Apple Offers to Open NFC Payment Technology to Third-Party Developers in Europe

[CharlesShaw]

We’re just going to go round in circles on this one for various reasons.

Haha. Sometimes I fantasize that Apple could survive acting more like Elon Musk and just stop selling in the EU (no soup for you). And it sounds like others fantasize that the EU will eventually force Apple to change over to Android OS, paying Google for the licensing, and make one universal phone for the masses. Only one model, or else it will be wasteful.

 

[lartola]

Well didn’t this happen once already in the U.S.? Some bank or company made a QR wallet and some banks chose to leave Apple Pay, and after a while they chose to comeback because it sucked more than Apple Pay?

So what I’m asking essentially is what is the current difference with the NFC API being open up? Doesn’t this essentially go back to your standard code of conduct: walk with you money?

I think you’re talking about the now defunct CurrentC. That wasn’t created by any banks, though, it was created just by a bunch of retailers/merchants. And one of the reasons it failed was precisely that it was QR based: that meant the merchants had to invest more to set up their systems to accept it and it was more cumbersome to use for the customers. NFC, on the other hand, comes as part of the package anyway because sooner or later the merchants have to upgrade their card readers, and all modern card readers now come with nfc, and the customers need to download their bank’s app anyway to monitor their bank account(s). Not to mention that mobile wallets using nfc are also built into the mobile OS’s (iOS, Android) or created by the mobile hardware manufacturers (Samsung, fitbit, garmin, huawei, etc).

 

[NagasakiGG]

Where do you shop? The only place I can’t use card is at some „Spätis“ and Döner places in Berlin and this is most likely for other „reasons“.

I like to buy groceries like bread, meat and stuff at local bakery/butcher. Also yes, Döner is also a huge problem paying with card

 

[AppliedMicro]

Germany is dumb. They should rather focus on more essential things, like accepting normal cards on more than 10% of the stores (besides big chains). I am often shopping in Germany as a Swiss and it's horrible how many stores you're either not allowed to pay with credit card (as Maestro is gone now, they have their own dumb sh*t called "Girocard") or at least 20€.

You must not have shopped in Germany for the last 5-10 years. Some German stores accept girocard only - but they're getting less and less. 10% Mastercard/VISA acceptance is a ridiculously underestimated number.

As a side note, the increase in Mastercard/VISA acceptance in Germany can be largely attributed to the EU - who with their PSD2 and interchange regulation made the acceptance costs of consumers card payments much lower.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So security is no longer a concern? I guess Apple should open it up to everyone then even outside the EU

The EU has already decided security is not relevant to the iPhone experience

Another small frog added to the simmering pot of government overreach. The EU absolutely will not stop, ever, until they’ve reduced iOS security to a pile of burning embers.

the EU does not care about security and good business solutions.

The EU has made card payments more technically secure - while "free" countries were still using magstripe and allowing online card payments without strong customer authentication.

Not really, they just make the card fraud the responsibility of the user. There are many examples of fraud schemes that revolve around chip and pin cards in the EU.

Quite the contrary. The EU has legally shifted responsibility for card fraud for "insecure" transactions to the issuer.
They have capped customer liability to certain amounts.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Walmart doesn’t accept Apple Pay. And I don’t shop there. Home Depot doesn’t accept apple pay and I shop there as little as possible. I dk t want to use a QR code or wallet app to pay. I want my card provider to allow Apple Pay as a payment method.

Well that’s awful, perhaps the U.S. should force everyone who uses contactless payment to accept Apple Pay, just like EU.

Perhaps that’s why Walmart failed in Europe.

I think you’re talking about the now defunct CurrentC. That wasn’t created by any banks, though, it was created just by a bunch of retailers/merchants. And one of the reasons it failed was precisely that it was QR based: that meant the merchants had to invest more to set up their systems to accept it and it was more cumbersome to use for the customers. NFC, on the other hand, comes as part of the package anyway because sooner or later the merchants have to upgrade their card readers, and all modern card readers now come with nfc, and the customers need to download their bank’s app anyway to monitor their bank account(s). Not to mention that mobile wallets using nfc are also built into the mobile OS’s (iOS, Android) or created by the mobile hardware manufacturers (Samsung, fitbit, garmin, huawei, etc).

Yea exactly that is what I’m thinking about! But I always find it funny considering a QR code payment app is very handy if implemented correctly. We have Swish in Sweden that is directly connected to our bank and phone number. And payment is confirmed with bankID. And you can also use it to send money to friends or online payment with immediate transaction.
Pay things online, pay bills and store purchases etc. and all banks support it

 

[I7guy]

Well that’s awful, perhaps the U.S. should force everyone who uses contactless payment to accept Apple Pay, just like EU.

Perhaps that’s why Walmart failed in Europe.

Those types of regulations are exactly the ones I am not in favor of.

Yea exactly that is what I’m thinking about! But I always find it funny considering a QR code payment app is very handy if implemented correctly. We have Swish in Sweden that is directly connected to our bank and phone number. And payment is confirmed with bankID. And you can also use it to send money to friends or online payment with immediate transaction.
Pay things online, pay bills and store purchases etc. and all banks support it

 

[I7guy]

The EU has made card payments more technically secure - while "free" countries were still using magstripe and allowing online card payments without strong customer authentication.


