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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,280
1,642
Ontario Canada
I think you should probably just say “why are macs so expensive” because that’s really what the core complaint of this thread is.
It isn't my core complaint, nor do I think it is most peoples core complaint.

I bring up price when people bring up how Apple can't afford to offer more ram and maintain margins (the fact that RAM and storage prices have fallen means that defence doesn't hold much water) but that isn't the core of my complaint.

The core of my complaint is that the base RAM and storage should improve at a regular rate so that as time goes on you see continuous improvements. Apple shouldn't be proud of selling a machine with only 8-256 in 2023, it was borderline acceptable in 2020 but it is completely ridiculous that we are heading in to 2024 and the base MacBook Air hasn't had a memory upgrade in 6 years, the iMac in 12 years, the MBP in 7 years... etc... this is sad.
 
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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
I find it more interesting how Apple consistently offers differentiating features that allow it to charge a premium and how Apple's marketing can offset that premium.
And then suddenly a truly amazing non-premium product comes along. It only has a basic M1 chip, no Max or Pro. It has only 8 or 16 GB RAM. It only has a simple Retina display, no ProMotion or MiniLED. It only has TouchID, no FaceID and no notch. It’s only 24-inches, not 27 or 32. It only comes in 7 colors, none of them is black. It’s only $1,499 and after receiving glowing reviews initially, it’s quickly forgotten or ridiculed for being an All-in-One with soldered memory. 🤷🖥️
 
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andrewstirling

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2015
715
425
It isn't my core complaint, nor do I think it is most peoples core complaint.

I bring up price when people bring up how Apple can't afford to offer more ram and maintain margins (the fact that RAM and storage prices have fallen means that defence doesn't hold much water) but that isn't the core of my complaint.

The core of my complaint is that the base RAM and storage should improve at a regular rate so that as time goes on you see continuous improvements. Apple shouldn't be proud of selling a machine with only 8-256 in 2023, it was borderline acceptable in 2020 but it is completely ridiculous that we are heading in to 2024 and the base MacBook Air hasn't had a memory upgrade in 6 years, the iMac in 12 years, the MBP in 7 years... etc... this is sad.

What does it matter then if they keep selling the 8gb? Configurations with more memory are readily available for those that want them. If people don’t think the 8gb version is enough for them, they can easily purchase one with more memory.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,711
2,814
What does it matter then if they keep selling the 8gb? Configurations with more memory are readily available for those that want them. If people don’t think the 8gb version is enough for them, they can easily purchase one with more memory.
It's purely about money (not that I'm unsympathetic--Apple products are somewhat costly). Those hoping the starting config will be 16 GB are either (a) expecting Apple will maintain about the same starting price if it ups the starting RAM; or (b) finding that discounts are more routinely available on the starting model (thus if they up the starting RAM to 16 GB, they expect it will be easier to find 16 GB models discounted).
 

andrewstirling

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2015
715
425
It's purely about money (not that I'm unsympathetic--Apple products are somewhat costly). Those hoping the starting config will be 16 GB are either (a) expecting Apple will maintain about the same starting price if it ups the starting RAM; or (b) finding that discounts are more routinely available on the starting model (thus if they up the starting RAM to 16 GB, they expect it will be easier to find 16 GB models discounted).

Completely agree. I wonder what the view would be if every configuration was reduced by £200
 

Baseiseough

macrumors member
Nov 4, 2023
36
53
Just made a test. While I was rendering the blender classroom using blender 4. I opened a few tabs in Safari, opened ten pages documents with lots of vector images, one numbers document and a 700MB photoshop file. The base M2 MacBook Air was entirely responsive and got a little warm during all the rendering. Rendering time: about 11 minutes.

I decided to do another test. I quit all the apps and re-did the rendering. I did the same on an M1 Max Mac Studio with 32GB ram. Rendering time: MacBook Air: 9mins 38 seconds. Mac Studio: 6 mins 49 seconds. The M1 Max has 4 times the ram, twice the HDD, 3 times the GPU cores, twice the performance CPU cores and an active cooling system, yet, it was only less than 3 minutes faster. So, for the average computer user, is the base Mac model worth it? Absolutely. Now, imagine a M3 laptop with an active cooling system like the base MacBook Pro. I suppose the difference in performance with the M1 Max Mac Studio to be even less. That's pretty impressive for an about a year / a year and a half evolution.

