Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

AgeOfSpiracles

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2020
436
821
If it needs service, yes.
It needs battery replacement, but when I took it in last week they said they were no longer servicing any series 6 or later. I just chatted with Apple Support and according to him, they are resuming out-of-warranty service.... so fingers crossed that this is true when I take it back in after the new year!
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,052
Gotta be in it to win it
This is a major MAJOR flaw in patent law.

To be clear, I have no idea about this particular patent. I have no idea if Apple is at fault or not, though the facts seems to indicate they wronged.

The issue is as follows:

Company A, is a small to mid-size company. They invest significantly in a product and then further spend lots of money to ensure it is properly patented. Company B is a major company with two dozen in-house lawyers and a top law firm on retention. Company B knowing and intentionally violates the patents of Company A. Company A sues, at great expense, limiting cash-flow and funds for to R&D.

In the end, Company A runs out of money and they loose millions in patent licensing during the years, or decades, it takes to run through the court.

Company B goes on vacation in their private jets, fully-staffed yachts with mistresses in toe, high-fiving each other, knowing they just stole millions without repercussions thus reinforcing the nefarious behavior.

Again, I'm not saying this is Apple or not. I'm saying the system is broken.
You forgot a scenario where company b hypothetically gets company a’s patent dismissed because it’s overly broad. And you also neglected to mention company a abused their funding and flew around on jets, bought artwork etc.

Again we are talking fictional scenarios…right?
 

onenorth

macrumors 6502
Sep 15, 2021
489
612
This is a major MAJOR flaw in patent law.

To be clear, I have no idea about this particular patent. I have no idea if Apple is at fault or not, though the facts seems to indicate they wronged.

The issue is as follows:

Company A, is a small to mid-size company. They invest significantly in a product and then further spend lots of money to ensure it is properly patented. Company B is a major company with two dozen in-house lawyers and a top law firm on retention. Company B knowing and intentionally violates the patents of Company A. Company A sues, at great expense, limiting cash-flow and funds for to R&D.

In the end, Company A runs out of money and they loose millions in patent licensing during the years, or decades, it takes to run through the court.

Company B goes on vacation in their private jets, fully-staffed yachts with mistresses in toe, high-fiving each other, knowing they just stole millions without repercussions thus reinforcing the nefarious behavior.

Again, I'm not saying this is Apple or not. I'm saying the system is broken.
The flaw is not so much in the law as much as it is in how the law is used.

When someone gets a patent they should be ready and willing to spend the money to enforce their rights, otherwise the patent is just a piece of paper. It is as if someone trespasses on your land - you need to go to court to get them evicted, and that enforcement effort costs money.

Using patents strategically can make them useful - for example, seeking out licensing opportunities or holding the patents as a form of equity. Or, look at it as an opportunity to out-innovate the infringer such as by producing a competitive product instead of trying to hold back your competitors with your patents.

Obviously, a patent owner with deep pockets can hire lots of high priced lawyers to go after infringers, and likewise a deep pocketed infringer can hire lots of high priced lawyers to push back. In the end, it is a game of attrition.

The Shark Tank folks usually don't put a lot of stock in patents because they know the limitations. They know.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,690
22,251
Singapore
Giant mega corps win again

Too many here are rushing to sound the death knell for Apple regardless of the facts or the reality of the matter. In other words, they were more interested in hating on Apple than they were in being correct of their assessment of the current situation.

If you wonder why people continue to read Apple wrong year after year after year, this is the reason. Nobody wants to do any research; they just want to be right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gank41 and Timpetus

farmboy

macrumors 65816
Nov 26, 2003
1,306
488
Minnesota
This is the sad thing that I believe has created the largest wealth gap the US has seen. It needs to end. We can love Apple products but we should love each other more. The top 1% is hoarding more and more of the cash. I run an investing company, and I really despise what I have seen over the past ten years. It’s gone so far beyond fair and just. This isn’t competition, this is a bad system to allow the top 1% to control the world in a free-market society. People on here want to complain about Europe but USB C was a good thing for iPhone. There are good things that can happen from stopping Apple and other megacorporations from preventing, buying up or stealing competitors IP, products, ideas, apps, and employees to win and eliminate competition at all cost.
Do you realize that a billion stockholders own the stock of Apple and virtually every megacorp? Little people participating with little investments. Investing is not just for the wealthy--you can play too. Yes, the top "1%"--whoever they are, may have a lot of money. So what? They don't control the world, they don't control my life, why do they control yours?