Quite the contrary. The EU has legally shifted responsibility for card fraud for "insecure" transactions to the issuer.
They have capped customer liability to certain amounts.

Once the criminals decide how they are going to get their fair share, the card issuers will be in the hook?

 

[tomtad]

The EU or Europe?

 

[iHorseHead]

The EU probably wants it mainly for their own in development EU eWallet.

and what would that be like?

 

[iHorseHead]

The EU or Europe?

"While the focus of these changes is within the EEA, a region broader than the European Union, the implications of the shift could have a broader impact on the mobile payments market globally. The EEA covers the overwhelming majority of the European market, and Apple's decision could set a precedent for its operations in other areas of the world in the future as antitrust scrutiny increases."

European Economic Area - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Roadstar]

“…alongside or instead of Apple Pay”

I’m curious how [edit: if it can be made convenient] NFC-enabled apps will work alongside Apple Pay if the consumer wants both.

[Also, Wallet App offers an express mode for transit passes. Will the banking apps be allowed to control that express mode for payments if the consumer wants that?]

One thing that comes to my mind is loyalty cards. The two largest retailers in Finland have NFC-enabled Android apps for their loalty cards that work alongside Google Pay while iOS users have had to settle for solutions like now-defunct MobilePay and scanning bar codes. If this means that we’ll get NFC-based loyalty cards also on iOS, I’m all for it.

 

[NagasakiGG]

You must not have shopped in Germany for the last 5-10 years. Some German stores accept girocard only - but they're getting less and less. 10% Mastercard/VISA acceptance is a ridiculously underestimated number.

I wish it was like that. When I renewed my ID I was only able to either pay cash or Girocard. That's just sad. But as I told, the numbers refer to local owned shops, not (big) franchises and/or chains like Edeka, Rewe, Thalia etc.

 

[Samplasion]

I wish it was like that. When I renewed my ID I was only able to either pay cash or Girocard. That's just sad.

Wow that's... interesting. In Italy, you must pay by credit/debit card or prepaid when renewing your ID

 

[1madman1]

If only they would do this in Canada as well... Would be great to not have to carry a transit card.

 

[lartola]

Well that’s awful, perhaps the U.S. should force everyone who uses contactless payment to accept Apple Pay, just like EU.

Perhaps that’s why Walmart failed in Europe.

Yea exactly that is what I’m thinking about! But I always find it funny considering a QR code payment app is very handy if implemented correctly. We have Swish in Sweden that is directly connected to our bank and phone number. And payment is confirmed with bankID. And you can also use it to send money to friends or online payment with immediate transaction.
Pay things online, pay bills and store purchases etc. and all banks support it

But merchants likely have to do some additional work to accept Swish, whereas NFC is a standard tech that comes with the same machines they have to get anyway in order to accept major credit and debit cards.

As for forcing all merchants in the US who take contactless to accept apple pay, that’s won’t be necessary because merchants accepting contactless in the US all take apple pay too just like in Europe. The merchants that are not accepting apple pay in the US, such as walmart, are merchants that actually don’t accept contactless payments at all (i.e., they have that feature completely disabled on the card readers or don’t have it at all and to pay there you have to either insert a chip card or use the merchant’s own QR based app). If anything, US merchants would need to be mandated to accept contactless payments, but that’s very difficult if not impossible, especially since there are still some merchants in the USA still using magnetic stripe only.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Those types of regulations are exactly the ones I am not in favor of.

Well not? It enforce the manufacturer of payment terminals to mint discriminate.

Once the criminals decide how they are going to get their fair share, the card issuers will be in the hook?

And how would they do that? Card fraud is many times lower and card present is close to exterminated.

 

[lartola]

One thing that comes to my mind is loyalty cards. The two largest retailers in Finland have NFC-enabled Android apps for their loalty cards that work alongside Google Pay while iOS users have had to settle for solutions like now-defunct MobilePay and scanning bar codes. If this means that we’ll get NFC-based loyalty cards also on iOS, I’m all for it.

NFC-based loyalty cards have been supported by Apple on iOS for years, the merchants are the ones who don’t want/care to enable nfc for their loyalty cards on iOS. Among the very few merchants around the world that did do it are the Walgreens pharmacies in the US.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

But merchants likely have to do some additional work to accept Swish, whereas NFC is a standard tech that comes with the same machines they have to get anyway in order to accept major credit and debit cards.

Well true that, but essentially what’s needed to be done is have their bank have Swish activated, and a QR code ether printed on a piece of paper or the phone number at checkout to have it as payment.

It came long after NFC terminals here. Magnetic strips card haven’t been used for decades, and most people have swish as it tends to be used by normal people to receive private payments

 

[cyb3rdud3]

It’s good for consumers whose bank/country doesn’t support apple pay. They’ll be able to pay at stores with their iphone without having to wait another decade for apple and their bank to reach an agreement.