And to those saying the base Macs are expensive compared to PC parts combined, you are right. But don't forget to take in consideration all the software that is included with the base Mac ( OS, iWork, iMessage, iMovie and GarageBand) and all the updates that will be free for the life of the computer.
 
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ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
925
1,122
Just made a test. While I was rendering the blender classroom using blender 4. I opened a few tabs in Safari, opened ten pages documents with lots of vector images, one numbers document and a 700MB photoshop file. The base M2 MacBook Air was entirely responsive and got a little warm during all the rendering. Rendering time: about 11 minutes.

I decided to do another test. I quit all the apps and re-did the rendering. I did the same on an M1 Max Mac Studio with 32GB ram. Rendering time: MacBook Air: 9mins 38 seconds. Mac Studio: 6 mins 49 seconds. The M1 Max has 4 times the ram, twice the HDD, 3 times the GPU cores, twice the performance CPU cores and an active cooling system, yet, it was only less than 3 minutes faster. So, for the average computer user, is the base Mac model worth it? Absolutely. Now, imagine a M3 laptop with an active cooling system like the base MacBook Pro. I suppose the difference in performance with the M1 Max Mac Studio to be even less. That's pretty impressive for an about a year / a year and a half evolution.

And to those saying the base Macs are expensive compared to PC parts combined, you are right. But don't forget to take in consideration all the software that is included with the base Mac ( OS, iWork, iMessage, iMovie and GarageBand) and all the updates that will be free for the life of the computer.
Running photoshop and blender at the same time on an 8GB system is impressive. Seems it didn't perform too badly.
 

Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
7,078
8,453
What does it matter then if they keep selling the 8gb? Configurations with more memory are readily available for those that want them. If people don’t think the 8gb version is enough for them, they can easily purchase one with more memory.

I agree with that, but I think it's more from a price scaling standpoint. That means there is no base config with 16GB. If you want that, it will cost more, when some might just like the basic config, but with at least 16GB of RAM - and not have to pay a premium.
 

Baseiseough

macrumors member
Nov 4, 2023
36
53
ArkSingularity, I was surprised as well. I didn’t get the air for that kind of workflow and probably won’t in the future since I have the Studio. That being said, if the 8GB Air can do it, it certainly can do basic office stuff, web browsing and light photo editing without problems for many years to come. Same for the base M3 MacBook Pro.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,990
11,742
It's hilarious that this thread is still going... How many different ways can people keep trying to say "I want more for less".

It isn't my core complaint, nor do I think it is most peoples core complaint.

If this wasn't the complaint, people would just buy the machine they want and which is available and be done with it.

I bring up price when people bring up how Apple can't afford to offer more ram and maintain margins (the fact that RAM and storage prices have fallen means that defence doesn't hold much water) but that isn't the core of my complaint.

The word "afford" doesn't belong in this sentence first of all. It's not about afford. It's about responsible business decisions.

If Apple offered more RAM in the base model, they couldn't justify discounting it as much as they do relative to the higher RAM models. It's that simple.

The core of my complaint is that the base RAM and storage should improve at a regular rate so that as time goes on you see continuous improvements. Apple shouldn't be proud of selling a machine with only 8-256 in 2023, it was borderline acceptable in 2020 but it is completely ridiculous that we are heading in to 2024 and the base MacBook Air hasn't had a memory upgrade in 6 years, the iMac in 12 years, the MBP in 7 years... etc... this is sad.

These are arbitrary judgments and 'in 2023' sounds like a clause added for SEO. "Worst laptop decisions in 2023". Why do computers only have N USB ports in 2023 when they had the same number in 2010? Because it's enough, is why. You know it's enough because people buy them. All of the weird math people try to do to somehow "prove" their point just doesn't add up to beans.

