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throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,845
7,008
Perth, Western Australia
An RX6900XT and newer Wi-Fi/Bluetooth aren't worth crap if the system bus is too ancient to provide meaningful bandwidth to the rest of the system.

NVMe wasn't available back then, and sure a PCIe card will be better than the SATA II interfaces, but, even then, what am I buying other than a Mac that has to be hacked to hell just to run Monterey?

I get a need to keep 4,1 and 5,1 machines that are still used as tools alive. I get the retro collector element nature to it. But unless we're living in the past, macOS-wise, I don't see the practical point of picking one up in 2023.

I really think some old die hard Mac Pro users need to try using a modern machine with modern external IO for comparison.

No matter how expandable they are, not matter how many DIMMs you put in it, eventually time catches up with the lack of CPU features for hardware acceleration, IO bus speeds, etc.
 

solaris8x86

macrumors regular
Nov 24, 2007
235
64
Saturn
I use my 5,1 with OCLP. I'm on Monterey with RX 5700XT now, but I assumed if downgraded to Polaris or Vega, I could use Ventura.

With Vega (I do), it would boot up to Ventura. Just the GPU without hardware acceleration enabled on h264, HEVC. That causes no way to effectively to use the FCPX for editing any movie clips. As a ressult. It is useless.
 

ZombiePhysicist

macrumors 68030
May 22, 2014
2,785
2,684
I really think some old die hard Mac Pro users need to try using a modern machine with modern external IO for comparison.

No matter how expandable they are, not matter how many DIMMs you put in it, eventually time catches up with the lack of CPU features for hardware acceleration, IO bus speeds, etc.

Please let me know how you get that 12000MB/sec SSD going and through that 40gb thuderbolt straw (I wont bother you with the 25000MB/sec options). And how well that 100Gbe ethernet works for you. Also, enjoy the rats nest of wires, cables, etc. while youre at it.

MacPro-with-wires.jpg


IMG_8974-768x1024.jpg

Maybe some of us have been there and done that and forgotten more than many other users will learn in this or the next lifetime...
 
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BeatCrazy

macrumors 601
Jul 20, 2011
4,963
4,287
With Vega (I do), it would boot up to Ventura. Just the GPU without hardware acceleration enabled on h264, HEVC. That causes no way to effectively to use the FCPX for editing any movie clips. As a ressult. It is useless.
I see. So with Monterey, you do have GPU hardware acceleration with Polaris/Vega/Navi?
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,845
7,008
Perth, Western Australia
Please let me know how you get that 12000MB/sec SSD going and through that 40gb thuderbolt straw (I wont bother you with the 25000MB/sec options). And how well that 100Gbe ethernet works for you. Also, enjoy the rats nest of wires, cables, etc. while youre at it.

MacPro-with-wires.jpg


IMG_8974-768x1024.jpg

Maybe some of us have been there and done that and forgotten more than many other users will learn in this or the next lifetime...

So you're running 100 gig to the desk? 100 Gig-E is working just fine for me in my network, in dual 100GbE port-channels.

The new Mac Pro has slots too.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

macrumors 68030
May 22, 2014
2,785
2,684
So you're running 100 gig to the desk? 100 Gig-E is working just fine for me in my network, in dual 100GbE port-channels.

The new Mac Pro has slots too.
Um your post talked about external io. Why are you changing goal posts and running back to slots? I thought “I really think some old die hard Mac Pro users need to try using a modern machine with modern external IO for comparison.” And here you are running back to internal io. I guess it’s completely different when you use it.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
8,845
7,008
Perth, Western Australia
Um your post talked about external io. Why are you changing goal posts and running back to slots? I thought “I really think some old die hard Mac Pro users need to try using a modern machine with modern external IO for comparison.” And here you are running back to internal io. I guess it’s completely different when you use it.

I probably should have left the IO bit out of the original post *shrug*. It wasn't intended to be the key point (mostly to differentiate the apple silicon machines); But in any case, it is still relevant...

My point with that was that even a Mac mini these days will probably get things done faster (CPU/ML cores) and the external IO will get work in and out of it quicker (over ethernet to a local SAN being a possible exception for the Mac Pro - IF you have 100 gigE).

