Wishful Thinking: WWDC Debuts New Apple Mid Market Display

[henrymyf]

If this comes to pass, I'd buy 2 of them - maybe 3.

Agree. This is really irresistible.

 

[jukkhop]

If this comes out, I believe many are going to stock up. And they should.

 

[- rob -]

It’s that time again, topping this thread.

This time, I don’t think this is going to happen. But I still think it aught to.

New reasons since I started this thread:

1. Mac Mini M1 / M2 performance makes sales climb and call attention to missing mApple TB display.
2. Pandemic / remote work shines new light in Apple’s lack of FaceTime cameras in any external display.
   

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Not going to happen. Over 80% of Macs sold are notebook models. It's been like that for over a decade.

Of the desktop Macs, the most popular model is the entry-level iMac. The Mac mini is really niche and a lot of them are headless (render farms, colos, SOHO servers, etc.).

Apple could easily release a standalone monitor whenever they want. The fact of the matter is they haven't. That doesn't mean they can't. It just means that the likelihood of them doing so is super small.

Remember that monitors are a low-margin peripheral unless it's something super-premium like the Pro Display XDR which isn't matched to the Mac mini market. Apple has plenty of actual monitor sales data dating back to the pre-Macintosh era. They have sold Apple-branded monitors all the back to the Apple II.

I'm pretty sure CEO Tim, COO Jeff and CFO Luca know how much money they are leaving on the table by not being in the mainstream monitor business today.

It's important to note that built-in webcams in external monitors have extremely limited aiming adjustments (if at all). It's no surprise that the vast majority of monitors aimed at the Windows PC marketplace do not have built-in cameras even if a 720p camera is a $3 part. Even the monitor manufacturers don't want this.

 

[UMHurricanes34]

Not going to happen. Over 80% of Macs sold are notebook models. It's been like that for over a decade.

Of the desktop Macs, the most popular model is the entry-level iMac. The Mac mini is really niche and a lot of them are headless (render farms, colos, SOHO servers, etc.).

Apple could easily release a standalone monitor whenever they want. The fact of the matter is they haven't. That doesn't mean they can't. It just means that the likelihood of them doing so is super small.

Remember that monitors are a low-margin peripheral unless it's something super-premium like the Pro Display XDR which isn't matched to the Mac mini market. Apple has plenty of actual monitor sales data dating back to the pre-Macintosh era. They have sold Apple-branded monitors all the back to the Apple II.

I'm pretty sure CEO Tim, COO Jeff and CFO Luca know how much money they are leaving on the table by not being in the mainstream monitor business today.

It's important to note that built-in webcams in external monitors have extremely limited aiming adjustments (if at all). It's no surprise that the vast majority of monitors aimed at the Windows PC marketplace do not have built-in cameras even if a 720p camera is a $3 part. Even the monitor manufacturers don't want this.

The fact that 80% of Macs sold are now notebooks is more reason than ever why they need to offer a replacement for the Thunderbolt Display. It's a massive gap in their lineup and something I know "previous Apple" (I won't evoke his name) would have addressed/never let lapse. Go back to the 2008 MacBook Pro/LED Display introduction and see how much clearer Apple's thinking was with regards to the needs of their portable users. This product needs to exist. It's a critical piece of the ecosystem that no one else is stepping in to address.

You're exactly right that this decision was based on the P&L statements. That is the wrong way of thinking about it. What is 'Good for Apple' is not always 'Good for the Customer'. But what is 'Good for the Customer' is always 'Good for Apple'.

I don't care about viewing angles, I care about having everything built-in, simple, clean, and beautiful. I don't want a wart sticking on top of my monitor, and I don't want another peripheral I have to purchase, plug in, or configure. I want a webcam, speakers, and a high quality display that I can dock my Macbook Pro to with one cable. The old "it just works" product. These are the reasons so many flocked to Apple's ecosystem in the first place. Apple needs to bring that attitude back.

 

[theSeb]

My trusty old 24" ACD is starting to go blurry along the edges, so a new ACD that does not cost $5000 would be an a very tempting proposition. I can raise my hopes only to have them dashed once again on the 20th I guess.