We've had memory upgrades. To say otherwise is completely, demonstrably, and ludicrously false. The MBP is now available with 128GB when it never was before. What hasn't changed is the RAM in the cheapest model. You want the cheapest model to have more RAM because you think the 16GB model, which exists, is too expensive. That, by all evidence, looks to be people's core complaint. All the 750+ posts on this topic are the result of people being unable to simply make that one simple statement.
 

Appletoni

Suspended
Mar 26, 2021
443
177
I'm so incredibly disappointed in the 14" M3 MacBook Pro. There is NOTHING about that machine that is "Pro". 8GB of RAM in a pro machine is a joke, as is only being able to drive a single external display and having only two Thunderbolt ports. The 512GB SSD is merely "acceptable", which is fine in the base machine I suppose. What's aggravating is that Apple had to TRY to neuter this machine. This is better than the 13" Pro it's replacing, but just barely. I'm continuing to hold out for an M3 Air 15". I'm sure it'll only be $200 cheaper, but I'm not paying extra for the 14" non-Pro.

How can Apple sell a Mac with 8GB of RAM in 2023 and call it "Pro"​

It's obviously a JOKE.
That's why we are buying MacBooks with 16-inch M3 MAX chip and at least 64 GB RAM, better 128 GB RAM and are fine for many years.
The 8 GB RAM version is only to get people into Apple world.
 
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hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,362
2,964
The core of my complaint is that the base RAM and storage should improve at a regular rate so that as time goes on you see continuous improvements.

Do you have the same standard for monitors?

The first 4K monitor debuted in 2001 and it's still the norm for screens in the Windows world.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,280
1,642
Ontario Canada
Do you have the same standard for monitors?

The first 4K monitor debuted in 2001 and it's still the norm for screens in the Windows world.
So I mostly care about Apple, I think that Apple should not use the storage and RAM given out by windows OEMs as a guide and should instead offer something better - similarly I don't think Apple should take rely on third party monitor improvement rate as their guide.

Apple has moved to High DPI across the line, much higher than windows standards in most cases. I think the MBA was non-retina for too long and that they continued to sell the old 21.5" 1080p model for too long but today Apple has managed to make its whole line Retina.

I go back and forth on whether or not Apple is behind on adopting OLED, on the one hand they have moved the phone, on the other there are still some burn-in drawbacks on OLED and I do really like the Mini LED in display in my MBP so I'm not sure if it is the right time yet but they should be advancing their mini led density more quickly.

The Pro Display XDR is kind of a joke given that the MBP now has more local dimming zones than does their $5000 display... which is kind of ridiculous.
 

AdamBuker

macrumors regular
Mar 1, 2018
105
171
I can't believe I read through this whole thing finally. o_O Wow.

I've read similar complaints regarding the $3000 pricing premium between the Mac Pro and a similarly configured Mac Studio. Apple users complaining about Apple seems to be the third most certain thing right after death and taxes.

I have no expectations of changing anyone's mind around here, but I do want to leave my two cents for what it's worth.

I use my macs for video editing (1080p/4k of varying complexity), music/audio production, image editing, Apple ][ emulation (I still like using Appleworks for most of my writing, Scrivener. But what are the macs that I use for these tasks? Well call me crazy, but I prefer using my late 2005 2.0 Ghz Dual Core PowerMac G5 and my Early 2005 15" PowerBook G4. In the G5 I have upgraded the ram to max of 16GBs and put in two 1TB SSD's and put in a Radeon X1900 XT Mac Edition. The PowerBook has maxed out RAM at 2GB and a 120 GB SSD.

I also regularly use my M1 Mini that I purchased with 16 GB that I use for all the internet silliness that my other macs are too old to handle. Let me tell you 16GB on a G5 is way different than a 16GB on a modern mac.

I also use my Apple //e, the exact same one that I've owned since I was a kid, for serious writing. I'm writing my first novel entirely on this machine. I secretly suspect that of all my computers, this is the one with the greatest chance of outliving me. Maybe my kids will inherit it along with my cast iron pans.

