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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
I consider at least part of that as "media creation", but I'll give you the bit regarding data analysis. Although this is probably mostly on an ad-hoc basis, as macOS does not really make a good target run-time for automation anymore.

Isn’t everything media creation if you squint hard enough? You can make this argument if you want to, but what do you gain from it? Regarding automation, what kind of automation do you mean exactly? MacOS is designed to be scriptable, and it comes with plenty of automation tools.




Regarding programming, you mention the native UNIX interface. What part of that are you actually using for doing programming?

A lot of developer tools are designed with UNIX interface in mind. MacOS allows you to use them with no additional configuration or tweaking. Also, Mac developers are a passionate community and the Experience is often better on macOS than other platforms thanks to their efforts.

What I see mostly today in this area is people using something like VS Code to then target Linux containers as their runtime.

Why would I do all that extra stuff if I can just develop and run software directly?

I did not claim that they are not useful for something beyond media consumption or production, but that they are mostly not used beyond that.

That is an extraordinary claim that would require at least some evidence. Do you have any?

And I also think they are not designed for that.

That is an odd statement to say the least. If Macs were not designed for tasks beyond media creation why would Apple go through the trouble of designing advanced matrix coprocessors (which are mostly used in scientific workflows) or high-performance CPUs that excel at code compilation workloads? Neither is of much use for content creation and developing these things costs billions of dollars.
 

Tuck_

macrumors member
Sep 25, 2023
60
227
Improved speed and efficiency is the excuse. But I think it's pretty obvious that the real reason is to con people into point-of-sale upgrades thanks to just-barely enough (or in some cases not enough) base specs coupled with absurd upgrade pricing (which also pushes people further and further up the famous apple pricing ladder) and to "encourage" people to upgrade to a new machine earlier than they'd otherwise would need to.

My 2014 MacBook pro could easily last another 5 years, if I could upgrade the ram and ssd. But I can't, so I'll need to drop substantially more money at some point for a new laptop.

It's pretty gross. But on the other side, no one makes laptops like apple, so the end user doesn't have much choice. The alternatives are poor, so apple can, and does, do what they want.
 

maxolson

macrumors member
Oct 2, 2015
47
123
Why Are There Few Complaints That None Of Apple's Consumer Level Machines Are Upgradable?

So, I just received an email that "I've been warned" that I was going against Apple's community forums and that I would have my "privileges" suspended due to breaking their community standards, lol.

Really...

While asking why Apple Music doesn't shuffle properly, I also mentioned that I won't be buying the new iMac M3 or any of the other new machines because none of them are upgradable. You have to pay $200 per upgrade per step AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE, otherwise, neither the user nor Apple can upgrade them afterward. If you don't believe me, just go through the purchasing process of one of their machines on their site, and read the statement for yourself.

Pardon me for being old, but this goes against everything I understand about computers.

I am amazed that I seldom hear any complaints from anyone that none of the new machines allow for future upgrades, neither by the user nor by Apple once the system is ordered and out the door. Their recommendation is to anticipate all the internal storage, RAM, etc., that you will need and order it as upgrades at the time of purchase. Of course, for a hefty Apple premium of $200 a step. Meaning 256G SSD to 564 will cost $200. Going from 8G RAM to 16 will cost you $200. And on and on. I bought a 2T Samsung external SSD only a few months ago for $100, so this is nuts.

Yet, all I see when it comes to the reviews is people fawning over the many colors the iMacs come in now. Really? When did the thing's decorative compatibility become so much more than what it was meant for? Computing.

Now, anyone... If you can successfully convince this thirty-plus-year Apple former fanboy why his next computer should still be an Apple, bless your tiny little heart. Because I've already found three machines made by name brand PC companies that are faster than the M3, come with 16G of RAM 1T or 2T internal SSDs, for less than the iMac M3 and did I say, they've been clocked in as far speedier than the M3?

I've had it. I don't like being rooked, nor forced into spending money unnecessarily. But it would seem over the past ten years, Apple has increasingly changed its focus from producing machines that just work, to machines that just work only if you're willing to subscribe to more and more iCloud space, Apple Music, or this or that. I want a computer that computes, not turns me into a walking credit card for an already very wealthy company (the second most valuable company in the nation behind Microsoft at the moment). As much as I don't like Windows, having worked on them for decades, I can learn to live with the increased amount of access to computing that I seem to have lost these past few years if need be.
Have you been living under a rock?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
Improved speed and efficiency is the excuse.