 

[bluespark]

The fact that 80% of Macs sold are now notebooks is more reason than ever why they need to offer a replacement for the Thunderbolt Display. It's a massive gap in their lineup and something I know "previous Apple" (I won't evoke his name) would have addressed/never let lapse. Go back to the 2008 MacBook Pro/LED Display introduction and see how much clearer Apple's thinking was with regards to the needs of their portable users. This product needs to exist. It's a critical piece of the ecosystem that no one else is stepping in to address.

You're exactly right that this decision was based on the P&L statements. That is the wrong way of thinking about it. What is 'Good for Apple' is not always 'Good for the Customer'. But what is 'Good for the Customer' is always 'Good for Apple'.

I don't care about viewing angles, I care about having everything built-in, simple, clean, and beautiful. I don't want a wart sticking on top of my monitor, and I don't want another peripheral I have to purchase, plug in, or configure. I want a webcam, speakers, and a high quality display that I can dock my Macbook Pro to with one cable. The old "it just works" product. These are the reasons so many flocked to Apple's ecosystem in the first place. Apple needs to bring that attitude back.

Strongly agree. Apple needs to realize that there are some products that may not be profitable in themselves, but they greatly enhance Apple's other products. Great Apple displays would do exactly that.

 

[FranzMarc]

The fact that 80% of Macs sold are now notebooks is more reason than ever why they need to offer a replacement for the Thunderbolt Display. It's a massive gap in their lineup and something I know "previous Apple" (I won't evoke his name) would have addressed/never let lapse. Go back to the 2008 MacBook Pro/LED Display introduction and see how much clearer Apple's thinking was with regards to the needs of their portable users. This product needs to exist. It's a critical piece of the ecosystem that no one else is stepping in to address.

You're exactly right that this decision was based on the P&L statements. That is the wrong way of thinking about it. What is 'Good for Apple' is not always 'Good for the Customer'. But what is 'Good for the Customer' is always 'Good for Apple'.

I don't care about viewing angles, I care about having everything built-in, simple, clean, and beautiful. I don't want a wart sticking on top of my monitor, and I don't want another peripheral I have to purchase, plug in, or configure. I want a webcam, speakers, and a high quality display that I can dock my Macbook Pro to with one cable. The old "it just works" product. These are the reasons so many flocked to Apple's ecosystem in the first place. Apple needs to bring that attitude back.

Absolutely. I am somewhat worried that they'd rather sell you an iMac on top of your Macbook, but I'm still so hoping for a nice Apple display. Probably gonna cost as much as the small 24'' iMac though.

 

[SomeMacGuy]

Absolutely. I am somewhat worried that they'd rather sell you an iMac on top of your Macbook, but I'm still so hoping for a nice Apple display. Probably gonna cost as much as the small 24'' iMac though.

That's fine. I'd buy it without a second thought. I can't deal with plastic junk on my desk. Just had my Thunderbolt display 3-in-1 cable replaced so I could keep using it and it's not going anywhere until there's a suitable replacement. If the Pro Display XDR was just a little cheaper I would have bought it. It's just hard to justify.

 

[UMHurricanes34]

With a little over 24 hours to go…how’s everybody feeling?

 

[patrick.a]

I really don't think they'll show a new display tomorrow even though it would make a great set with the new MacBooks or a more powerful Mac Mini. The situation is even worse than a year ago now that the LG 5k is not sold anymore here. So for the headless Macs the only option left is the Pro XDR if you want a Retina screen, right?

 

[satchmo]

I really don't think they'll show a new display tomorrow even though it would make a great set with the new MacBooks or a more powerful Mac Mini. The situation is even worse than a year ago now that the LG 5k is not sold anymore here. So for the headless Macs the only option left is the Pro XDR if you want a Retina screen, right?

Pretty much. I’m not sure why there aren’t other monitor manufacturers that have a high pixel per inch count.
Seriously, no one has anything near 219 ppi other than perhaps a Dell 8K display.

That leaves as you said the XDR, or go with the new iMac 24”. You would think there’s a chance of a new display tomorrow. Other than an upgraded M1X Mac mini, MacBook Pros are the ideal product to launch it with.

