Apple Could Pay 'Total Political Crap' $14 Billion Tax Bill to EU After All

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Always remember: The EU gave us USB-C finally

And Apple gave us a Premium phone with the 20+ year old USB 2.0 standard, instead of the much faster, 10+ year old USB 3.0 standard

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Hmm how is that democratic?

Let me try to show...

View attachment 2309733

And then look at all the EU countries with "Full democracy"...

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks for that. Really interesting charts in that index!

 

[hagar]

All Taxation is Theft

And who is going to pay for the roads, public transport, schools, hospitals, …
You haven’t thought this through have you?

 

[cicalinarrot]

I’m sorry but the EU is not going to take tax lessons from a country that would literally rather let people die than pay more taxes.

 

[weckart]

Could you image going to court for something, getting the verdict of "Not guilty", then someone else comes along later and says, "actually it looks like we might of made some mistakes during the trail, and we would like to take you back to trial". I'd be terrified to live if the EU if they don't have any kind of protections against Double Jeopardy.

England and Wales did away with double jeopardy protection in 2003. The only ones quaking are criminals who relied on witness intimidation and technicalities to avoid conviction. There was the usual hoo-ha when it happened and since then crickets.

One could also say that Apple had saved you (in the EU) 50 euros off each iPhone. Now the EU wants its money back! So, you pay more "tax" cause you live in the EU.

This sounds like a circular argument. That €50 saved off a phone will be replaced with €50 more in tax or cuts in services to make up for the tax shortfall. Either way, the customer pays. Only Apple is benefiting. Apple can only jack up the retail price until it prices itself out of the market. With falling sales already, it looks to have reached that limit and will need to start looking at its profit margins instead.

 

[H2SO4]

I will. And as a citizen of an EU member state, I will also remember this when the USA, China, India ... are already using the successor, because in the EU we will still be using the then obsolete USB-C.
Laws are slower than innovation.

Cross that bridge when we come to it shall we?

 

[RokinAmerica]

Thanks to USB-C, I now need to bring 2 chargers to the office instead of 1 previously.
1. USB-C charger for my iPhone 15 Pro Max
2. Lightning charger for my AirPods.

Thanks EU for needing 2 different charges now?

The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again.

The ones in our house predate us, but are over 60. My grandparents' house had push button ones that were 80-90. However, having written that, we're going to have replace our bedroom light switch because it recently broke!

siddavis said:

​

“Kind of like when US federal tax cuts are implemented and tax revenue actually increases. The feels are all "the sky is falling" and never care to look at the effect. Marxism is alive and well because emotions rule the day.”​

Happened once under JFK in a time of economic growth. The revenues went up due to the growth, not because of the cuts.

Ever since then, the tax cut approach has failed spectacularly. Large tax cuts under Reagan, Bush, and Trump (that mostly went to the well off and corporations) have led to massive declines in government revenue and huge run ups in the federal deficit and national debt.

Economists — and real world results — have systematically and repeatedly shown that the Laffer Curve is a fiction — cut taxes and you cut government revenue. Trickle down economics simply doesn't work.

If Marxism is alive and well, something I’d dispute, it is not because “emotions rule the day”, but because the power elite and capitalism still run amok, shaping policy in the interests of the powerful and well off, immiserating people, and, globally, generating massive inequality, poverty, poor health, widespread underemployment and unemployment, and even autocracy. They are also fueling worsening global warming and the climate emergency, née climate cataclysm.



💯 % correct! ✅

Why does everyone thing less government spending is bad? Don't taxpayers support enough government employees?

When you tax your populace into near poverty, you become the hero when you save them. And get re-elected. I would rather have less government/less taxation and decide where my hard-earned money goes. Not some career politician. Career politicians are parasites.

 

[ric22]

I think the issue the EU has is really with Ireland rather than Apple, in that the Irish government went too far in offering an effective subsidy to entice Apple to its shores that was in breach of the EU state aid rules that aim (amongst other things) to stop EU member states competing with one another to bribe companies to base themselves there.

From the linked article it was alleged Ireland offered Apple a deal of 2% tax instead of its normal 12.5% tax.

