soon enough.

 

[Chryx]

Re: Where's the "WOW factor" gone?

Originally posted by pc_convert?
64bit CPU @ 800MHz+ - G5 or the new cut-down power4 from IBM. It needs to be fast, SMP capable and use a point-to-point bus i.e. RapidIO or Hypertransport. PC users have AMDs Opteron coming soon and it flies.[/B]

POWER4-lite on .13 should be good for around 2Ghz'ish
That'll do for a start

Dolby 5.1 decoding - modern PCs have it (nForce/2).

Nforce does Dolby 5.1 ENCODING as well, it can map a surround sound stream for a game in realtime.

AGPx8 - again keeping up with modern PCs.

Agreed, unless someone has a good reason why they don't need it (which I doubt)

New enclosure - lets have some pure Apple style. Show off a bit....

I have this mental image of something that looks like a giant iPod, but the case isn't the important bit, the guts are.

Oh and I'd like it in January 2003 for around $2000.

I'd like it now for $20

 

[Macpoops]

ok no pc has 400+ DDR FSB they have they have DDR running on a 133 bus but because it of the DDR it is EFFECTIVELY running at 533

 

[awrc]

Re: Where's the "WOW factor" gone?

Originally posted by pc_convert?
Modern PC's come equipped with DDR FSB up to 400MHz,

Where? It may be that I've got out of touch since I've not used my PC much in the last six months, but the fastest standard for DDR on the PC right now is 333MHz. Yes, a couple of manufacturers are producing memory that's specified at 400MHz but that's aimed at overclockers.

In fact, the PC scene (outside of the world of overclockers, which I'm ignoring because it represents a tiny fraction of the user base) seems to have the reverse problem - you've got Pentium 4s out there with 400MHz and 533mHz FSB, on boards that are specced only to take PC2700 DDR memory (which is 333MHz, if I'm not mistaken). I suppose there's always RDRAM.

64bit CPU @ 800MHz+ - G5 or the new cut-down power4 from IBM. It needs to be fast, SMP capable and use a point-to-point bus i.e. RapidIO or Hypertransport. PC users have AMDs Opteron coming soon and it flies.

Yeah, I agree we need this, and I suspect it's coming. Apple may disappoint with these baby speed bumps, but they're surely aware that they're lagging. Also note that Apple's part of the Hypertransport consortium, that nVidia (somewhat friendly with Apple of late) are about the only people using Hypertransport with their chipsets...some possibilities there.

It's also only fair to compare like with like. Sure forthcoming stuff like Opteron is going to be seriously fast, but it's still a little while away. I'm getting particularly tired of people coming out with quotes like"Dell are at 3GHz and we're stuck at 1.25GHz". Fastest machine you can currently buy from Dell is 2.4GHz. It's very easy to make Apple look extra bad if you compare future PC products with current Apple ones

DDR FSB @ 400 MHz+ - PCs are there, Apple should be (Motorola’s fault).

PCs aren't there yet officially. 333MHz DDR is the current standard unless you're willing to pay a premium for Corsair memory then overclock stuff. So in terms of memory speed, Apple are keeping up. I'll, uh, quietly ignore the issue of the Apple FSB...OK, I think that was a misstep. Can only hope we'll see a rapid speedbump when the G4s with faster FSB appear (and lots of pissed off people who just bought machines).

Serial ATA - transfer rates of up to 150MB/s and hot plugable for the same cost as parallel ATA, backward compatible and can use existing drives with a converter, nice thin cables for improved airflow. It's the future standard.

Apple has always lagged in this area for some reason. I was almost shocked when I bought my G4 in February and found that ATA66 was it, when I'd had ATA100 drives in PCs for over a year.

Firewire2/Gigawire - first to market to demonstrate Apple's technical excellence.

Now Firewire2 kinda has to come at the same time as...

USB2 - to keep up with modern PCs

...otherwise they'll damage the market for Firewire. I suspect we won't see USB2 in Apple machines until there's Firewire2 to keep the high speed/low speed distinction.

Digital audio in/out - to keep up with modern PCs. Apple brought emagic to regain market share in the audio market. Hey Steve, 'Digital Hub!!!' lets get the musicians back.

Certainly wouldn't hurt.

Dolby 5.1 decoding - modern PCs have it (nForce/2).

Likewise.

AGPx8 - again keeping up with modern PCs.

Some of the wording on items in the Apple store (i.e. the GeForce 4 Ti) suggests that we might well see AGP8X in the next round.

It needs to be quiet - how about a heatpipe system like on small form factor PC's with a temperature controlled fan.

