Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Oh God. Where to begin? I know...first of all you're coming from the angle that $1299 is overpriced for what you get, then you go on to to say just how great it is for your particular needs. I think you're one of those people who wear camo trousers with a hi-viz jacket because you can't decide if you want to be seen or not.
Oddly, I don't own either. By all means try again.

However, I just checked what I said which you are responding to, and I didn't actually say either of those things. What I said was "alluring price, yeah. $1299, I would call that many things, but 'alluring' isn't one of them.". I don't believe that needs a translation, and if it did, it wouldn't be the one you have applied.

If you want to discuss something I said, by all means, but discuss what I said. I don't place any value in discussing what you wish I'd said.

As for your other points, you lost me at 'fanboi'.
 
  • Love
Reactions: kitKAC

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Do people seriously not know how to use bookmarks these days... it's a basic feature every browser has
I do like this thought. And it's an irony that there are so many complaints about how macOS (and Windows too) is bloating so much that sensible memory capacities are nowhere near enough these days, and yet we leave browser tabs open by the dozens - which with some browser RAM management being as bad as it is, creates far more of a problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chuckeee

filmgirl

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2007
380
324
Seattle, WA
It's the opposite for me. I wonder how much money Apple is leaving on the table by making their devices too good, to the point where people just aren't upgrading as often.

I actually sort of think these are sort of the same problem, to be honest. Yes, the Apple silicon machines are great performers (for laptops anyway — with a desktop, where power efficiency doesn’t matter as much, I don’t think the Apple silicon offerings are as impressive, comparatively) and if you want an incredibly fast laptop that has terrific battery life and is silent or makes very little noise, Apple is the leader by a significant margin.

Having said that, Apple has given users very few reasons to upgrade from a 2020/2021 machine and even worse, to choose a 2024 machine over an older model. Now, part of that is the absolute out of the park home-run Apple hit with the first Apple silicon laptops in 2020 and the redesigned 14/16 MBP in 2021. There is a good argument to be made that the performance was so good, especially compared to the late-model Intel laptops, it was almost *too* much. Like, I think there is a business argument someone would some that if Apple had shipped the initial M1 series devices but capped them at 80% of the performance they offered, they might have shortened the upgrade cycle. To be clear, I’m glad they didn’t do that, but I think you can make the argument that they went faster/more efficient than they needed to, in retrospect.

The other part of the elongated upgrade cycle is that the subsequent machines just haven’t offered a lot of reason for people to upgrade, and not just because the old ones were so good, but because the base offerings of the new machines aren’t different enough for the price. In fact, there are some regressions (like the SSD speed in the 2022 base model MBAs and the memory bandwidth downgrade for all but the 16-core Max chips in the late-2023 MBPs). And at least for the 14”/16” model, Apple has introduced more variants that have effectively raised prices compared to the highest end 2021/early 2023 variants (The highest specced M3 Max with 128GB of RAM is $1000 more than the highest specced M1 Max with 64GB of RAM 2021 model and $600 not than the highest-specced M2 Max with 96GB of RAM).

But put the high-end models aside, those are the whales anyway, look at the MBAs: the base specs are still the same as they were 4 years ago: 256GB SSD and 8GB of RAM. The starting price is higher than it was 4 years ago and they are still selling the 2020 model at Walmart and the 2022 model for $999. Usually, after 4 years, there would be people who would want to upgrade their laptop. But it’s a hard sell when the processor improvements are still incremental and the base config is the same.

Apple can’t do much about the incremental processor spec bumps, but it can make the base configurations more compelling. A customer who got an MBA in 2020 or 2021 and enjoyed it but finds the storage a little tight and the RAM insufficient might be willing to upgrade if another base model was 16/512. But when it will cost $1500 minimum to get that spec for an M3, which might be 150% of what you paid for your 2020 MacBook Air, that’s a much harder upgrade decision to make.

So yes, they might be leaving money on the table on account of how good the Apple silicon chips were, especially at first. But I think they are equally losing customers who would upgrade or consider upgrading their machines by keeping the base specs so anemic in 2024, especially when RAM and storage are the main performance differentiators for the entry-level machines.
 