From Wikipedia that deal would be State Aid - and so potentially illegal - if it met the following criteria:

1. "the use of state resources"
2. "the measure must confer an advantage to a certain undertaking"
3. "the advantage must be selective"
4. "the measure must distort competition"
5. "affect trade between member states".

At a high level if that kind of special tax discount was given it seems pretty clear that Ireland is in the wrong. Perhaps harsh though for Apple to be caught in the crossfire, but from the EU's perspective it was the recipient of the state aid and must now disgorge it.

Yep. EU laws were massively flawed and countries shouldn't have been allowed to discount tax rates to entice big corporations to their shores, to the detriment of the entire economic bloc. An idiotic mess that isn't Apple's fault, but the EU's. Even Ireland was abiding by the law- the law was simply an ass.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

All Taxation is Theft

Not all taxation, though I'd argue that the income tax and estate tax are extremely unjust.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Hmm how is that democratic?

Let me try to show...

View attachment 2309733

And then look at all the EU countries with "Full democracy"...

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Full democracy"

 

[cocky jeremy]

Was just trying to get clarification on what you meant... and if you mean they should leave a market because they have to much money... made zero sense also... and since they have to much money... you could always stop partaking in the purchasing of their products because as you stated, they have to much money. But ok.

I mean they can afford to not make money there, rather than deal with their BS.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

Cross that bridge when we come to it shall we?

When has the government ever done something on time? Just sayin'

 

[gregmancuso]

and high speed sync and raw video to external disk ...

USB-C did not bring higher speed. The original iPad Pro lightning connector supported USB 3 speeds. Apple just chose to not support higher speeds on phone until recently.

 

[siddavis]

Except your “myth” is a strawman. No one is arguing that revenue decreased because of the tax cuts. The actual argument is that there is less revenue than there would have been without the tax cuts.

And then you responded to my nonpartisan analysis with a partisan one. Again, appealing to emotion rather than reason. Tax revenues are up because of increased spending, not tax cuts.

Despite your claim, you can’t compare to actual numbers unless you have access to an alternate reality without the cuts.

"No one is arguing that revenue decreased because of the tax cuts." Seriously?! YOU are arguing that!! Here you are saying that exactly:

Again, that's an appeal to emotion that ignores historical results. Tax cuts didn't cause an increase in tax revenue. They didn't under Bush. They didn't under Trump. They did cause a reduction in tax revenue. (Trump tax cuts are estimated to have added $1-2 trillion to the national debt.)

Click on your link - it is NOT anything that actually occurred. It is a guesstimate of what COULD happen if the tax cuts were implemented. It argues directly that the tax cuts would decrease revenue by around $1.5T. So yes, you and your "nonpartisan analysis" argue that revenue decreased because of the tax cuts.

JCX-67-17

www.jct.gov

My citations are based on what actually happened from 2017-2022 plus the revised projection by the same groups (CBO and JCT) showing increased revenue. Sorry I linked to a partisan site, but they cite the same CBO that your reference uses. Them's the facts. I use reality, you use opinion and prediction. Please stop.

 

[gaximus]

England and Wales did away with double jeopardy protection in 2003. The only ones quaking are criminals who relied on witness intimidation and technicalities to avoid conviction. There was the usual hoo-ha when it happened and since then crickets.


This sounds like a circular argument. That €50 saved off a phone will be replaced with €50 more in tax or cuts in services to make up for the tax shortfall. Either way, the customer pays. Only Apple is benefiting. Apple can only jack up the retail price until it prices itself out of the market. With falling sales already, it looks to have reached that limit and will need to start looking at its profit margins instead.

Apple will keep raising prices as long as their competitors keep raising theirs to match. The limit will never be reached, prices will just increase at a slower rate.

 

[BaldiMac]

"No one is arguing that revenue decreased because of the tax cuts." Seriously?! YOU are arguing that!! Here you are saying that exactly:


Click on your link - it is NOT anything that actually occurred. It is a guesstimate of what COULD happen if the tax cuts were implemented. It argues directly that the tax cuts would decrease revenue by around $1.5T. So yes, you and your "nonpartisan analysis" argue that revenue decreased because of the tax cuts.

