Why you'll be able to run native Windows on ARMacs

[gpat]

Just like the old 68k/PPC days, somebody will make accessories consisting of a x86 motherboard, CPU and basic hardware (RAM and some SSD), and you'll be able to use those to run windowed x86 operating systems on your ARMac.
I'm sure Intel/AMD/VMware/Parallels are already working on them.
These will take the form of small miniaturized USB-C peripherals like anything else these days.
You heard it here first, guys.

 

[q64ceo]

I am sure that MS will change their policies concerning Windows on Arm and allow non-OEM installs for Arm Macs.

But yeah, if that turns out not to be the case, someone will eventually come up with a solution.

 

[gpat]

I am sure that MS will change their policies concerning Windows on Arm and allow non-OEM installs for Arm Macs.

But yeah, if that turns out not to be the case, someone will eventually come up with a solution.

Windows on ARM will never be a complete solution.
If I need to use some legacy application, most certainly Windows on ARM won't work properly.
If my needs are met by Windows on ARM, there is a good chance I could do that task on macOS in the first place.

 

[Cristim74]

Windows on ARM will never be a complete solution.
If I need to use some legacy application, most certainly Windows on ARM won't work properly.
If my needs are met by Windows on ARM, there is a good chance I could do that task on macOS in the first place.

Exactly! The reason most of us are running Parallels or similars solutions is because we need to run legacy Windows apps that won't ever be recompiled for Windows for ARM.

 

[Nozuka]

Get rid of these legacy apps. It's very liberating.

 

[gpat]

Get rid of these legacy apps. It's very liberating.

Not as much as quitting my job, computing altogether, and going to live on a desert island for life. I might as well.

 

[Cristim74]

Believe me I wish I could, but I really can't. I'll give you a couple examples so you could understand why.

1. App for the digital signature USB-stick used to sign business documents.
2. Specialized apps for managing equipment I sell to customers.

I can't do without these, and unfortunately there's no alternatives to them.

 

[theluggage]

Just like the old 68k/PPC days, somebody will make accessories consisting of a x86 motherboard, CPU and basic hardware (RAM and some SSD), and you'll be able to use those to run windowed x86 operating systems on your ARMac.

The problem with those solutions is they always ended up costing more than a bog standard PC from your friendly local box shifter, while still having a laundry-list of compatibility problems. Their only attraction was that you didn't have to have a second big, sweaty beige box occupying half your desk, and they could share the same display and keyboard.

Today, that "standard PC from your friendly local box shifter" is quite a nice looking ultrabook that you can slip into the drawer when you're not using it and, together with your new ARM Macbook, still ways less than the brick you were carrying around 20 years ago.

Want to share the same display/keyboard? Remote desktop has come on leaps and bounds since then. Or, use a second display with Synergy to share the keyboard/mouse.

However, my guess for any Parallels 'run x86 Windows/Linux on ARM' product? A thin client running an optimised Remote Desktop-a-like connecting to a Windows instance somewhere out in the cloud. It's 2020 folks, and your home internet connection is designed for streaming 4k video. Hint: Parallels' main business is commercial software for ISPs selling virtual hosting.

 

[gpat]

Today, that "standard PC from your friendly local box shifter" is quite a nice looking ultrabook that you can slip into the drawer when you're not using it and, together with your new ARM Macbook, still ways less than the brick you were carrying around 20 years ago.

Might as well ditch the Macbook in that case, don't you agree?

Want to share the same display/keyboard? Remote desktop has come on leaps and bounds since then. Or, use a second display with Synergy to share the keyboard/mouse.

However, my guess for any Parallels 'run x86 Windows/Linux on ARM' product? A thin client running an optimised Remote Desktop-a-like connecting to a Windows instance somewhere out in the cloud. It's 2020 folks, and your home internet connection is designed for streaming 4k video. Hint: Parallels' main business is commercial software for ISPs selling virtual hosting.

That sounds like a good solution for most, but sadly I have to hook up specific USB peripherals to be used locally (biomedical area). So anything remote is a no-go for me.
As for the cost, it should be possible to have a Ryzen 3 / Intel Core i3 + 8GB RAM + Windows license for $199. Storage is not even needed, it could use a disk image on the Mac for booting.