Moncler

macrumors member
Apr 4, 2024
40
23
Apple's customer base has remained strong, and the company continues to be a leader in the tech industry. While it's true that Apple products are generally positioned at the higher end of the market in terms of pricing, the company has a loyal customer base who value the quality, design, and ecosystem of Apple products. Additionally, Apple has introduced more budget-friendly options in recent years, such as the iPhone SE and the lower-priced iPad models, in order to appeal to a wider range of customers.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors Pentium
Mar 19, 2008
15,066
32,352
But I think they are equally losing customers who would upgrade or consider upgrading their machines by keeping the base specs so anemic in 2024, especially when RAM and storage are the main performance differentiators for the entry-level machines.

…and, for me at least, having the spec upgrade pricing so hideously overpriced
It just makes me close the browser window and stop shopping straight away

There is “charging a premium” and “straight ripping people off in broad daylight.”
They've drifted into the latter for me
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Moncler

taliz

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
100
129
Do people seriously not know how to use bookmarks these days... it's a basic feature every browser has
Why the heck would you use bookmarks today? Bookmarks are something from the past, when RAM was expensive and limited. Dealing with that today is like washing your own dishes when there's a dishwasher. 😂
I want all my content available instantly, and I don't want to spend a second managing bookmarks.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,556
9,699
Bookmarks are something from the past, when RAM was expensive and limited. Dealing with that today is like washing your own dishes when there's a dishwasher. 😂
I want all my content available instantly, and I don't want to spend a second managing bookmarks.

Then quit complaining about base configurations and buy a Mac that suits your use case. If you want "hundreds of tabs in multiple browsers open at the same time" it will likely require more than any manufacturers base configuration RAM.

PS - Still waiting for you to tell us how long your 2011 lasted, I won't be holding my breath as you are not debating in good faith. You only seem to be here to rant about what you cannot get for "free".
 
Last edited:

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Why the heck would you use bookmarks today? Bookmarks are something from the past, when RAM was expensive and limited. Dealing with that today is like washing your own dishes when there's a dishwasher. 😂
I want all my content available instantly, and I don't want to spend a second managing bookmarks.
This isn't a technology problem but an attitude one, so it's not one that needs technology to fix.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,690
22,253
Singapore
Apple can’t do much about the incremental processor spec bumps, but it can make the base configurations more compelling. A customer who got an MBA in 2020 or 2021 and enjoyed it but finds the storage a little tight and the RAM insufficient might be willing to upgrade if another base model was 16/512. But when it will cost $1500 minimum to get that spec for an M3, which might be 150% of what you paid for your 2020 MacBook Air, that’s a much harder upgrade decision to make.

So yes, they might be leaving money on the table on account of how good the Apple silicon chips were, especially at first. But I think they are equally losing customers who would upgrade or consider upgrading their machines by keeping the base specs so anemic in 2024, especially when RAM and storage are the main performance differentiators for the entry-level machines.
How many sales would Apple be losing to people opting for souped up based models instead of their more expensive MBPs with the M3 Pro-series and later chips though?

The base model MBAs ship with 8gb ram because I believe that's what the majority of non-pro users legitimately need. Anymore is always nice to have, but 8gb ram is not going to mean your laptop screams to a halt just because it has a few chrome tabs open. I mean, seriously, I bought the base M1 MBA in 2020 and today, it's still going strong and I don't feel like I would have been any better off with more ram. My device isn't slow and I am torn between getting the 15" MBA vs simply sticking with what I currently have because it's still working so well.

Meanwhile, if you want 16 or more ram, it implies that you have more demanding workflows, and my guess is Apple hopes to steer you towards their pro models (eg: by the time you upgrade your ram and storage, you may as well just get an M3 Pro MBP for a little more cash and get the benefits of more ports and better monitor support.

I suspect that doing so would result in less overall sales (ie: maybe a few more units of M3 Macs, but fewer pro Macs sold, for less revenue overall).