If you're still reading, then you're probably wondering either what my point is, or why I would torture myself by not just moving everything to the MacMini since that would be the logical choice.

Here's the thing. If my old macs were still capable of providing a decent web experience on Leopard along with connecting to modern internet cloud services that I use, I would never have bought a modern Mac Mini. While there are certain features of Modern MacOS that I like (Dark Mode, multiple display handling, resizing windows from any side, finder tabs, reminders integration, control center), there is also a lot that just works better for me in Leopard. I prefer having Expose and Spaces like the way Leopard does it. The changes to the basic finder window made in Big Sur make it frequently obscure items in my toolbar. The recent remake of System Preferences into System Settings was and continues to be frustrating. Don't get me wrong, that System Preferences needed to be overhauled, but the overhaul should make things more logical in both categorization and nesting complexity of options. As far as widgets, Apple has yet to come close to the speed and convenience of Dashboard let alone surpass it. I was hopeful for Sonoma, but again disappointed.

I could have bought a cheap Windows box for all of my internet stuff, but I use a cheap Windows 10 box at work and my morality is against masochism.

So where was I going with this?

So back in the early 80's, the big 'Pro' customer that Apple was desperately trying to target were business professionals in offices needing to do word processing, database entry, and spread sheets. They had made some headway with the Apple ][ with apps like VisiCalc and Appleworks, but the PC happened and the Mac was largely seen as a toy until desktop publishing arrived, and even then it was relegated to the graphics department. Back then, these use cases were demanding and did push the computers of that era to their limits. Heck, the first so-called 'Pro' named product was probably the ProFile 5MB hard drive that could be used with either the Apple II line, Apple ///, or the Lisa. It was clearly aimed at office professionals or any professional that needed massive storage.

Now allow me to be a bit pedantic and split some hairs (not my hairs though, as they are long gone. That's why I'm wearing the hat. Why are you still reading this?!)

I think the 14" M3 MacBook Pro is the perfect machine for such office professionals. Think of a realtor. They probably use some kind of web-based CRM, need to take/upload photos and video of listings, need standard office productivity apps, if they work in a large firm, they might use Slack or some equivalent for interoffice communication. They may even need to give an occasional presentation. Now all of this can be done on a MacBook Air, but I can see where having the HDMI port, the SD card slot, the brighter display, and even the cooling fan would be a boon to this realtor even if they don't need more than the standard 8/256 configuration mode. Similar arguments could be made for a professor who mainly uses the web, Scrivener, PowerPoint/Keynote, and Word/Pages. I think such people are the real targets for this machine, and this machine is much better suited to them than the 13" MBP ever was. The major upside of the Air is the lower price and portability. Now is Apple going to come outright and say this laptop is for office professionals. No. Office work is uncool and totally not sexy, but music, video editing, and 3D modeling are sexy and aspirational uses cases for cool people that do well. Ironically this was thought of by marketing execs who aren't cool enough to do video ediitng of a music video modeled in 3D. I am not cool. I'm not even cool enough for marketing. I am a total dork. At least my wife loves me, though.

Now I can take a look at my own use cases. I plan to use my old PowerPC macs until they are absolutely as dead as my old Geocities webpage (remember those?) from back in the day. Don't ask me why I like them. They get out of my way when I use them for the work I do with them. They are both in a stable configuration that won't be broken in some way with the next update. When they inevitably go, I'm not sure if I will try to buy a laptop that I can do everything I use all of my macs for thus replacing everything except for the Apple //e that will outlive us all. Or do I buy a base-model studio for all of my multimedia production and then a cheap MBA for everything else? I don't know and I am in no hurry (i.e. financial condition) to make such decisions. My current status suits me fine.