To achieve high power efficiency, DRAM on newer Macs are mounted directly onto the SoC package using hundreds of small bump connectors. How do you imagine making that user-upgradeable? You have to sacrifice something: either the power efficiency or upgradeability. Not to mention that trying to make that stuff modular would significantly increase the cost and the size of the device. There is a good reason why GPU RAM is not upgradeable, for example. Since the number of Apple customers interested in power efficiency is considerably higher, the decision is kind of obvious.

SSD is a different matter. There is no technical reason to have it soldered down. I am also certain that Apple could make it user-replaceable if they wanted to, so that’s just their policy.
 

Antoniosmalakia

macrumors 6502
Jun 28, 2021
327
825
To achieve high power efficiency, DRAM on newer Macs are mounted directly onto the SoC package using hundreds of small bump connectors. How do you imagine making that user-upgradeable? You have to sacrifice something: either the power efficiency or upgradeability. Not to mention that trying to make that stuff modular would significantly increase the cost and the size of the device. There is a good reason why GPU RAM is not upgradeable, for example. Since the number of Apple customers interested in power efficiency is considerably higher, the decision is kind of obvious.

SSD is a different matter. There is no technical reason to have it soldered down. I am also certain that Apple could make it user-replaceable if they wanted to, so that’s just their policy.
The SSD should be user replaceable because it is going to fail. I wouldn’t even care if it was a proprietary Apple drive. At least you would have the option to upgrade the drive if you wanted to and not buy a whole new machine.
 

RedWeasel

macrumors 6502
Jul 20, 2010
383
831
Regarding automation, what kind of automation do you mean exactly? MacOS is designed to be scriptable, and it comes with plenty of automation tools.
I mean, just as an example, data analysis that goes beyond ad-hoc jobs. Things you would run "headless" on a server or in a container, or scaled out in a multitude of containers.

Or whatever backend software you can imagine. Apple used to have software like WebObjects and Mac OS X Server and Apple used to sell hardware like the Xserve, but this is apparently not a focus anymore.

So nowadays, macOS is getting used maybe as a "developer laptop", but not as a runtime target.

Why would I do all that extra stuff if I can just develop and run software directly?
I don't know why you would do that. I just know that many people do it, for example to be able run things scaled out in containers, as mentioned above.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
I mean, just as an example, data analysis that goes beyond ad-hoc jobs. Things you would run "headless" on a server or in a container, or scaled out in a multitude of containers.

Or whatever backend software you can imagine. Apple used to have software like WebObjects and Mac OS X Server and Apple used to sell hardware like the Xserve, but this is apparently not a focus anymore.

So nowadays, macOS is getting used maybe as a "developer laptop", but not as a runtime target.


I don't know why you would do that. I just know that many people do it, for example to be able run things scaled out in containers, as mentioned above.

I have a feeling that you are looking at this from the perspective of running a business. Large scale deployment is a very specific topic and requires special solutions that go beyond regular Windows or Linux. We instead are talking about the academic world. It is rarely that one needs to scale things (and if one does, it is not scaled in the same sense as businesses do — we would use specialized cluster deployments for this), we need adaptivity and flexibility. Pretty much every analysis is an ad-hoc job, even large analysis that I have to run on a supercomputer. Many of analyses I have to do are small enough that they are faster on my local Mac than on a large cluster (thanks to superior per-thread performance and dedicated large vector/matrix processing units on Apple hardware).

And yes, Macs are obviously developer machines, regardless of the context. Apple does not make any hardware for large-scale deployment. Still, Mac being a Unix machine means I can copy my analysis pipeline to a supercomputer and launch it there with no additional setup.


The SSD should be user replaceable because it is going to fail. I wouldn’t even care if it was a proprietary Apple drive. At least you would have the option to upgrade the drive if you wanted to and not buy a whole new machine.

Everything is going to fail at some point. The question is when. Apple seems confident enough about reliability of their SSDs as should be evident from their extended warranty offerings. You don't let people insure a computer for ~35 USD per year if you expect an expensive SSD failure after 5 years.
 

ApplesAreSweet&Sour

macrumors 68000
Sep 18, 2018
1,962
3,583
Euro-Avengers to the rescue!
image.jpeg


Jokes aside -It seems that E.U. legislators are about to enforce a slew of right to repair legislation that would, at the very least, force ban sales of all personal computers that cannot be repaired post purchase.