Point being - the CPU/GPU in the old machines, and the latest CPU upgrade available for them is ancient and slow. You're still going to be dealing with USB 2 (or at best USB 3 ports without an add in card) - which means every time someone hands you a current generation external SSD (or other current high speed device), you're boned (back to USB3 speed).

Any time you need to deal with a modern video codec, you're boned.
Any time you need to run anything that uses ML cores, guess what... you're boned.


So, are you actually using that 100 gigE port on your Mac Pro in actual reality? Which ones are supported?


And if you're running Windows on it for driver support.... just build a PC based Windows box for it. It will be better at that.
 
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BeatCrazy

macrumors 601
Jul 20, 2011
4,963
4,287
Yes. There're drivers come with (up to) Monterey.
One more question please - With Ventura, are there no acceleration drivers for Polaris/Vega/Navi at all (not even to support macOS UI?), or just no drivers to support hardware accelerated tasks like HEVC decoding?
 

solaris8x86

macrumors regular
Nov 24, 2007
235
64
Saturn
One more question please - With Ventura, are there no acceleration drivers for Polaris/Vega/Navi at all (not even to support macOS UI?), or just no drivers to support hardware accelerated tasks like HEVC decoding?
For Mac Pro 5,1 & 6,1

On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 6,1 (build-in D700 GPU)
On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 6,1 (using external Vega GPU (I'm using Vega 56)
On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 5,1 (using PCI Vega GPU)
and..
On Ventura: Even without the hardware acceleration enabled on both Mac Pro 5,1 & 6,1. The macOS UI is still working.
 
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BeatCrazy

macrumors 601
Jul 20, 2011
4,963
4,287
For Mac Pro 5,1 & 6,1

On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 6,1 (build-in D700 GPU)
On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 6,1 (using external Vega GPU (I'm using Vega 56)
On Ventura: No hardware acceleration driver for Mac Pro 5,1 (using PCI Vega GPU)
and..
On Ventura: Even without the hardware acceleration enabled on both Mac Pro 5,1 & 6,1. The macOS UI is still working.
Seems like the acceleration drivers for Navi GPUs should still be present in Ventura, since Navi GPUs in an eGPU still work on natively-supported Ventura Macs. Or does eGPU not support acceleration?
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
5,796
2,386
Los Angeles, CA
I really think some old die hard Mac Pro users need to try using a modern machine with modern external IO for comparison.

No matter how expandable they are, not matter how many DIMMs you put in it, eventually time catches up with the lack of CPU features for hardware acceleration, IO bus speeds, etc.
I definitely don't disagree. I think many are just used to having the freedom and flexibility and are having to come to grips with the fact that (a) it costs a minimum of $7000 to get that on an Apple Silicon Mac ($~4000ish to get it on a refurbished 2019 Mac Pro) and (b) there are better alternatives out there to having a PCIe Mac (at least for those that don't absolutely require a PCIe Mac).
 

romanof

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2020
297
337
Texas
Indeed it can't, if MacOS is your OS of choice. But twin Xeons and 16GB of RAM will work really well with Linux, and continue to do so for many years to come. Even my Core 2 Duo iMac runs Linux really well, far better than trying to force it to run, say, Catalina. This hardware is fabulous, so it should be useful as lonfg as possible.
And the old GC works really great with Linux. I was given one (along with a Trash Can) and thought I had no use for such. But, the build quality and changability of components was quite interesting, so I put several varieties of Linux on it just for grins and discovered that it makes a fine open source box. I had no single problem with drivers, even when I replaced the old SATA drive with a new SSD, and added both a random wifi card and a USB 3.1 pci addition from off the shelf.

It most definitely is not a Mac Studio, (15 seconds to load a particular Sqlite database, as opposed to instantaneous on the M1) but there is no drag whatsoever in CLI mode (as it should not have) and even with a GUI, the mouse and effects are clean and snappy.

And it is QUIET! That puts it ahead of my Ryzen tower that is always roaring in takeoff mode. I have already shoved the PC into a corner and put the CG in its place while I give it a run.

I might even keep it for real use.
 