However, I could spend $3k on the base model M1 Air and base Mac Studio, but I could also spend a comparable amount on the base 14" M3 Max MBP variant. If I do that, then I'll be tempted into thinking that if I get more seriously into video editing and want to take my work everywhere, then I'll need to buy more internal storage and ram since I would want to have this unit self-contained as much as possible so as to maintain its portability. So I would likely spend more and get a 48GB/1TB configuration at minimum. I'd probably regret not getting at least 2TB, otherwise I'll have to be constantly offloading older projects. So now on the MBP, I'm at $4099 in my configuration. With the Studio/MBA combo, internal storage doesn't matter as I would not need to edit on the MBA, so I could keep that base. Nor do I need more than 512GB for the Studio as I have a plethora of external storage that would be permanently attached to it. Each machine would be true to what it does best, and I wouldn't need to get suckered in by the ridiculous pricing for the upgrades.

Here's what I really don't understand after reading 32 pages of this thread. Why would anybody, no matter their financial condition or technical knowledge, not do any research as to what will best fit their needs when laying down thousands of dollars on a machine they need to do a job? After playing with Apple's pricing scheme, I quickly found a much better solution without allowing AAPL to price gouge me for it. For less than the price of the upgrades I would have had to put into buying one machine, I could buy two more specialized machines for their respective tasks. For the pricing of AAPL's upgrades, that M3 MBP better do my dishes. But not my cast iron skillets. I'll kill anyone or anything that messes up the seasoning on those.

PS This whole rambling nonsensical rant was typed and posted from my PowerBook G4.
 
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Bob58

macrumors newbie
Dec 6, 2023
1
2
I found using a single graphics program at even 16GB of ram required closing every other application and then still not perfect. I want Apple to post head to head stats with windows computers with double the RAM and I doubt it will be the same performance, I equally doubt they will do this. Pro models should start minimum with 32GB of RAM to be considered Pro. This is greed only but the downside is users who opt in at low RAM will suffer the consequences of choppy performance and lag in many cases. I have 64GB now and that has been fine. Even at the absurd upgrade costs, there is no other choice.
 

Certificate of Excellence

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2021
836
1,275
Let the consumer choose with their wallets.

That 8gb MBP is for people who perceive a pro need or the pro moniker . Prosumers where their time is literal money and where minutes cost, will anticipate that bottleneck and buy up to a 16-32-64gb + model.

8gb is fine for college kids and most adults daily driver tasks and more intensive video tasks of your typical consumer and will be for years to come.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2007
1,280
1,642
Ontario Canada
Let the consumer choose with their wallets.

That 8gb MBP is for people who perceive a pro need or the pro moniker . Prosumers where their time is literal money and where minutes cost, will anticipate that bottleneck and buy up to a 16-32-64gb + model.

8gb is fine for college kids and most adults daily driver tasks and more intensive video tasks of your typical consumer and will be for years to come.
8GB is a problem because, yeah it's fine if you know the device will only ever be used for basic uses, but this is so limiting! It prevents the user from growing with their device: If they start programming, take a data science course, start running more electron apps, or want to play games they will start to feel the limits of only 8GB of memory.

It also limits the capabilities of future OS release features. Google just released their Gemini ML model and the Nano variant can run on pixel phones. Memory constraints are a real issue with ML models and by limiting the amount of memory in Macs the base Macs are not going to be able to run larger models as smoothly. As AI gets more and more integrated there are real privacy reasons to want to run it on device and the capability of the model will be limited by only 8GB of memory.

Also: Let the consumer choose with their wallets - give them back the 4GB of memory as 128 GB of storage options, how dare Apple move the base model forward, those amounts were fine if all you do is email and use safari, they should have kept them around. \s

Edit: Having such a bad baseline also means that the device is harder to reuse/resell in the future and pass on to others as it will be more limited than a better baseline.
 

conmee

macrumors regular
Mar 4, 2019
113
165
Reno, NV
I think 8GB is a good starting point for the MacBook Pro and provides valuable life lessons for all of us.

1) It teaches patience to those who rend their garments and gnash their teeth at the absurdity and cognitive dissonance of Apple marketing a Pro machine with less-than-Pro specifications, which is also helpful for those OCD folks to know there are some itches you'll just never be able to scratch. Think of an 8GB MacBook Pro as an eternal dead pixel on your mind's beautiful 8K OLED display that you'll simply never be able to ignore because it's right smack dab in the middle of your field of vision.