We're already seeing Apple react to this by providing not only instructions on how to repair certain MacBooks but now also the tools and parts to do so https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/29/apple-self-service-repair-m3-macs/

So is it too far out to expect the E.U. to force the PC industry to allow consumers to freely upgrade their personal computers post purchase?

Yes, it's just speculation. But whether you're replacing a part because it's broken or because you want your computer to operate using the same type of part but with higher/better specs is completely arbitrary on a technical level.

Obviously, the discussion of whether this breaks warranty or who holds the responsibility for consumers breaking their personal computers by repairing/upgrading them is equally valid and of great concern to the maker/seller of the products.

But if a consumer can buy a MacBook Pro with 256GB internal storage and buy the parts to repair said 256GB machine, while the exact same product is also available with 512GB, 1TB, or 2TB of internal storage

-Why shouldn't the consumer be able to repair/upgrade to an SSD with a higher capacity? If all the specifications of the higher capacity drive are to Apple's requirement and the drive is sold by Apple?

Blocking consumers from upgrading their devices post purchase definitely seems like the kind of gate-keeping the E.U. would argument against. If not in the name of consumer rights then surely in the name of e-waste and to disincentivize consumers from buying new hardware just because their current setup is soldered and digitally locked to a low capacity internal harddrive.

I see the E.U. fixing this issue to some extent within the next 5-10 years. It's a small loss for Apple and other computer makers compared to the big wins for E.U. governments and citizens, lowering emissions and lowering costs on computer hardware for both the private and public sectors.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
I see the E.U. fixing this issue to some extent within the next 5-10 years. It's a small loss for Apple and other computer makers compared to the big wins for E.U. governments and citizens, lowering emissions and lowering costs on computer hardware for both the private and public sectors.

It all depends on the wording of the initiative. Preventing companies from imposing arbitrary restrictions that pessimise the customer is good and right. At the same time, passing arbitrary rules that stint technological innovation and force manufacturers to build inferior products in the name of some dubious ideology is not that good. And I don't really trust the EU legislators (or any legislator) on this, since a lot of the proposed laws seem to be very far from the technological reality in my eyes.

Let me give you an example. Imagine the law specifically mandates that RAM should be modular. This would immediately rule out usage of high-performance or energy-efficient solutions which are not modular for engineering reasons. It would also constraint the form factor and device size. And it would pretty much kill important innovations like in-memory processing (that will be required for future ML applications) or more integrated solutions. But what's more, how would this kind of regulation even work? How do you define what "RAM" is? Does it means that GPU memory also needs to be modular? What about CPU cache memory? What about RAM used as cache on consume SSDs? Where do you stop here?

Or let's say you mandate that persistent storage (SSD/HDD) should be replaceable. How do you define that? What if some manufacturer comes up with a new storage system that is super fast and super durable, but making it modular would impose a major additional cost in terms of money, power, and footprint? Dows this legislation also mandate that all parts have to use industry standard interfaces? What if you have a product that cannot be reasonably supported using a standard interface? Does this means such a product would be illegal?

Here is an example of a legislation I would support:

1) If a device uses industry standard internal connectors, the respective equipment should be user-upgradeable and user-replaceable
2) If a computer model is sold in X different configurations, the user has the right to have it's machine upgraded or replaced to a different configuration for a fee at any time while these configurations are on the market
3) Reasonable minimal device support timeframes (e.g. 8 years from purchase) where a repair cannot be denied

Another legislation I would love to see is this (essentially what Apple does with AppleCare):

1) Every manufacturer is obliged to offer a hardware insurance, capped to some reasonable price point (e.g. 3% of the original device price per year)
2) A user who intends to use the machine past the official warranty period has the option to purchase this insurance as subscription; if the device fails it is the responsibility of the original manufacturer to repair or replace it free of charge
3) The hardware insurance is valid until canceled, at least up to certain duration as mandated by the law (e.g. 8 years from the original device purchase)
4) A user who does not purchase the insurance is not entitled to a repair outside of the warranty period (it is up to the manufacturer to offer this as an additional service)

What I like about the second one is that it gives the manufacturers incentive for designing repairable and reliable hardware, does not restrict innovation, and lets the customers support each other solidarily.