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DCBassman

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2021
511
299
West Devon, UK
And the old GC works really great with Linux. I was given one (along with a Trash Can) and thought I had no use for such. But, the build quality and changability of components was quite interesting, so I put several varieties of Linux on it just for grins and discovered that it makes a fine open source box. I had no single problem with drivers, even when I replaced the old SATA drive with a new SSD, and added both a random wifi card and a USB 3.1 pci addition from off the shelf.

It most definitely is not a Mac Studio, (15 seconds to load a particular Sqlite database, as opposed to instantaneous on the M1) but there is no drag whatsoever in CLI mode (as it should not have) and even with a GUI, the mouse and effects are clean and snappy.

And it is QUIET! That puts it ahead of my Ryzen tower that is always roaring in takeoff mode. I have already shoved the PC into a corner and put the CG in its place while I give it a run.

I might even keep it for real use.
Even given all that, I have no real use for my cheese grater. Even that is too noisy compared to the two iMacs I now use pretty much exclusively. I have an 11" Asus Win10 laptop which I use encrypted for business, and a similar spare as backup. All else is now Apple. But I like the machinery. Although currently using it, I do not like MacOS much at all.
It takes forever to install, the downloads are immense by any standards, and its usability is not in the slightest superior to any other OS. The size of the downloads alone could be used to define the word 'bloat'. It is nearly FOUR TIMES the size of Windows 10 and more than 3 times Windows 11. And for no obviously discernible reason...

But I do like the hardware, I really do!
 

saudor

macrumors 68000
Jul 18, 2011
1,507
2,082
And it is QUIET! That puts it ahead of my Ryzen tower that is always roaring in takeoff mode. I have already shoved the PC into a corner and put the CG in its place while I give it a run.
Probably needs better fans/airflow or tweaking of the fan curves. Modern PC cases are so good at pushing heat out quickly as it finally moved to airflow-focused cases
 

romanof

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2020
297
337
Texas
Even given all that, I have no real use for my cheese grater. Even that is too noisy compared to the two iMacs I now use pretty much exclusively. I have an 11" Asus Win10 laptop which I use encrypted for business, and a similar spare as backup. All else is now Apple. But I like the machinery. Although currently using it, I do not like MacOS much at all.
It takes forever to install, the downloads are immense by any standards, and its usability is not in the slightest superior to any other OS. The size of the downloads alone could be used to define the word 'bloat'. It is nearly FOUR TIMES the size of Windows 10 and more than 3 times Windows 11. And for no obviously discernible reason...

But I do like the hardware, I really do!
I am just the opposite. I have despised windows since win95. That thing would have driven Carrie Nation to drink. Actually, when I was trained on Unix way way back in the day, the school was only a few days old when I realized that, other than Mainframe OS'es at the time, it was the only OS on the planet that could legitimately be called an operating system. CP/M, Dos, OS/2 and any version of Windows were just tinkertoy kludges in comparison. (Insert disk with serial number xxxxxxx into drive C... I can't continue until you do... Really?).

Of course, all commercial versions of Unix are now gone except for MacOS and it has been bent way out of original form over the years. I use Macs for mundane everyday stuff, but my daily driver for programming is Linux, although much of my Mac use is way down in the CLI where it still behaves (so far) like a Unix OS.

And like you, I like hardware and thus have way too much of it. Way, Way too much. I need 12 Raspberry PI's??? 4 M1's???

Oh, well. Nothing is too expensive for a hobby.
 

romanof

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2020
297
337
Texas
Probably needs better fans/airflow or tweaking of the fan curves. Modern PC cases are so good at pushing heat out quickly as it finally moved to airflow-focused cases
Are you suggesting that my top-of-the-line, premium, superbly built case needs tweaking? I probably spent 30 or 40 bucks on this thing. Even the case fan and processor fan are the best Amazon Basic stuff you can buy. The powersupply is top of the line, so it has to have a quality fan also, although it has no name on it so I don't know what brand it is.
 

FirDerrig33

macrumors member
Jan 12, 2017
55
14
California
I have also sen this but I think it also comes down to not only the software support but also the hardware that people also use that can't necessarily be used together. I am personally keeping my 5,1 for as long as it continues to work. It might not run anything past Mojave for me( No I'm not going to try OpenCore again on it) but it can run Windows and Linux just fine and it is still an amazing workhorse.