 

[Fishrrman]

Apple displays were usually nice when they were offered (I still have an AppleColor 13" in its original box up in the attic with my old IIci).
But... I doubt there EVER was "enough percentage" in it for them (profit).

And that's why we're probably never going to see a "consumer level" Apple-made display again.

 

[4sallypat]

My trusty old 24" ACD is starting to go blurry along the edges, so a new ACD that does not cost $5000 would be an a very tempting proposition. I can raise my hopes only to have them dashed once again on the 20th I guess.

Ditto - my 24" ACD is still chugging along even after 11 years - still working as a second display on my newest acquisition: M1 iMac 24".

I love how I can switch from 720 to 1080 FaceTime cameras between the two displays on Zoom - sometimes when I am looking sharp, I'll use the M1 iMac camera for it's photo quality image but most other times, I use the grainy ACD camera because it's not so detailed...

Notice how thick & aged the black bezels are on the ACD compared to the "softer" grey M1 iMac bezels.

 

[xraydoc]

As much as I want a new version of the Apple Thunderbolt display (other than the $6000 XDR) and would buy one in a hot second, I'm 95% certain it'll never happen.

 

[UMHurricanes34]

Well…we’re still waiting. Was really hoping we might get a surprise at the MBP event ala 2008, but alas. The good news is that the more Apple hits it’s stride releasing (good) new Macs, the more obvious this gap and pain point in the lineup becomes. But good god, what’s taking them so long?

 

[- rob -]

Well…we’re still waiting. Was really hoping we might get a surprise at the MBP event ala 2008, but alas. The good news is that the more Apple hits it’s stride releasing (good) new Macs, the more obvious this gap and pain point in the lineup becomes. But good god, what’s taking them so long?

The sentiment is real. Gruber also had hopes for a mid-market display detailed in his last minute predictions post:

New standalone sanely-priced Apple display? Again, nothing from the rumor mill, but I’d love to see it. People want standalone displays for their MacBooks and Mac Minis.

People don’t want to spend $5,000 on a Pro Display XDR. Third-party display makers clearly are not capable of or willing to serve the Mac market. So why not get back in the prosumer display game with a $1,500 iMac-quality standalone display?

It does seem strange, but Apple has regularly allowed bigger product quality / mix problems while they take their time to get it just right on their end.

Releases happen because Apple is ready and think the timing is good. Not because customers think so.

Could be a mix of factors, but the most obvious to me is no new Mac Mini.

Offering a Mac Mini alongside these MacBook Pro’s with a new midmarket display would have created a compelling alternative and taken attention and excitement away from the MBPs.

I think the Mini and a new mid-market display would be more compelling to developers, since it isn’t as turnkey as laptops. Its not like you have to assemble anything but selecting and hooking up peripherals isn’t for everyone as imac proves.

So a WWDC announcement might make more sense.

Finally, from preliminary GB scores, the M1 Max doesn’t beat the Blackmagic Pro eGPU. So a new mini with that would still not beat an old Intel Mac mini with the BM Pro on compute.

I can see a display being held up for a new mini announce, and I don’t expect one now until a M2 at WWDC 2022.

 

[DesertNomad]

I could not wait any longer and ordered a second XDR Display. Apple is likely selling more of these than they expected since there is simply no other good Retina option in the 27"+ market.

 

[UMHurricanes34]

I could not wait any longer and ordered a second XDR Display. Apple is likely selling more of these than they expected since there is simply no other good Retina option in the 27"+ market.

Congrats. I’ve been on the brink more than once, but the pricing on the XDR is a step too far. It’s a gorgeous display but I’d prefer something with a built-in webcam and speakers. So much of my business life is on Zoom and the XDR was designed in a pre-covid world for a different use case. I find myself wanting to buy one every other day yet I just can’t in good conscience purchase one now knowing there has to be another Apple display on the horizon. Seeing the progress Apple has made with mini LED in more recent products also makes me want to hold strong.

XDR still stands out as a strange blunder by Apple for being announced as $5K + $1K for the stand. That’s selling psychology old Apple would never mixup. If they had announced as $6K -$1K for the VESA version, you’re playing a different psychological game. Odd.

Thunderbolt Display, please don’t fail me now!