As to buying up IP, nobody forces an IP holder to sell, and nobody forces an employee to go to work for Apple.

As to "preventing", patents grant a limited monopoly on the implementation of a concept; it does not prevent anyone from working around it, as the many millions of new patent applications every year around the world prove.

As to "stealing" that is usually settled in a courtroom or licensing between the parties. The details that matter in IP, such as the actual claims in a patent, never seem to get ahead of the internet posters quick opinions. The Apple v Masimo is not just a simple decision.

Ideas are out there for everybody, including you. Go ahead and invent a phone or OS or app. Whining serves no purpose.
 

MacProFCP

Contributor
Jun 14, 2007
1,222
2,957
Michigan
my point is how many lawyers Company A has to hire in order to find such flaw? I never knew you could "ban" the "ban" temporarily. Can Company B file try to ask ITC or cournt to unban the ban of the ban? lift the ban of the ban so Company A can be banned as they expected? I am so confused about all these rules, can't believe our legislators and lawyers in the United States are doing nothing but benefit themselves and know how to play around the rules they created and leave all the back doors for themselves. Who is going to protect us? didn't Company B's CEO said he believes even the world largest company is under such broken law? lol... what a drama

That’s the issue. Company B knows they can delay and delay in court, ad nauseam, while they can still profit from Company A’s investment.

The system rewards the bad actors.

You forgot a scenario where company b hypothetically gets company a’s patent dismissed because it’s overly broad. And you also neglected to mention company a abused their funding and flew around on jets, bought artwork etc.

Again we are talking fictional scenarios…right?

1. If a patent is approved incorrectly, that is a problem with the approval process. My point is that the current system of maintaining the status quo until every litigational resource is expended, in effect, rewards the bad actors and encourages unethical behavior.
 
  • Like
Reactions: carestudio

spazzcat

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2007
3,751
4,950
It needs battery replacement, but when I took it in last week they said they were no longer servicing any series 6 or later. I just chatted with Apple Support and according to him, they are resuming out-of-warranty service.... so fingers crossed that this is true when I take it back in after the new year!
The current stay is only 10 days so I wouldn’t wait too long.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,710
11,015
Glad they won the temporary stay. If this import ban is allowed to stand, then all Android phones should have been pulled from the shelves years ago.
Just admit you want all android phones import to be banned no matter what. Aka single-handedly fuels Apple’s total smartphones market domination in the US.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToyoCorollaGR

onenorth

macrumors 6502
Sep 15, 2021
489
612
The current stay is only 10 days so I wouldn’t wait too long.
The stay is until further notice from the court. All of the briefs must be filed by Jan. 15 and then the court will decide in the second half of January whether to extend the stay or to let the ban take effect during the appeal. So we have two-plus weeks at least.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,710
11,015
This is the sad thing that I believe has created the largest wealth gap the US has seen. It needs to end. We can love Apple products but we should love each other more. The top 1% is hoarding more and more of the cash. I run an investing company, and I really despise what I have seen over the past ten years. It’s gone so far beyond fair and just. This isn’t competition, this is a bad system to allow the top 1% to control the world in a free-market society. People on here want to complain about Europe but USB C was a good thing for iPhone. There are good things that can happen from stopping Apple and other megacorporations from preventing, buying up or stealing competitors IP, products, ideas, apps, and employees to win and eliminate competition at all cost.
The force redistribution of the wealth cannot happen within human society itself. Not even the slightest chance. It can only be achieved by extraterrestrial life, aka aliens.