Heatpipes add complexity. I was pondering putting together a Shuttle FS40G box just for fun, but ruled it out a) because I didn't really need it and had other things to spend the money on and b) because a lot of people have been having trouble with the heatpipe assemblies not fitting just right (i.e. either the radiator's straight and the heatsink isn't on quite right, or vice versa). Factory fitted heatpipe assemblies will have a price attached.

I pretty much gave up on PCs because I was spending more time lapping heatsinks, trying to get perfect contact with Arctic Silver 3 on a tiny die and dealing with heatsink/fan combos so big that they had to be bolted to the motherboard that I wasn't leaving much time for actually using the computer.

Also have to say that although my dual G4 is noisy, it's barely noticable after an afternoon of working on my Athlon box.

Oh and I'd like it in January 2003 for around $2000.

Ah, fantasy time.

I think your demands aren't, for the most part, unreasonable, except perhaps for the timeframe and the pricing. Loosen the timeframe to Q1 2003 and it might happen, I'm not even going to hazard a guess on pricing since I suspect that what we eventually get for a CPU won't be something that currently (officially) exists. I'd expect Apple to stick to their basic price points, but I wouldn't want to bet anything on which of those price points new machines will come in at. Has Apple ever offered two different architectures at the same price points? (just looking for precedence for a dual 1.25GHz and a single processor G5 machine being simultaneously available).

 

[beez7777]

Re: Where's the "WOW factor" gone?

USB2 - to keep up with modern PCs

Of course, its not a real computer with out precious USB2 ports

 

[beez7777]

why is there a need for USB2 when we got firewire?

 

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by beez7777
why is there a need for USB2 when we got firewire?

For the really fast typists, or the new super charged mouse.

Most likely for a faster printer/scanner interface.

 

[Over Achiever]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Most likely for a faster printer/scanner interface.

That'll be a big plus...usb2 scanners are quite nice and fast. I guess I wouldn't mind having my big print jobs get to the printer faster either. Finally...if digital cameras adopt the USB 2.0 standard, I wouldn't mind either (of course I'll need massive digicard storage like the 1GB IBM Microdrive). Not everything uses firewire ya'll know, and faster speeds never hurt.

We'll get Gigawire soon, and apple won't ignore USB 2.

 

[topicolo]

Originally posted by Macpoops
ok no pc has 400+ DDR FSB they have they have DDR running on a 133 bus but because it of the DDR it is EFFECTIVELY running at 533

uhh, yeah, right. so by "DOUBLE Data Rate," you can increase the bus speed from 133 to 533? uh huh. Last time I checked, 133x2 = 266. The 533 bus is QDR, not DDR. There's a noticeable difference.

 

[rekras]

i strongly believe the reason why the updated new powermacs are not high monoliths of silver with floating titanium screens yet is simply because they are stalling until the release of the G5 (hopefully early 2003), i do agree with you however that the new powermacs are quite ugly, but it's simply not cost effective to do a from-the-ground-up redesign, not to mention new advertisement, for a machine that now has a faster chip... get what I'm saying. I think you just need to hold your breath until the G5 arrives, trust me, knowing apple, the WOW factor will be in full force.

 

[BongHits]

in real world tests doesn't firewire still run faster than usb 2 while at the same time providing more bus power (it can recharge batteries etc while USB 2 can NOT from my understanding) personally i could care less if i NEVER see usb 2 on a mac, everything i need comes in firewire and prices are going to drop fast by next year. usb 1 serves its purpose (mouse, printer, scanner, keyboard, etc) but if 2 is unable to charge my devices as i use them then firewire is perfect for me.

 

[firewire2001]

Originally posted by BongHits
in real world tests doesn't firewire still run faster than usb 2 while at the same time providing more bus power (it can recharge batteries etc while USB 2 can NOT from my understanding) personally i could care less if i NEVER see usb 2 on a mac, everything i need comes in firewire and prices are going to drop fast by next year. usb 1 serves its purpose (mouse, printer, scanner, keyboard, etc) but if 2 is unable to charge my devices as i use them then firewire is perfect for me.

i would assume usb 2 can recharge devices since usb 1 can... http://www.trendyfone.com/usbcharger.htm ... that doesnt look like the best p-lace to get one.. but they offer em..

 

[BongHits]

hmmm...i swear i remember reading somewhere that usb cannot charge a battery like firewire can....obviously i am mistaken, thanks for the correction

im still in love with firewire if only for the simple reason that the connector is shaped so it can only fit one way and i dont have to look at the orientation of the port every time i switch usb cables.