 

[theluggage]

Might as well ditch the Macbook in that case, don't you agree?

Yes. .

...but that's mainly because of usurious RAM and SSD prices, pointless touch bars, USB-C Dongle Hell (tm) and thermal throttling on the MBP, limp Intel iGPUs on the mini, expensive display that dies with the computer on the iMac, no affordable mini-tower option, Catalina/T2 bugs and a huge slab of trepidation about the "major UI changes" in Big Sur...

ARM closes some doors and opens others - but some of those doors were closing anyway. The last 'bugs' I found testing software on Parallels turned out to be parallels bugs, testing on phones and tablets is now far more important than testing on Windows, web/linux development is moving to containers which can be running anywhere...

I switched to Mac mainly because it was Unix with a decent GUI and native MS Office/Adobe CS. That hasn't changed (although I've mostly washed my hands of Adobe). However, Windows now has a Linux subsystem and VS Code has really good remote development features...

If nothing changes, I'll be switching to Windows/Linux when my iMac reaches the end of it's useful life simply because Apple won't sell me the form factor I want for a sensible price. However, if the ARM switch means Mac Minis with premium iGPUs or passively cooled MacBook Airs with the performance of a current MBP then that could prompt a re-think.

 

[theluggage]

but sadly I have to hook up specific USB peripherals to be used locally (biomedical area). So anything remote is a no-go for me.

Hmm. Parallels/VMWare already shares USB devices between Mac and the virtual machine. I wonder if there's any just cause or impediment why that couldn't be made to work across a network...

...which could be exactly the sort of thing that a Mac virtualisation vendor could solve to encourage people to subscribe to their service rather than just use Remote Desktop (or buy a PC).

Remember - this is not a problem that needs to be solved tomorrow.

 

[TheKDub]

Just like the old 68k/PPC days, somebody will make accessories consisting of a x86 motherboard, CPU and basic hardware (RAM and some SSD), and you'll be able to use those to run windowed x86 operating systems on your ARMac.
I'm sure Intel/AMD/VMware/Parallels are already working on them.
These will take the form of small miniaturized USB-C peripherals like anything else these days.
You heard it here first, guys.

That just sounds like taking a current Windows desktop and connecting it via USB-C to an ARM Mac... I wouldn't really call that integration but maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

EDIT: Ah, you're just saying to miniaturize the current windows desktop into a very small form factor. Yeah, definitely possible, but I still wouldn't call that integration, since in such a form - you can still run windows without Mac if you simply plug this "mini windows desktop" into any monitor. No need for it to go through a Mac.

 

[maflynn]

I'm sure Intel/AMD/VMware/Parallels are already working on them.

Intel and AMD has no say or ability to allow windows to run on a completely different platform. In fact, why would they want to do that? I mean what business interest or benefit to AMD does windows running on Apple's CPU?

As for Vmware and Parallels. Yes, Parallels has already stated they are working with Apple to produce a version of parallels that runs on ARM. Their virtualization product. If you want to run windows on ARM a virtualization app isn't going to help you. You need an emulator, and does Parallels have the talent pool and knowledge set of x86 cpus to produce a fully functioning x86 emulator? I kind of doubt it. What is more likely is they'll have an Parallels ready for ARM so you can run native operating system virtually, you know ARM based Linux.

Microsoft does have an ARM version of windows, to my knowledge its for their own Surface products, and to date (AFAIK) its not for sale, so you just can't sell. I think MS will need to customize this version to allow it to work on Apple's AX processors AND make it available for sale. I don't think they'll be doing that.

tl;dr
Intel and AMD make CPUs they will not make windows work on ARM
Parallels and Vmware make virtualization software not emulators, they probably are not going to create an emulator
MS can but probably won't.
Bottom line, if you want windows, buy a PC.

 

[Aries79]

Intel and AMD has no say or ability to allow windows to run on a completely different platform. In fact, why would they want to do that? I mean what business interest or benefit to AMD does windows running on Apple's CPU?

As for Vmware and Parallels. Yes, Parallels has already stated they are working with Apple to produce a version of parallels that runs on ARM. Their virtualization product. If you want to run windows on ARM a virtualization app isn't going to help you. You need an emulator, and does Parallels have the talent pool and knowledge set of x86 cpus to produce a fully functioning x86 emulator? I kind of doubt it. What is more likely is they'll have an Parallels ready for ARM so you can run native operating system virtually, you know ARM based Linux.

