EU Asks iMessage Users and Rivals If Service Should Be Regulated

[BaldiMac]

So what is your actual concern? What issue is it your identifying that exist in an interoperable system and not inherently in e2ee messaging?

I was quite clear in my original post that you quoted. "E2E encryption can't be preserved if you can't verify the endpoints."

And in what way is this different with your question to security? This isn’t a multi service client. I can send or receive iMessage messages with it or any other message.

When it e2e encryption fails the messages are just unreadable.

If you can't understand the difference between a messaging client and a messaging service, I don't know where to start.

Or what does interoperability means to you?

That you’re using one message to send to someone’s iMessage account, signal account, WhatsApp and sms at the same time?

It means being able to send from an iMessage account to an account on a different service (such as WhatApp, etc.)

 

[Naraxus]

Tell me you are American without saying you are an American.

I'll tell you anyway.

I am an American and I am damn proud to be one.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I was quite clear in my original post that you quoted. "E2E encryption can't be preserved if you can't verify the endpoints."

I understand that, but how is this any different on my other client? What technical differences is there to iMessage to imessage(on WhatsApp or signal)

If you can't understand the difference between a messaging client and a messaging service, I don't know where to start.

Sigh, in the same way the endpoint of my messages are verified as this is a hack and not officially supported by any of the client services. Would be better if an API or official support existed instead.

It means being able to send from an iMessage account to an account on a different service (such as WhatApp, etc.)

Oh so how I can receive WhatsApp or iMessages to my beeper account.

You would just need to be able to receive WhatsApp messages inside the iOS messenger client and WhatsApp needs to be able to receive other messages from other messaging services.

It can all be through a common protocol and server etc.

‎Beeper Cloud

‎All your chats in one app. Beeper is fast. A single app to chat on WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, and 10 other networks. No more switching between multiple apps to send messages. Become your most organized self with chat features like favoriting, pinning, and personalized archive...

apps.apple.com

 

[BaldiMac]

I understand that, but how is this any different on my other client? What technical differences is there to iMessage to imessage(on WhatsApp or signal)

Again, we are not talking about clients. We are talking about services. iMessage account to WhatsApp account. Not an iMessage account to an iMessage account in the WhatsApp client.

For example, if I am logged into iMessage on my phone, the EU want me to be able to send a message to someone who is only logged into a WhatsApp account on their phone. (Assuming Apple wanted to setup interoperability with the gatekeeper, WhatsApp)

Sigh, in the same way the endpoint of my messages are verified as this is a hack and not officially supported by any of the client services. Would be better if an API or official support existed instead.

Oh so how I can receive WhatsApp or iMessages to my beeper account.

You would just need to be able to receive WhatsApp messages inside the iOS messenger client and WhatsApp needs to be able to receive other messages from other messaging services.

It can all be through a common protocol and server etc.

‎Beeper Cloud

‎All your chats in one app. Beeper is fast. A single app to chat on WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, and 10 other networks. No more switching between multiple apps to send messages. Become your most organized self with chat features like favoriting, pinning, and personalized archive...

apps.apple.com

Nope. Again. Service interoperability. Not multi-service clients.

 

[d686546s]

Again, we are not talking about clients. We are talking about services. iMessage account to WhatsApp account. Not an iMessage account to an iMessage account in the WhatsApp client.

For example, if I am logged into iMessage on my phone, the EU want me to be able to send a message to someone who is only logged into a WhatsApp account on their phone. (Assuming Apple wanted to setup interoperability with the gatekeeper, WhatsApp)


Nope. Again. Service interoperability. Not multi-service clients.

You're entirely correct, although I'm not sure what would stop a messenger service requesting interoperability with various gatekeeper services and bundling this into a single app?

There's already apps attempting exactly that, why wouldn't they try to cut out the hoops they currently have to jump through?

 

[hsotnicam8002]

Idk how I feel, iMessage is nice but it automatically drops down to SMS/MMS and RCS is a tad shady.

‘Dropping down” to SMS/MMS is optional. See Settings.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Again, we are not talking about clients. We are talking about services. iMessage account to WhatsApp account. Not an iMessage account to an iMessage account in the WhatsApp client.

For example, if I am logged into iMessage on my phone, the EU want me to be able to send a message to someone who is only logged into a WhatsApp account on their phone. (Assuming Apple wanted to setup interoperability with the gatekeeper, WhatsApp)

Very interesting take as that is my complete opposite reading of the regulations.