A lot of things make sense when you at them in totality, rather than at individual instances in a vacuum.
 

taliz

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
100
129
This isn't a technology problem but an attitude one, so it's not one that needs technology to fix.
😂 that's just hilarious! What kind of attitude is it you need to handle a Mac? Bow to the mighty Lords of Apple and accept whatever you're given?
 

taliz

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
100
129
Then quit complaining about base configurations and buy a Mac that suits your use case. If you want "hundreds of tabs in multiple browsers open at the same time" it will likely require more than any manufacturers base configuration RAM.

PS - Still waiting for you to tell us how long your 2011 lasted, I won't be holding my breath as you are not debating in good faith. You only seem to be here to rant about what you cannot get for "free".
When I pay a premium price for a premium product I expect it to perform well in the base config. I don't expect having to be forced to give upp even more of my hard earned money just to get decent performance for such a basic task as browsing the web.

It lasted 4 years. As said I still have a Dell that performs well after 10 years, and it costed much less too.
Free? Where do I get a free MBA? 😂
 
  • Sad
Reactions: Chuckeee

filmgirl

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2007
380
324
Seattle, WA
The base model MBAs ship with 8gb ram because I believe that's what the majority of non-pro users legitimately need. Anymore is always nice to have, but 8gb ram is not going to mean your laptop screams to a halt just because it has a few chrome tabs open. I mean, seriously, I bought the base M1 MBA in 2020 and today, it's still going strong and I don't feel like I would have been any better off with more ram. My device isn't slow and I am torn between getting the 15" MBA vs simply sticking with what I currently have because it's still working so well.

OK, but you’re torn between that new 15” and sticking with what you’ve got because the performance gains seem modest, right? So let me ask you, if you could get a 15” MBA today with 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM for $1200 (or a 13” for $1100), would you be more willing to upgrade now? If you would, that is my entire point.

When you have a good-selling/good-performing existing model, you have to give people a reason to want to upgrade. Increased RAM and storage at the same price as your model 4 years ago cost is often a good driver, along with design updates and incremental performance updates.

Apple is struggling at convincing people to spend $100 more on the current model year versus the old model they still sell (and the four year old model they sell for $700 at Walmart) — Mac sales are down and have been down for a long time. Increasing the storage/RAM on the base models would incentivize the funnel.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,690
22,253
Singapore
OK, but you’re torn between that new 15” and sticking with what you’ve got because the performance gains seem modest, right? So let me ask you, if you could get a 15” MBA today with 512GB SSD and 16GB of RAM for $1200 (or a 13” for $1100), would you be more willing to upgrade now? If you would, that is my entire point.
I would still be on the fence.

It's both a combination of the performance gains being modest, and me simply not needing that performance boost. The reality is that my M1 MBA more than suffices for what I do with it, as the main draws of the M1 chip (like being able to run zoom for numerous hours on end while staying cool to the touch) are independent of ram and storage. Heck, I don't even hook up my MBA to an external display, much less 2.

I also don't really need the added storage (I am currently using about half of the 256gb storage on my laptop), and while I guess more ram is always nice to have, I am not convinced of the performance gains I would be experiencing. People talk about the aggressive disk caching, but I am also certain I will end up replacing my MBA long before that ever becomes a reality.

It really comes down to my current M1 MBA still going strong, and it feels like a waste to have it replaced when it looks like it can easily go on for another 2-3 years. I really don't feel like money is an issue for me, and I have no qualms about paying for what I need (ram upgrades and all).
 

taliz

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
100
129
Mac sales are down and have been down for a long time. Increasing the storage/RAM on the base models would incentivize the funnel.
The strange thing is they've been doing this for iPhones and iPads.
They've increased RAM many times over the last few years, also base storage has grown a lot.
But for Mac? Not so much.

I absolutely agree that if you're sitting with a 3-4-5 year old Mac and a new one comes with the same specs it's not very enticing to upgrade.
 

Alpha Centauri

macrumors 65816
Oct 13, 2020
1,255
988
Was the RAM in the 2011 not user upgradeable to 8GB, potentially even 16GB being supported? My 2009 MBP I bought with 4GB and almost immediately fitted 8GB from Crucial back in the day (also an SSD).
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,556
9,699
When I pay a premium price for a premium product I expect it to perform well in the base config.