 

[BongHits]

in real world tests doesn't firewire still run faster than usb 2 while at the same time providing more bus power (it can recharge batteries etc while USB 2 can NOT from my understanding) personally i could care less if i NEVER see usb 2 on a mac, everything i need comes in firewire and prices are going to drop fast by next year. usb 1 serves its purpose (mouse, printer, scanner, keyboard, etc) but if 2 is unable to charge my devices as i use them then firewire is perfect for me.

 

[bousozoku]

USB2.0 is important because the number of USB1.1 devices is dwindling and if we expect to use the new devices, we have to be compatible. Remember than USB languished in PCs until the iMac came along and suddenly, USB was important. I see the lack of FireWire2 holding back the adoption of USB2.0 in Macs.

Apple has to be doing a lot in the background. Could it be that they're waiting for the quantity of speedier G4s is truly constrained by the quality of the chips? They have shown in the past that they won't put out low quantity machines, other than the 20th anniversay Macintosh. They let PowerComputing have the high speed and low yields from IBM first because there weren't enough to sell in huge volume.

Wait, but don't hold your breath. Blue is not a good colour for you.

 

[pc_convert?]

I think the whole Firewire/USB2 thing is a bit out of proportion.

It's clear that certain people have favorites one way or the other, but it's good to have choices.

Apple is embracing standards in a way it never has before, and this is great for the consumer because technology should be about the freedom to choose.

If you don't/wont use USB2 okay, but it's good to embrace the standard and have the choice.

 

[jayscheuerle]

usb2 vs. firewire

The biggest difference between the two is that firewire has a built in processor while usb2 shares the main processor, thus its speed is directly related to the speed of the processor.

 

[iH8Quark]

Re: Something is coming

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Apple's Hardware changes have been fairly basic. They're going to rock your world soon....maybe not in January but soon enough.

I really get perturbed by these comments. They should be "rocking our world" right NOW with the prices they're charging and the Power line's miserable performance.

 

[bousozoku]

Re: usb2 vs. firewire

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
The biggest difference between the two is that firewire has a built in processor while usb2 shares the main processor, thus its speed is directly related to the speed of the processor.

Besides that, FireWire devices don't require a computer in-between them.

 

[AmbitiousLemon]

there is a VERY good reason for NOT wanting usb2 on powermacs. usb2 is intel's way of killing firewire. now i have no attachment for firewire. let it die if something better replaces it, but usb2 is SLOWER than fw. in other words whatever usb2 can do, firwire can do faster.

i do not want apple to help intel kill a superior technology. it is frightening how many people come here yammering about how they want usb2. it makes me fear that just like in the past (windows vs mac os, vhs vc beta-max, etc) an inferior technology will replace a superior one simply because people are stupid. talk all you want about having 'choices' but supporting usb2 is the surest way to eliminate your 'choices' and leave you with the worst possible 'choice.'

 

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
there is a VERY good reason for NOT wanting usb2 on powermacs. usb2 is intel's way of killing firewire. now i have no attachment for firewire. let it die if something better replaces it, but usb2 is SLOWER than usb2. in other words whatever usb2 can do, firwire can do faster.

i do not want apple to help intel kill a superior technology. it is frightening how many people come here yammering about how they want usb2. it makes me fear that just like in the past (windows vs mac os, vhs vc beta-max, etc) an inferior technology will replace a superior one simply because people are stupid. talk all you want about having 'choices' but supporting usb2 is the surest way to eliminate your 'choices' and leave you with the worst possible 'choice.'

weird, isn't it?

the school districts where i live in northern california are replacing their macs with dells

that is a perfect example of replacing something good with something not as good

 

[ibookin']

Originally posted by jefhatfield


weird, isn't it?

the school districts where i live in northern california are replacing their macs with dells

that is a perfect example of replacing something good with something not as good

I am sorry to hear about the grave mistake these school districts are making. I work at a public high school in Los Angeles part-time and we have full confidence in Apple to supply the education market with easy to use, durable, and long-lasting computers. Thanks to a grant called AB2882, we were able to equip every classroom in the school with a 600MHz G3 iMac. Another grant allowed us to get 12 G4s with 17" Studio Displays for a media production facility. In both cases we were given the option of choosing IBM machines, yet we still chose Apple, even after having the IBMs recommended to us by the district supervisors.

If we had chosen the IBMs they would have been obsolete by the end of the school year. The iMacs are still in production.

Schools still like Apple. Especially the ones that know what they're doing.