Which memberstate of the EU has not got any banks that support Apple Pay?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The benefit is mostly for people who simply can’t use apple pay because their bank still doesn’t support it. There are still lots of non-participating banks in the EEA. Furthermore, this is the lead for other countries to follow: if Apple eventually opened the nfc worldwide, people in the 100+ countries where apple pay still isn’t officially supported could still at least pay at stores with their iphone using their bank’s app instead of being stuck with just a chip card for another 10 years. I’m surprised at how many people just don’t see this.

So what would make their bank support Apple Pay thereafter? Which countries in the EEA don't have any banks supporting Apple Pay? And then why not just open up another bank account if you want it so much?

 

[I7guy]

Well not? It enforce the manufacturer of payment terminals to mint discriminate.


And how would they do that? Card fraud is many times lower and card present is close to exterminated.

As I said, these are the types of regulations which I believe is overreach. Want open nfc? There is available hardware that fits the bill.

 

[nateo200]

I dunno how I feel about this. I'm not sure I like it but I hope that they open NFC functionality for smart card use. It would be AMAZING to use for use as say Apartment or Dorm unlocking or any number of uses

Another small frog added to the simmering pot of government overreach. The EU absolutely will not stop, ever, until they’ve reduced iOS security to a pile of burning embers. And folk are championing their efforts as if it’s all in the name of the end user. Lol.

I have to concur at least in part. I liked the USB-C thing but I did NOT like the fact that it took a multinational government cabal to force the issue. Its a slippery slope and I'm not sure sure the EU wants to avoid skiing really fast down this one straight into forcing Apple into making design choices that should be done by engineers not government bureaucrats with little accountability to all of Apples customers.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The benefit is mostly for people who simply can’t use apple pay because their bank still doesn’t support it. There are still lots of non-participating banks in the EEA. Furthermore, this is the lead for other countries to follow: if Apple eventually opened the nfc worldwide, people in the 100+ countries where apple pay still isn’t officially supported could still at least pay at stores with their iphone using their bank’s app instead of being stuck with just a chip card for another 10 years. I’m surprised at how many people just don’t see this.

The reason these banks aren’t supporting Apple Pay is because Apple asks for too big fee so they just decline it.

But it would be nice if Apple Cash would actually be usable >.> or that being able to register an ID etc, but Apple takes forever to do such conveniences

And I would say the biggest benefit of apples NFC or other things being opened up is that we won’t need to wait forever for iPhone functions we purchased at full price with our phones to actually be usable.

When will wallet ID get here?
When will the satellite emergency function become available in EU, 10 years?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

As I said, these are the types of regulations which I believe is overreach. Want open nfc? There is available hardware that fits the bill.

Oh no I don’t mean NFC on device. It was pushed that if a payment terminal supports NFC payment solutions, and as long as a service such as Apple Pay, Google pay etc meet the minimum technical safety standards required they couldn’t intentionally make them incompatible.

And considering the ones liable for fraud cases is the card networks/ banks they had every incentive for better payment options.

So Apple Pay was just automatically compatible from the get go as it effectively eliminated a lot of fraudulent transactions as a possibility.

Eu now have close to zero cases with card-present-frauds . And have lowered fraudulent transactions wih 50%~ from 0.048% of transactions in 2008 to 0.028% in 2021

I dunno how I feel about this. I'm not sure I like it but I hope that they open NFC functionality for smart card use. It would be AMAZING to use for use as say Apartment or Dorm unlocking or any number of uses

I have to concur at least in part. I liked the USB-C thing but I did NOT like the fact that it took a multinational government cabal to force the issue. Its a slippery slope and I'm not sure sure the EU wants to avoid skiing really fast down this one straight into forcing Apple into making design choices that should be done by engineers not government bureaucrats with little accountability to all of Apples customers.

Well to be fair Apple had signed the agreement with the rest of the industry of their intentions, but instead of trying to work in good faith for everyone’s benefit they kind of did nothing and rule skirted instead. In essence they where that one guy in a team project who did the bare minimum instead of helping, and therefore also encouraged some other people to drag their feet’s as a a response as wel.

So they had it coming by essentially having EU come and do the absolutely unnecessary work of explicitly holding their hand and dragging them over the finish line…. And the USB-C legislation wasn’t designed, but it implemented the USB-C standard as the USB-IF makes it, and would automatically update whenever the specifications are changed.

And I can say with the history of how EU works the likelihood of them ever designing something is close to zero. I think the closest design guidelines they “designed” was the new GDPR rules after many essentially just maliciously complied with it, and therefore forcing a more rigid approach for it.

EU absolutely hates micromanaging the market by telling them how things should be done, instead of outlining goals and intentions for everyone to achieve in their own unique ways and only interfere when some tries to play dirty.

Eu bureaucracy isn’t similar to the USA. And is very accountable to their constituents.

The practice of stuffing a bill/omnibus’s bill etc isn’t tolerated and only stick to single-subjects per legislation.

If EU tried to micromanage how things are done then nothing would ever pass and we would have endless legislative deadlock.