Simply put, while I am all for supporting narrowing the wealth gap between wealthy and poor, I have negative faith this can be achieved anywhere on the planet by human themselves.
 

ronntaylor

macrumors 6502
Jan 16, 2004
343
3,388
Flushing, New York
It needs battery replacement, but when I took it in last week they said they were no longer servicing any series 6 or later. I just chatted with Apple Support and according to him, they are resuming out-of-warranty service.... so fingers crossed that this is true when I take it back in after the new year!
Apple says sales will resume in all physical stores by this Saturday (a few restarted already) and online sales resumed about 3pm today.

Edited to add: MR says online sales restart tomorrow at 12 noon PST while elsewhere I read online sales restarted at 3pm EST today.
 

onenorth

macrumors 6502
Sep 15, 2021
489
612
The force redistribution of the wealth cannot happen within human society itself. Not even the slightest chance. It can only be achieved by extraterrestrial life, aka aliens.

Simply put, while I am all for supporting narrowing the wealth gap between wealthy and poor, I have negative faith this can be achieved anywhere on the planet by human themselves.
Senator Elizabeth Warren would like to talk to you. :rolleyes:
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,052
Gotta be in it to win it
That’s the issue. Company B knows they can delay and delay in court, ad nauseam, while they can still profit from Company A’s investment.

The system rewards the bad actors.



1. If a patent is approved incorrectly, that is a problem with the approval process. My point is that the current system of maintaining the status quo until every litigational resource is expended, in effect, rewards the bad actors and encourages unethical behavior.
It’s good news/bad news. I’m glad there is a system in place to invalidate overly broad patents. The bad news is the way it has to happen. And if you are a small player to defend your patent is expensive. But if an overly broad patent wasn’t granted in the first place this problem wouldn’t exist.

So the system rewards those who file legitimate patents and should disincentivize those who try to file bogus patents.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,710
11,015
They won't disable it for the ones already sold as that would lead to a lawsuits as people can say they paid for and got the watch based on this feature. What they could do is disable it for all watches going forward in the USA via software and remove the feature from their website. Easy to do by serial number etc.
But look at 3D Touch on Apple Watch Series 4. It was disabled at apples own discretion and customer hasn’t done anything despite paid for the hardware several years ago.

This one will be no different. High legal fee and arduous process means it is completely not worth it to file a lawsuit against Apple for that ONE feature.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,710
11,015
The ITC hears patent disputes under section 337, which was designed to protect US industry from outside violations.

The only reason they are involved is because Apple manufactures the watches outside the US and ships them here. If they were produced in the US, the ITC wouldn't be involved.

So I guess more reason for Apple to diverse the supply chain and try to produce Apple Watch inside the US, at least for the ones sold in US market.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,710
11,015
I will sell my AAPL stocks next year.

Their illegal activities have become a disgrace. They should pay for patents like everybody else.

They have become a left-wing company.
Truly voting with your own wallet I see.
And in a more serious note, this “vote with your wallet” is far more impactful than just a handful of customers boycotting Apple.
 

StrongArmmed

macrumors regular
Aug 10, 2010
109
95
Miami, FL
Can anyone explain why this case was only heard after the ban came into effect?

Surely it would have been better before sales were disrupted?
Can't appeal a ban until the issue is "ripe", that is, until the ban (or other injury) takes effect (which in this case happens after the president declines to override the ITC decision). Additionally, courts tend to issue stays if they believe the appellant can win on the merits. Not saying that's what WILL happen, but the court might see arguments allowing Apple can overcome the ITC decision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: onenorth

jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
10,200
26,696
SoCal
But look at 3D Touch on Apple Watch Series 4. It was disabled at apples own discretion and customer hasn’t done anything despite paid for the hardware several years ago.