JCX-67-17

www.jct.gov

Sigh. Can you really not tell the difference between (A) a year to year reduction in total revenue and (B) a reduction in revenue compared to what you would have received without the tax cuts?

Situation A: A year to year reduction in total banana production.
2020: 90 bananas produced.
2021: 100 bananas produced.
2022: 110 bananas produced.
2023: 105 bananas produced. <-- This is a reduction in total banana production.

Situation B: A reduction in banana production compared to what you would have received without the production cuts.
2020: 90 bananas produced.
2021: 100 banana produced.
2022: 110 bananas produced.
2023 (expected): 120 bananas produced
2023 (actual after 5 banana production cut) 115 bananas produced. <-- This is a reduction in banana production compared to what you would have received without the production cuts.

In scenario B, you're arguing that we should consider the production cut to have caused more bananas to be produced. That's ridiculous.

My citations are based on what actually happened from 2017-2022 plus the revised projection by the same groups (CBO and JCT) showing increasedrevenue. Sorry I linked to a partisan site, but they cite the same CBO that your reference uses. Them's the facts. I use reality, you use opinion and prediction. Please stop.

No, your partisan source takes credit for a revenue increase caused by tax increases and increased spending passed by the opposing party.

 

[weckart]

Apple will keep raising prices as long as their competitors keep raising theirs to match. The limit will never be reached, prices will just increase at a slower rate.

And sales will contract at a faster rate. Apple has to provide value for money otherwise prices would be much higher than they are now.

 

[bollman]

I have no idea what your point is here since you didn't comment. But it is a good reminder of the misleading numbers that the EU used to justify this action originally.

Misleading numbers? Did you even read their findings?
In short: In 2011, Apple recorded sales of $22 billion in EMEA region, but only €50 million where considered taxable in Ireland due to their agreed method, the rest went to a company not residing in ANY country, and therefore not taxed at all.
This method of tax avoidance has it's own name and wikipedia article:

Double Irish arrangement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[H2SO4]

When has the government ever done something on time? Just sayin'

Is that hyperbole or your real honest answer?

 

[H2SO4]

Apple, just leave. If there's a company on the planet that doesn't need their money, it's you.

Yes. They should leave. If they can’t play the game by the right rules they should expletive off.

 

[I7guy]

Yes. They should leave. If they can’t play the game by the right rules they should expletive off.

I agree apple, google and Facebook should leave the EU and let the EU become a technological island. Let the EU develop core tech so they can gatekeeper themselves, surveillance themselves and have back-doors galore.

 

[BaldiMac]

Misleading numbers? Did you even read their findings?
In short: In 2011, Apple recorded sales of $22 billion in EMEA region, but only €50 million where considered taxable in Ireland due to their agreed method, the rest went to a company not residing in ANY country, and therefore not taxed at all.
This method of tax avoidance has it's own name and wikipedia article:

Double Irish arrangement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You took the misleading numbers at face value. The stateless revenue was used to delay taxes on US revenue. Not to avoid EU taxes.

The EU numbers are misleading because they are based on the ridiculous assumption that all revenue generated in the EU is booked in the EU. Apple, in accordance with international tax law, believes that most of the money should be taxed in the U.S. where the value is generated. They use their "stateless" corporation to hold the money until it is repatriated. The deferred payments for U.S. taxes on these funds are included in their financial statements.

 

[H2SO4]

I agree apple, google and Facebook should leave the EU and let the EU become a technological island. Let the EU develop core tech so they can gatekeeper themselves, surveillance themselves and have back-doors galore.

Oh please.
They’re dominant here because they had the right package at the right time. If those thieving
multinationals left the EU would be just fine.
Get over it.

 

[I7guy]

Oh please.
They’re dominant here because they had the right package at the right time. If those thieving
multinationals left the EU would be just fine.
Get over it.

There’s nothing to get over. Let the Eu develop their own core smartphone, social media and search engine. Good luck.

 

[weckart]

There’s nothing to get over. Let the Eu develop their own core smartphone, social media and search engine. Good luck.

Let the non-EU world develop its efficient Intel alternative without ARM or ASML. Good luck, too.

Everyone can play the petulant child on the forums. Companies tend to count to ten rather than shooting from the hip.