2) For those souls brave enough to "grow" with their machines, what better lesson than buying an inadequate machine from the get-go? The pain of knowing you could have just paid an additional $200 the first time around, but now shelling out another +$1600 or so (not to mention the poor resale value on the initial purchase) for an adequately spec'd MacBook Pro to accommodate unforeseen OS improvements or moderately demanding activities while remaining in the Apple ecosystem and having to swallow pride and bottle up seething anger will be a lesson not soon forgotten. Adding insult to injury would be digging in one's heels to save money by buying a PC during a fit of rage to spite Apple only to find one's self relegated to the world of Windows.

3) And for those that feel the anger, pain, and outrage on behalf of the unwitting purchasers of such a limiting device? It is no easy task to internalize and manage those proxy emotions, knowing you have the answers but are unable to help others avert disaster and have no ability to influence Apple marketers. You are the modern day Cassandras. You see the car wreck, you know the outcome, but you are powerless. Despite best intentions, not everyone can or wants to be saved. We want all of God's children to prosper, but alas, some will stay on the straight and narrow, some will take detours, and some will find themselves in a soldered non-expandable, non-user-upgradeable, iFixit score of "0" dead end. That's just the way she goes.

Sometimes you need to lose a tooth, poke an eye out, scrape a knee, break a bone to really appreciate the good things in life. And in that spirit, Apple has done the world a great service by offering 8GB MacBook Pros.
 

gpat

macrumors 68000
Mar 1, 2011
1,874
5,054
Italy
As AI gets more and more integrated there are real privacy reasons to want to run it on device and the capability of the model will be limited by only 8GB of memory.

Too true. I'm running Whisper Transcription with the largest model and my 16GB M1P is proving itself to be worth every penny.
5 years ago, I would have paid this price even for running only this single application.
As soon as Apple releases the first AI focused macOS, all the whining about the 8GB Macs is going to increase tenfold.
 
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Certificate of Excellence

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2021
836
1,275
8GB is a problem because, yeah it's fine if you know the device will only ever be used for basic uses, but this is so limiting! It prevents the user from growing with their device: If they start programming, take a data science course, start running more electron apps, or want to play games they will start to feel the limits of only 8GB of memory.

It also limits the capabilities of future OS release features. Google just released their Gemini ML model and the Nano variant can run on pixel phones. Memory constraints are a real issue with ML models and by limiting the amount of memory in Macs the base Macs are not going to be able to run larger models as smoothly. As AI gets more and more integrated there are real privacy reasons to want to run it on device and the capability of the model will be limited by only 8GB of memory.

Also: Let the consumer choose with their wallets - give them back the 4GB of memory as 128 GB of storage options, how dare Apple move the base model forward, those amounts were fine if all you do is email and use safari, they should have kept them around. \s

Edit: Having such a bad baseline also means that the device is harder to reuse/resell in the future and pass on to others as it will be more limited than a better baseline.
All valid points. I stand by letting the consumer choose their need & price point. Growth doesn’t mean growth with Apple and macOS either but for the majority of people I do believe 8gb is more than enough for their day to day needs , creating/uploading a video, schoolwork, streaming media etc. Considering we have entire forums here dedicated to very obsolete early Intel and PowerPC hardware with humorously meager resources and those users able to still creatively access much of the modern web, a current MBP, with current macOS even with 8gb will be productive for years for most people’s mundane daily tasks. If your path takes you on a coding masterclass & hostile take over of Silicon Valley then yes you probably will need to upgrade but for the majority of us, this will not be the case. We’ll be on the same email-YouTube-MSoffice-iTunes track we were on 10 years ago. For most folks I think a M2 mbp with 8gb will work fine for them for a very long time. :)
 

JinxVi

Suspended
Dec 13, 2023
87
107
Some people have way too much cash on hand to burn.
Buy cheap, buy twice! You can easily spend the same amount on a series of cheap crappy notebooks, which won't last very long and have no resale value despite being upgradable.
 
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