Nothings says they have to allow you to send to a WhatsApp account in iOS messenger as that sounds weird. All that is required is the iOS messenger client can communicate with a WhatsApp client

So Apple would just need to be able to receive WhatsApp messages inside their iOS messenger and the WhatsApp app needs to be able to receive iMessages inside their client.

Nope. Again. Service interoperability. Not multi-service clients.

The client is the service
With regard to interpersonal communications services as defined in Article 2, point (5) of Directive (EU) 2018/1972. I can’t see how a multi service client client can’t meet the technical requirements.

 

[BaldiMac]

Very interesting take as that is my complete opposite reading of the regulations.

Nothings says they have to allow you to send to a WhatsApp account in iOS messenger as that sounds weird. All that is required is the iOS messenger client can communicate with a WhatsApp client

So Apple would just need to be able to receive WhatsApp messages inside their iOS messenger and the WhatsApp app needs to be able to receive iMessages inside their client.

The client is the service
With regard to interpersonal communications services as defined in Article 2, point (5) of Directive (EU) 2018/1972. I can’t see how a multi service client client can’t meet the technical requirements.

"(5) ‘interpersonal communications service’ means a service normally provided for remuneration that enables direct interpersonal and interactive exchange of information via electronic communications networks between a finite number of persons, whereby the persons initiating or participating in the communication determine its recipient(s) and does not include services which enable interpersonal and interactive communication merely as a minor ancillary feature that is intrinsically linked to another service;"

"(7) ‘number-independent interpersonal communications service’ means an interpersonal communications service which does not connect with publicly assigned numbering resources, namely, a number or numbers in national or international numbering plans, or which does not enable communication with a number or numbers in national or international numbering plans;"

I don't see how you can read that definition and conclude that a service is the same as a client. How would that even work? WhatsApp would have to build support into their app for any half-assed service that wanted to be there?!?

The DMA clearly specifies that the messaging services must be interoperable.

 

[No5tromo]

I just want to be using a singe cross-platform, cross-everything, one-protocol messaging app for everything and I couldn't care less if it's iMessage or if my bubbles are blue. Right now I gotta have iMessage, WhatsApp, Viber, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and what's the deal with you people using Instagram DMs as your messaging solution of choice?? Anyway, I'm all for declutterring and convenience so yea bring it on.

 

[it wasnt me]

I agree with the statement made on page one that Europeans generally use iMessage less. I mean, Android is a thing here, and I (personally) prefer Signal and Threema, as their privacy is pretty good and I can use them to have group chats with Android users. (No WhatsApp for me.)

However, what bothers me is that the European Union tries to weaken strong encryption here. When interoperability is out, I will make sure to block incoming messages from WhatsApp and other users if that's possible.

 

[mrochester]

Nothings says they have to allow you to send to a WhatsApp account in iOS messenger as that sounds weird.

That’s exactly what they’re saying they have to do from my understanding. The whole point of the regulation is so gatekeepers can’t keep people locked inside their messaging service (not that they can’t keep them locked in their messaging app).

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That’s exactly what they’re saying they have to do from my understanding. The whole point of the regulation is so gatekeepers can’t keep people locked inside their messaging service (not that they can’t keep them locked in their messaging app).

There no distinction between keeping users locket in their applications or service.

It requires that if let’s say signal asks Apple and WhatsApp to be allowed to be interoperable with their services then Apple/whatsapp are legally obliged to provide the functionality for signal to do that with feature/ experience parity to what the gatekeepers customers get as described in the law.

 

[BaldiMac]

There no distinction between keeping users locket in their applications or service.

It requires that if let’s say signal asks Apple and WhatsApp to be allowed to be interoperable with their services then Apple/whatsapp are legally obliged to provide the functionality for signal to do that with feature/ experience parity to what the gatekeepers customers get as described in the law.

We've been over this. Again, the DMA messaging regulation only refers to the service, not the app. It does not require feature parity. It only requires support for "basic functionalities" as laid out in Article 7.

 

[attila]

Who uses SMS anyway? Everybody I know have WhatsApp, if not iMessage, for over a decade. This is a non-issue.

 

[it wasnt me]

Who uses SMS anyway?

Young and/or privacy-aware people.