This one will be no different. High legal fee and arduous process means it is completely not worth it to file a lawsuit against Apple for that ONE feature.
while I am very highly confident that this (disabling SpO2 via SW) will not happen, if it does, there WILL be lawsuits en mass against Apple ...
 

bumblebritches5

macrumors 6502
Nov 7, 2012
437
192
Michigang
Apple doesn't keep more than a week's worth of inventory in the pipeline, and most of what they had left probably went to the third parties that were allowed to continue selling them.

With a stay on the ban, it means Apple can begin importing them, but starting that process back up is going to take more than 1 day.
Apple is not that lean dude, they have months of backstock hence wanting to update firmware in the box.

Have you already forgotten the M3 MacBooks coming with the previous OS, meaning they sat in a warehouse somewhere for at least 3 months?
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: AlastorKatriona

HylianKnight

macrumors 6502
Jul 18, 2017
462
489
The courts arguably had - they invalidated three of Massimo's five patents and failed to invalidate the other two due to a hung juror.

I could see Massimo feeling they were in trouble pursuing the matter through the courts based on how their patents were being invalidated and went to the ITC to see if they could get relief via an import ban, presumably to put pressure on Apple to settle.
It’s worth noting that the decision to invalidate several of the Masimo patents was because they were based on “prior art” and thus they are considered “obvious”. Another company has also won a decision invalidating Masimo patents for the same reason. Ironically, the “prior art” resulting in a ruling against Masimo was co-authored by the CEO of Masimo.

Patents do not last forever, nor are they meant to. People will inevitably “invent” the same thing because it becomes a common idea. Those ideas/things are not meant to be patentable anymore. That doesn’t stop companies with lots of money from trying.

Finally, my opinion–the offending patent that the ITC ruled on should also be invalidated for the reasons I have briefly discussed above.
 
Last edited:

ThailandToo

macrumors 6502
Apr 18, 2022
429
755
The force redistribution of the wealth cannot happen within human society itself. Not even the slightest chance. It can only be achieved by extraterrestrial life, aka aliens.

Simply put, while I am all for supporting narrowing the wealth gap between wealthy and poor, I have negative faith this can be achieved anywhere on the planet by human themselves.
I disagree. Greed is what drives Tim Cook to make the choices he makes to create the products where he does. Greed at the executive level is what has created these mega corporations. Look at Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, when they pass over 99% of their wealth will be donate to charity. That’s so critical to humanity. The issue is we need those people to stop the greed at the top to begin with. For Warren, it seems to be see how much he can amass to donate it away. Why not promote investing in companies that reward their employees as much as their shareholders? Warren invests in insurance companies the biggest portion of which steal at will from society. The ultra wealthy could instead decide to invest in companies that reward their employees at an equal level as the shareholders. At that level estimated 10,000 people control well over 90% of the stock of publicly owned corporations.

It used to be that companies would offer excellent pension programs and great healthcare benefits. That’s when it made sense to work for a company; now most people should want to build a company to ensure they can get ahead as working for someone else is a game where again the top 1% make it and the rest suffer.

As to you saying Aliens would have to come for us to do anything different as humans, I think we should be able to vote in politicians who are good and aren’t overcome with greed. We can’t even get that right. But if aliens actually came to this planet, it would potentially actually bring governments together but I doubt do little else to change humanity.

Someone else mentioned someone to me about building an app to better my life??? That person doesn’t know anything about anyone so no point in telling someone to live their life to build an app so Apple’s executives can make more money along with the top 1% who make over 90% of the profit based upon the decisions to leave the employees behind as people that get lost in the process of building mega companies. And you have me wrong in that I am an investor and we have built a business out of investing in companies that are changing the way business is done to ensure the future of humanity.
Do you realize that a billion stockholders own the stock of Apple and virtually every megacorp? Little people participating with little investments. Investing is not just for the wealthy--you can play too. Yes, the top "1%"--whoever they are, may have a lot of money. So what? They don't control the world, they don't control my life, why do they control yours?

As to buying up IP, nobody forces an IP holder to sell, and nobody forces an employee to go to work for Apple.

