M3: boot from an external SSD? That’d be feasable ? ( vs. a audio workstation)

[streetfunk]

i just stumbled over this post:

from this thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/i-spent-2-months-on-a-base-m2-mac-mini.2420373/

Currently using a 2010 Mac Pro. My projects aren’t too huge either tracks-wise, but I run some orchestral and drum kit samplers that need a little more memory headroom.

What I’ll probably do is get a 16 or 24 GB RAM M2/M3 Mac Mini with the 256GB SSD and boot/run from a Thunderbolt 4 SSD. Cuz screw you Apple. Not paying $800 for 2TB of your ripoff storage.

This would work ?

You just "boot" the whole OS from an external SSD and have just ALL Audio apps installed there ?
How likely is it that this will work for the next years ? ....vs. MacOS and what is allowed to do.
are there any drawbacks ? ( we talk here a desktop M3Mac. No need to move anything)

Is there any reason to NOT do so vs. a audio workstation ? (studio work, no live on stage or so)

 

[Krevnik]

It should work, but the internal SSD still holds onto a volume that has security settings for the external drive still, and can't boot the external drive if that volume is deleted or goes missing (internal SSD failure). It's also possible that this configuration can be a little buggy. It's been a couple years since I last tried to keep track of the issues with external booting on Apple Silicon Macs. The first year or so was a mess if I remember.

I'd probably just leave the OS on the internal drive, but put all the space-consuming stuff on the SSD, encrypted with FileVault.

 

[eicca]

It should work, but the internal SSD still holds onto a volume that has security settings for the external drive still, and can't boot the external drive if that volume is deleted or goes missing (internal SSD failure). It's also possible that this configuration can be a little buggy. It's been a couple years since I last tried to keep track of the issues with external booting on Apple Silicon Macs. The first year or so was a mess if I remember.

I'd probably just leave the OS on the internal drive, but put all the space-consuming stuff on the SSD, encrypted with FileVault.

Could one still plausibly move the external boot drive to another M machine if the internal SSD craps or the machine gets stolen?

 

[Krevnik]

Could one still plausibly move the external boot drive to another M machine if the internal SSD craps or the machine gets stolen?

The drive itself will move along with the data, so you don’t lose your data, but it will be missing the “blessing” of the system. In order to boot an external drive, there has to be LocalPolicy settings for the drive on the internal SSD.

As far as I’m aware, the only way to create the LocalPolicy settings is by installing the OS on the drive. So you’d have to reinstall the OS after moving the drive to a new machine to make it bootable again. If there is any way to do it otherwise, it’d have to be done using Startup Security Utility.

What makes an external disk bootable?

This has changed greatly over the last few versions of macOS, and differs between different types of Mac. Here’s an outline.

eclecticlight.co

 

[streetfunk]

I'd probably just leave the OS on the internal drive, but put all the space-consuming stuff on the SSD, encrypted with FileVault.

This sounds interesting.

I´d like to have more infos on this.
Do you by coinsidence have some links, or whats the terms i have to search for ?

I mean, if i could manage to handle this accordingly (as the computer idiot i am), that sounds like a perfect solution for me.

 

[gilby101]

1) I would get 512GB internal because it will be a bit faster than a 256GB as well as giving you a bit more flexibility.
2) Keep macOS and all your apps and settings on the internal.
3) Put all your projects on the external SSD - just need to tell your apps where the data is stored. All this will be app dependent.
4) If you want the external to have the same performance as an Apple internal you won't save as much money as you hope - some but not lots. Big saving is if you are satisfied with a more modest Thunderbolt enclosure and SSD.

 

[eicca]

The drive itself will move along with the data, so you don’t lose your data, but it will be missing the “blessing” of the system. In order to boot an external drive, there has to be LocalPolicy settings for the drive on the internal SSD.

As far as I’m aware, the only way to create the LocalPolicy settings is by installing the OS on the drive. So you’d have to reinstall the OS after moving the drive to a new machine to make it bootable again. If there is any way to do it otherwise, it’d have to be done using Startup Security Utility.

What makes an external disk bootable?