Of course, such legislation has no chance of passing, because what most Right to Repair advocates care about is low cost of ownership and not sustainability of innovation.
 

leifp

macrumors 6502
Feb 8, 2008
388
372
Canada
If you’re bored, read on below the dashed lines, but I’m going to start with the tl;dr - the sole use I would have for an upgradeable system is GPU replacement.

——————

As someone with a Windows desktop PC and a ASi MBPro, I’ll admit that the Windows systems are wasteful for me (the only component to get ”regular” updates is the GPU) and NOISY as all get-out and that I’d pay Apple prices for an Apple experience even with it just being a gaming PC. They are exactly as powerful as I can afford at any given time, though. E.g. I replaced the 3070 with a 4070 last year mainly because I ended up with a 3070 since 3080s were basically impossible to find at any price and when they could be found… *makes choking noises* The fact that the 4070 is equivalent to a 3080, with more RAM, and 2/3 power draw made it a near no-brainer for my 4K gaming rig.

Also, some irony appears for me about all of those who rage against Apple having “pro” computers with 8GB RAM… my work (I.e. the “pro” part) can be done with laughable ease in a base Mac mini. But that’s me: my professional use of a computer can be addressed by base models. It’s my play (that includes photography and its ancillary editing methods on a Mac) that costs me all my money. And then I have to pay extra to have a wind turbine firing off while I game? Thanks…

If the Mac Pro allowed GPU upgrades, it would be on my list (but WTF, I have no need whatsoever for any other element of its capacities) and I am seriously considering the Corsair One systems for my next gaming computer…

Having grown up at a time when a new computer cost about $5k (Canadian; inflation corrected: about $11k) and the average lifespan for a desktop computer was 3 years (for work, not for tinkering or children or those whose needs never scaled, like my uncle who’s still on a powerhouse PC from the turn of the millennium) I am not one of those who belabours spending $5k now for a computer that “just works” for 5-7 years without a hiccup and that I can then sell on or donate to happy recipients who can continue to use it for years (my 2014 iMac 5K is doing just that; I used it happily for 7 years and it’s a school computer for teens at present).

Right now those who spend under $1k for a new build that they tinker with for a decade are choking on their suds and rage… YMWV!
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
the sole use I would have for an upgradeable system is GPU replacement.

That that's very fair. I think we need to have space for different design paradigms and systems. Replaceable GPUs have their advantages, but they come at a price of a slow memory connection between the different parts of the system (which might matter less or more for different use cases). We should not rush into outright banning some types of systems just because of our personal preferences.
 

Lift Bar

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2023
177
371
This is the fallacy.
People simply don’t buy a Mac at all, rather than get miniscule RAM and NAND.
Some buy minimum spec.
Some bite the bullet and upgrade the Mac to the lowest they believe they can make work.
Some don’t buy a Mac at all.

And that last category is rather substantial, and are conveniently ignored in the quote above.

Even among those that do buy Macs, Apples pricing policies on RAM and storage are clearly costing them goodwill. We know we are getting skinned alive on those, and even among those that accept it, nobody likes it.

I understand that a lot of posters here are shareholders that will vigorously defend anything they believe increases Apples profitability, but the problem in this case is that Apples pricing policies for this may actually reduce profits. Apples RAM and NAND are dirt cheap. They could easily double the amount at totally negligeable cost. But that would gain them more buyers in total, and they would still get upgrade money from the category that like to have a no-worry margin in their computer purchases. And having more buyers also means more profit from Apples services. (Not to mention, less disgruntled customers.)

I think Apple are shooting themselves in the foot, by having too simplified spreadsheets in their modelling.
I understand your frustration with Apple's pricing on RAM and storage upgrades. Yes, it stands to reason that potential buyers might be deterred by the high upgrade costs (like me). However, Apple has thoroughly considered this and concluded that their current approach is most profitable. Of course, they use spreadsheets to do so, but it's exceedingly complicated. It's not about spite; it's about business.
 
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Lift Bar

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2023
177
371
The SSD should be user replaceable because it is going to fail. I wouldn’t even care if it was a proprietary Apple drive. At least you would have the option to upgrade the drive if you wanted to and not buy a whole new machine.
Apple realizes this. Which is why they don’t sell upgradeable consumer-level computers.
 