 

[- rob -]

I’d prefer something with a built-in webcam and speakers.

have you considered an arm mounted webcam, to get perspective from above and to the side of any monitor?

IIRC Apple collaborated with Logitech on an XDR Pro Display webcam, (it uses three hidden magnets in the top of the display) but then you only get the head-on direct shot, which is okay but not necessarily ideal all the time.

 

[UMHurricanes34]

have you considered an arm mounted webcam, to get perspective from above and to the side of any monitor?

IIRC Apple collaborated with Logitech on an XDR Pro Display webcam, (it uses three hidden magnets in the top of the display) but then you only get the head-on direct shot, which is okay but not necessarily ideal all the time.

As a Thunderbolt Display user I really prefer the simplicity of the built in solution without any additional warts or USB cables

 

[- rob -]

Hey-o, only took 1 year, 9 months, 22 days but we got that mid-market display!

I updated my prediction on specs and pricing a number of times so I thought I'd repost the last one (following newest iMac Display release):

PRESS RELEASE
October 31st, 2020
Apple Unveils New 27-inch 5k Retina Cinema Display

Features

• 27 inch IPS display
• 5120 x 2880 @ 60Hz
• Built in HD video camera, microphone and speakers
• One Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C), three USB-C
• True Tone
• standard stand
• Power cord (2m), Apple Thunderbolt 3 Pro cable (2m)
• Polishing Cloth

Standard Glass - $1299
Nano-texture Glass Version- $1799

Sold Separately

• Pro Display Stand (same as XDR) ($699 upgrade)
• Vesa Mount Adapter ($199)
• Apple Care 3-year ($250)

I got much of this right! Here's some compare / contrast from my long running speculation on this.

- Estimated pricing was just a bit too low! Actual pricing is Standard Glass $1599 (+300), Nano-texture $1899 (+100)
- 5k, 60Hz, no downstream TB3 (daisychaining) 3 usb-c. On the money
- Two types of "standard" stands, included is tilt-adjust, $100 more for tilt and height. (This is essentially the Pro stand)
- Vesa mount adapter is free alternative. (I'm a bit surprised it doesn't have the pro stand mount)
- Power cord is permanently attached, TB3 cable is only 1m (-1)
- Apple care is cheaper than I estimated $149 (-100) Maybe they are expecting very high reliability on this monitor.
- No free polishing cloth. ?

 

[4sallypat]

Hey-o, only took 1 year, 9 months, 22 days but we got that mid-market display!

I updated my prediction on specs and pricing a number of times so I thought I'd repost the last one (following newest iMac Display release):


I got much of this right! Here's some compare / contrast from my long running speculation on this.

- Estimated pricing was just a bit too low! Actual pricing is Standard Glass $1599 (+300), Nano-texture $1899 (+100)
- 5k, 60Hz, no downstream TB3 (daisychaining) 3 usb-c. On the money
- Two types of "standard" stands, included is tilt-adjust, $100 more for tilt and height. (This is essentially the Pro stand)
- Vesa mount adapter is free alternative. (I'm a bit surprised it doesn't have the pro stand mount)
- Power cord is permanently attached, TB3 cable is only 1m (-1)
- Apple care is cheaper than I estimated $149 (-100) Maybe they are expecting very high reliability on this monitor.
- No free polishing cloth. ?

Yup, you got it right!

I am ordering one base unit thru Education store for $1499.

Will go great with my M1 Mini!

 

[UMHurricanes34]

Great work, team. It was a displeasure weathering this storm with you all. Glad we had each other. I placed my order for the standard glass adjustable stand Studio display immediately after the event ended. All hail the Thunderbolt Display, thy watch has ended.

 

[- rob -]

Great work, team. It was a displeasure weathering this storm with you all. Glad we had each other. I placed my order for the standard glass adjustable stand Studio display immediately after the event ended. All hail the Thunderbolt Display, thy watch has ended.

A fair amount of claim chowder in here, some said it would never happen. Others said they would buy three of these.

Curious how @DesertNomad is feeling--I have considered a second XDR also but stuck with the one. If the studio had been available two years ago, I would have picked it up. Maybe picking up the Studio as a second to the XDR Pro is a decent option for people. (Though the XDR is still boss)