Microsoft does have an ARM version of windows, to my knowledge its for their own Surface products, and to date (AFAIK) its not for sale, so you just can't sell. I think MS will need to customize this version to allow it to work on Apple's AX processors AND make it available for sale. I don't think they'll be doing that.

tl;dr
Intel and AMD make CPUs they will not make windows work on ARM
Parallels and Vmware make virtualization software not emulators, they probably are not going to create an emulator
MS can but probably won't.
Bottom line, if you want windows, buy a PC.

I wouldn't be so harsh: we had VirtualPC back in the days to run x86 on PowerPc, we'll have something similar again. Qemu is already able to run x86 Windows 10 on Arm

 

[Bug-Creator]

Just like the old 68k/PPC days, somebody will make accessories consisting of a x86 motherboard, CPU and basic hardware (RAM and some SSD),

Back in the day that might have made sense, cos even basic like a small HD, basic GFX or a keyboard costed real money making it sensible to share them between 2 systems.

There was also no really viable networking for homeusers that worked across systems.

Today: Just buy a MiniITX/NUC PC, tug it somewhere and VNC into it.

-> Next

 

[maflynn]

I wouldn't be so harsh: we had VirtualPC back in the days to run x86 on PowerPc, we'll have something similar again. Qemu is already able to run x86 Windows 10 on Arm

We did have it, and if you were using it as I was, it was horribly slow Yes we may eventually have it, but I don't think we'll see anything in the short term and imo, it may very not be viable for most people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[UBS28]

Get rid of these legacy apps. It's very liberating.

Some of those legacy apps are the best in the business.

 

[[AUT] Thomas]

Just like the old 68k/PPC days, somebody will make accessories consisting of a x86 motherboard, CPU and basic hardware (RAM and some SSD), and you'll be able to use those to run windowed x86 operating systems on your ARMac.
I'm sure Intel/AMD/VMware/Parallels are already working on them.
These will take the form of small miniaturized USB-C peripherals like anything else these days.
You heard it here first, guys.

If it's running on a separate PC like you literally say yourself it's actually not running on your Mac, in fact it's just a glorified remote desktop. That was possible since, well long before intel macs...
These days, if you want to cut the cost, just buy an HDMI stick PC or something like that.

Spoiler: Like this...

Of course it depends on your needs, but a basic one costs approx 100 bucks... even less than a Parallels license on the long term...

All demanding, paid apps will be ported to ARM anyway within the next few years (when the ARM devices increase market share and raw power) due to pressure of the market and those old tools that barely require any CPU or memory because they date back to Windows XP can as well be run in a VM even if that wastes 90% of the CPU power for translation.

Those who run industrial apps or apps requiring hardware access should use a dedicated machine anyway (and said RDP/VNC solution) because stable drivers. And I think that might also be your (@gpat) goto option until software has been recompiled. I could imagine biomedical devices and software will have to pass a lot of testing until things are production released, so the ARM adoption might rather slow and not happening in that decade...

 

[adamw]

The world would be so much simpler if we could leave those legacy Windows apps behind, and go totally native ARM on Mac...

 

[duffyanneal]

We did have it, and if you were using it as I was, it was horribly slow Yes we may eventually have it, but I don't think we'll see anything in the short term and imo, it may very not be viable for most people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Haha, you just reminded me of something. Running the Windows version of Office via VirtualPC was faster than running the native Mac version of Office. The good old days. Lol. I just had a flashback of demoing VirtualPC to someone at Sears. Back when I used to volunteer to demo Mac stuff for some cool Apple swag.

 

[johngwheeler]

Might as well ditch the Macbook in that case, don't you agree?



That sounds like a good solution for most, but sadly I have to hook up specific USB peripherals to be used locally (biomedical area). So anything remote is a no-go for me.
As for the cost, it should be possible to have a Ryzen 3 / Intel Core i3 + 8GB RAM + Windows license for $199. Storage is not even needed, it could use a disk image on the Mac for booting.

You can virtualize USB ports so that your local USB devices "plug in" to the cloud server. Have a look at https://www.eltima.com/access-usb-in-the-cloud-technology/