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RedWeasel

macrumors 6502
Jul 20, 2010
383
831
We instead are talking about the academic world. It is rarely that one needs to scale things (and if one does, it is not scaled in the same sense as businesses do — we would use specialized cluster deployments for this), we need adaptivity and flexibility.
But the specialized cluster would most likely be something running Linux I assume. That was kind of my point (or part of my point).
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,319
19,336
But the specialized cluster would most likely be something running Linux I assume. That was kind of my point (or part of my point).

Yes, and for most part you can run the pipelines unmodified. At least for what I do. I’d have more trouble if my main machine was a Windows system.
 
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wonderings

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2021
680
576
Unless people banded together in the MILLIONS and stopped buying Apple products unless they made them upgradeable again nothing is going to happen unfortunately.

I would love to jump ship from Apple, and use something else. The problem is I can't stand using Windows for anything other than gaming. I used Windows 11 all last year at work and it was a nightmare for letting me work how I want to work. So while I would love Apple to have the very basics upgradeable at least, I am willing to forgo that to keep using MacOS and the whole Apple eco system. If something better came along I would be the first to seriously consider dropping all my Mac products for something else.
 

MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,117
3,738
Lancashire UK
Where the heck have you been for ten years if you haven't noticed people complaining that Apple products - ALL Apple products, not just Macs - can't be upgraded?

And yeah...don't go questioning the ways of Apple on the official Apple community forum. They'll quickly ban you for saying anything that even remotely questions the status quo. That's why I left.
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68000
Oct 15, 2022
1,921
2,768
This is the wrong attitude. People in massive numbers yield plenty of power. The problem is all of the people who aren’t on the same page. This company is colluding, so we buyers should collude as well. Collude to not buy 8GB RAM base models, collude to not buy 256GB of SSD, and collude to say no if Apple doesn’t make them both upgradable.

People do have power. If Apple can make more money selling more Macs to buyers who want to upgrade they should and would if otherwise everyone colludes to not buy. Just create buyers collusion groups in mass. It is possible but for the weak who rather depart from their money than have desires.
Just avoid buying Apple. No one has time to organize over trivial things in life. Apple is a business not some government. I haven’t bought Apple work station in over a decade. But I love the MBP, and I have no need to upgrade a laptop.
 

heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
831
1,309
Denver, CO
This is the wrong attitude. People in massive numbers yield plenty of power. The problem is all of the people who aren’t on the same page. This company is colluding, so we buyers should collude as well. Collude to not buy 8GB RAM base models, collude to not buy 256GB of SSD, and collude to say no if Apple doesn’t make them both upgradable.

People do have power. If Apple can make more money selling more Macs to buyers who want to upgrade they should and would if otherwise everyone colludes to not buy. Just create buyers collusion groups in mass. It is possible but for the weak who rather depart from their money than have desires.
You seem to have this all figured out — where can we join the buyer collusion group you’ve created to show the way to the willing and embolden the weak? \s
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,031
11,571
I've been buying Macs since the 1990s. 20, 30 years ago you could easily pay a month's wages for that upgradeable Mac. Prices have been falling dramatically for years now, relative to inflation. The cost of a new base-model MacBook has been right around $1000 for 15 years. At the same time, they've become much much more reliable, faster and have like triple the battery life. So no, I'm not getting all up in arms because I have to think ahead a little and spec out the memory and storage space I will need and spend (gasp) $200 to double the base model RAM or SSD.
 

tornadowrangler

macrumors regular
Sep 5, 2020
140
256
The word "computer" can have multiple meanings, just like most words. For example, when we say "animal," sometimes we mean it to include humans and sometimes we mean it in a way that excludes humans. Context makes it clear what you mean. For example, "the prisoners were treated like animals."

Same thing with the word "computer". Sometimes we say "computer" to include devices like iPhones, iPads, and even the stuff inside a washing machine, and sometimes we say to mean the thing with a CPU, a mother board, RAM, a hard drive, etc. Context makes it pretty clear which people mean.

So, when someone says, "A Mac really isn't a computer anymore", it is clear what they mean by context. Of course they know it is still something that computes and does calculations and does what computers do. They just mean it doesn't have the characteristics that personal computers have had for a long time. If you disagree, then you would just have to say that what a "computer" is has changed in the minds of most people. Either way, the only thing to really agree or disagree about is if that is a bad thing or not.

So, a non-upgradable computer is still a computer, but so is an abacus. Either way, Macs are DIFFERENT now than they used to be. And I personally would prefer something I could keep longer and upgrade over time, the way Macs USED to be.
 
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