It's not that Apple is being cheap, it is that you have an unreasonable expectation that base models will cover your use case. I doubt any base config, Mac or PC would handle, well, how you claim to use your computer. Most PCs are still at 16gb base and I would venture to say that Windows would show issue with "hundreds of open tabs across multiple browsers".

I don't expect having to be forced to give upp even more of my hard earned money just to get decent performance for such a basic task as browsing the web.

You do not browse the web like normal folk, I would venture to say that you would be in the 1-2%. Get over it.


I am tapping out of this stupidity.
 
Last edited:

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
I am amused by the supposition that browsing the web is such a basic task, when in fact it is anything but. Firstly, since more and more of many people's routine computer use is web-related, it's clearly a highly central requirement for most, and secondly, the intricacies of security, communication protocols, data density, content diversity and coding complexity make it extremely demanding and resource heavy as an activity.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,056
Gotta be in it to win it
I am amused by the supposition that browsing the web is such a basic task, when in fact it is anything but. Firstly, since more and more of many people's routine computer use is web-related, it's clearly a highly central requirement for most, and secondly, the intricacies of security, communication protocols, data density, content diversity and coding complexity make it extremely demanding and resource heavy as an activity.
Driving is a basic task also. That doesn’t mean that building a fuel efficient car with the myriad of computers and programming isn’t highly intricate. To drive a car one unlocks the car with a key fob enters the car and pushes the start button and then puts the car into drive. One doesn’t have to know about any of the micro programming of the ecu.

In a similar vein, people who browse the web don’t have know about the underpinnings that drive the internet. All they have to do is enter: www.anywebsite.com in their browser of choice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: taliz

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Driving is a basic task also. That doesn’t mean that building a fuel efficient car with the myriad of computers and programming isn’t highly intricate. To drive a car one unlocks the car with a key fob enters the car and pushes the start button and then puts the car into drive. One doesn’t have to know about any of the micro programming of the ecu.

In a similar vein, people who browse the web don’t have know about the underpinnings that drive the internet. All they have to do is enter: www.anywebsite.com in their browser of choice.
The analogy is pretty meaningless in this context, and nobody suggested a web user needs to know how the internet works in order to use it. The point was that stating that browsing is simple and lightweight isn't actually the case.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,056
Gotta be in it to win it
The analogy is pretty meaningless in this context, and nobody suggested a web user needs to know how the internet works in order to use it. The point was that stating that browsing is simple and lightweight isn't actually the case.
That’s the point. Browsing the internet is simple and lightweight to the person who is browsing. Learning the ins and outs of a particular website is analogous to learning how to drive. But that has nothing to do with security or protocols or the underbelly of the internet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: taliz

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
That’s the point. Browsing the internet is simple and lightweight to the person who is browsing. Learning the ins and outs of a particular website is analogous to learning how to drive. But that has nothing to do with security or protocols or the underbelly of the internet.
Again, that wasn't the point I made, and not really even related to it.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,441
1,897
Well you flip-flopped about whether browsing is a basic task or not.
No, I did nothing of the sort.

"I am amused by the supposition that browsing the web is such a basic task, when in fact it is anything but. Firstly, since more and more of many people's routine computer use is web-related, it's clearly a highly central requirement for most, and secondly, the intricacies of security, communication protocols, data density, content diversity and coding complexity make it extremely demanding and resource heavy as an activity."

No flip-flop. Simple statement.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,313
24,056
Gotta be in it to win it
No, I did nothing of the sort.

"I am amused by the supposition that browsing the web is such a basic task, when in fact it is anything but. Firstly, since more and more of many people's routine computer use is web-related, it's clearly a highly central requirement for most, and secondly, the intricacies of security, communication protocols, data density, content diversity and coding complexity make it extremely demanding and resource heavy as an activity."

No flip-flop. Simple statement.
I don't expect having to be forced to give upp even more of my hard earned money just to get decent performance for such a basic task as browsing the web.
So is it or it isn’t?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.