I have 4 HDDs in there(1 is an SSD), the regular superdrive, and combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray drive, the Sapphire 7950 and the GT120, and 40GB RAM. It's just a fun machine to fire up and use for gaming or a good storage option for older disk images.

I also have used it to repair quite a few Macs with basic troubleshooting and TDM. It's really nice.
 

ddhhddhh2

macrumors regular
Jun 2, 2021
213
333
Taipei
It's a given that when stuff gets older, its value usually takes a nosedive. But that doesn't mean old stuff loses its cool. If someone's still jamming with an old MP, they've got their reasons, and I think "meaning" and "value" are two different beasts.

For me, the thrill is in keeping my cMP 5,1 jazzed up and upgraded. My main squeeze for work right now is the M1 Max/64, It’s my sidekick at the office too, after my last partner in crime, the MBP i9/64. But once I’m home, it's usually benched while I hang with my cMP 5,1. With years of TLC and upgrades, it rarely throws a tantrum, and I can’t recall it ever bailing on me.

Right now, it's chilling on Monterey. It basically hustles through whatever I do on my M1 Max, just at a more leisurely pace, which ain’t a shocker. My usual jam includes rocking the main Adobe apps, doing the front and back-end development (angular/node/express/js/ts/php...), Docker, Android Studio, Xcode, and recently, flutter/dart (still schooling myself on that). The cMP rolls smooth with all these tasks, especially since I pimped it out with the RX6600 XT graphics card, giving it a sweet performance boost.

Back in the day, I dabbled in C4D and AE. But for these CPU-hungry gigs, clearly, the "modern" hardware’s got the mojo, no doubt about it. But I totally vibe that the cMP 5,1, seen through today's lens, still holds a mid-tier rank. It's far from being an “old and slow” buzzkill. When I upgraded the graphics, I put the official AE MFR test from Adobe through its paces, and it clocked in at about 10-11 minutes.

Comparing notes, the 2023 top-dog WinPC workstations, no matter the number of graphics cards, can knock it out in about 2-3 minutes, while the M1 Max takes a bit over 7 minutes(I always think AE are not good for mac). Your average to mid-range WinPCs are looking at 6-2x minutes. But I reckon, by 2023 standards, and eyeing the not-so-pricey workstations, they’re hitting a 5-8 minute performance mark. So, is the cMP really a snail? AE MFR is a CPU hog, sure, the GPU chips in a bit, but not much.

I’m not here to sing praises for the cMP’s worth. When it comes to CPU-heavy work, time is money, and you should always go for the newer, pricier options since they usually pack a punch. I just have a soft spot for it. From the time I got this Mac till now, it's been quite the ride. I’ve launched and folded a business, held onto a few Macs, some are just paperweights now, but this 2010 Mac is still kicking butt. It’s not like my collection of “real old stuff” like the G4/G5 or whatever, that I fire up, smile at the desktop, and then shut down cause there’s nada to do. This one’s different, and that’s something to cheer about.

I guess I'll keep tabs on the OCLP's Sonoma scene. If the stars align, I might hop on that train too. So yeah, its value's been on the down low, but using it still jazzes me up. Sorry, I kinda went off on a tangent there.

As for the Mac Pro 7,1, I also find it quite interesting to look into. I'm just not sure about its customizability, and how intrusive the T2 chip is. I'll need to observe more.
 
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TobiasT

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2019
73
70
All intel Mac Pros are loosing so much value.
Unknown.jpeg

It is an Apple silicon world now.
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
I dunno, on the completed listings they're going pretty cheap IMO.
 

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TobiasT

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2019
73
70
Please stop posting trash talk and back this up with real numbers.

They are NOT losing sooo much value. EBay search just now:

Still as expensive as they were before.

You expression "Still as expensive as they were before" is a joke. First of all, these are mere computers and depreciation on computers is high. Second. the apple silicon transition had a significan negative impact on intel Macs.

For example, the following example (base model with expensive HDD upgrade, from 256GB to 2TB) lost about half its value.

Screenshot 2023-10-07 at 17.02.01.png


And it is obvious that it is going to depreciate more and more everyday.

In light of the evidence are you going to be a gentlemen and apologise for the "trash talk"? :)
 
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