As to "preventing", patents grant a limited monopoly on the implementation of a concept; it does not prevent anyone from working around it, as the many millions of new patent applications every year around the world prove.

As to "stealing" that is usually settled in a courtroom or licensing between the parties. The details that matter in IP, such as the actual claims in a patent, never seem to get ahead of the internet posters quick opinions. The Apple v Masimo is not just a simple decision.

Ideas are out there for everybody, including you. Go ahead and invent a phone or OS or app. Whining serves no purpose.
hahaha

I don’t want any part of building an App and being used to make Tim more money.

Why don’t you go farm some more if we are going to tell each other what to do.

I gave my options as someone who has clients who invest upwards of $750m. I see the ultra wealthy, and most of my clients are Asian. They have far more morales and etc that US-based clients. In Japan, someone with great power and influence acts humble. They take great pride that the janitor makes enough money to afford a nice home, the spouse doesn’t have to work and can take care of the children and they have a family vehicle.

That’s what’s missing in US companies, as they used to be prideful in employing a great workforce who were well compensated for their work. Now, it’s all about meeting goals to ensure the executives get their annual $100m stock grant. They don’t care at all about the bottom 99% of the workforce. And the benefits are completely gone in America. There’s no pride in caring for the employees. Everyone is about greed for themselves, power for themselves, and they’re willing to sell the soul of the company to ensure they get their $100m stock grant annually. The decisions should sicken every American.

We used to be a country that could take pride and lots of business owners could excel. Middle managers could work and pay for their family’s needs. That’s all gone as well as the pensions and healthcare.

I am not bitter. I just care about humans, and I think people financing their iPhones should realize they’re not helping anyone but the top 1%. Everyone else is getting hosed on the deal. The employees who aren’t in the top 1% of importance in mission critical management and development are an afterthought to the executives.

It’s sad. I don’t care to make an app to make Tim more money. I care to show the world what is happening as these goes beyond capitalism. This is greed that’s destroying the country and dividing Americans.

It’s no wonder around the world everyone uses Android, as those companies at least small who try to build up something like Nothing will create more millionaires and more employees will earn something more than a paycheck. That’s what this is about, compensating employees fairly so everyone wins instead of the top 1%.
 

Terrinb

macrumors regular
Sep 24, 2015
135
144
Can anyone explain why this case was only heard after the ban came into effect?

Surely it would have been better before sales were disrupted?
Sure. The ITC is a federal agency and you can't appeal a federal agency decision through the federal court system until the agency's decision is final. In this case, the decision wasn't final until the President decided not not to over turn the ban. Once the decision becomes final the aggrieved party has a right to take the agency to federal court, which is what Apple has done.

The whole process is ridiculous, complicated, and often times unfair to the party being accused of a patent violation.

Keep in mind, the ITC only decides whether a patent is being violated not whether or not a patent is valid and should have been issued in the first place.

This can be an unfair process because the standard for the US patent office to issue a patent is fairly low, and often times patents that are issued are later found to be improperly issued.

However, the process for challenging the validity of the patent through the US patent office [also a federal agency] and then the court system is slow.

The process for the ITC issuing an import ban is fast in comparison.

So the result is you can have a situation where the actual patents that are alleged to have been breached are being successfully challenged in the patent office and/or court system, but the party that is being alleged to have breached the patents is subject to a import ban by the iTC.

This puts the pressure on the company alleged to have breached the patents to settle the patent dispute and pay licensing fees even if there is a strong change the patents will ultimately be overturned.

Subjecting a company like Apple to an import ban in this situation is ridiculous because the company that holds the patents has already said it is willing to negotiate a license with Apple. If that is the case, let the process play out and if the process determines that the patents are valid, a court will award the patent holder with damages.


In the case at hand Apple is in fact challenging the validity of the at issue patents with success, but whether or not the patents remain valid won't be determined until the Federal Appeals Court rules on the matter and the US Supreme Court decides whether or not to take on the case [assuming a party will appeal].
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.