This has changed greatly over the last few versions of macOS, and differs between different types of Mac. Here’s an outline.

eclecticlight.co

Freaking Apple. Screw them.

 

[Mike Boreham]

Freaking Apple. Screw them.

External booting is now quite reliable on silicon macs, and you can do what you want to do.

The posts above point out that an external bootable disk is not a reliable back up because it will not work if the internal disk has died. Not a very common experience and anyway if you back up the bootable external disk you will be able to recover.

 

[eicca]

External booting is now quite reliable on silicon macs, and you can do what you want to do.

The posts above point out that an external bootable disk is not a reliable back up because it will not work if the internal disk has died. Not a very common experience and anyway if you back up the bootable external disk you will be able to recover.

Well that’s the whole point, I want to get away from the internal drive altogether.

I guess the folly in that thinking is it doesn’t matter what size that internal drive is so I don’t have to pay Apple extra.

I just hate being under their noose all the freaking time.

 

[Mike Boreham]

Afraid I don't really understand why you think you are under the noose!

You can buy smallest internal and run off large external.

 

[BrianBaughn]

I haven't found a folder of DAW-related files I couldn't move to an external drive using a symbolic link on my internal boot drive.

 

[streetfunk]

1) I would get 512GB internal because it will be a bit faster than a 256GB as well as giving you a bit more flexibility.
2) Keep macOS and all your apps and settings on the internal.
3) Put all your projects on the external SSD - just need to tell your apps where the data is stored. All this will be app dependent.

Thats what i have.
"Then", doing so, is a 1TB SSD (internal) on the verge to be enough.
I´m ok buying a 1TB SSD (internal).
The upmargin to the 2TB is what bothers me.
(yeah, i´d never take a 256SSD for my main machine !
probably even not a 512GB SSD either.

It´s for me, as has been posted in the other thread ( ilinked in my first post):
IF i have to reach for that 2TB SSD, is it not that much more $ and i can take a Max.
Which i would do much likely.
Or in reverse, i´d never spend so much money on a "small" M3mini as it will come with a 2TB SSD.
The upmargin to the 2TB SSD is too much, to just take a "small" mini

 

[streetfunk]

using a symbolic link

so it seems i need to learn what "symlink" is and how it works/how to install ?

I´m new to this.
I will have a look next week.
( now i´m completly occupied)

 

[FreakinEurekan]

1) I would get 512GB internal because it will be a bit faster than a 256GB as well as giving you a bit more flexibility.
2) Keep macOS and all your apps and settings on the internal.
3) Put all your projects on the external SSD - just need to tell your apps where the data is stored. All this will be app dependent.
4) If you want the external to have the same performance as an Apple internal you won't save as much money as you hope - some but not lots. Big saving is if you are satisfied with a more modest Thunderbolt enclosure and SSD.

This is exactly what I did. 512 internal is PLENTY for OS and applications. 4TB NVMe with Thunderbolt enclosure cost about $300, that’s where all my “data” lives (Photos library,Media library, etc.) Heck of a deal.

 

[eicca]

External booting is now quite reliable on silicon macs, and you can do what you want to do.

The posts above point out that an external bootable disk is not a reliable back up because it will not work if the internal disk has died. Not a very common experience and anyway if you back up the bootable external disk you will be able to recover.

Here’s a question, can I move the bootable disk between M-series machines and boot it without having to jump any hoops?

Say I upgrade Mac Minis. Can I just plug the boot drive into the new one? That would save so much time not having to use Migration Assistant.

 

[Mike Boreham]

Here’s a question, can I move the bootable disk between M-series machines and boot it without having to jump any hoops?

Say I upgrade Mac Minis. Can I just plug the boot drive into the new one? That would save so much time not having to use Migration Assistant.

I don’t know for certain but I strongly suspect not.

If the answer was yes, ie a bootable external could boot any other silicon mac, then a thief could boot your mac from their external. This would be a severe security issue and why external booting has hoops to jump through so that it only boots the mac it was created on.

I only have one Mac currently but there must be plenty here with two who could try this easily enough.

Unless you intend to always boot your new mac from the external I dont see that a transferable external saves much time since you will want to put it on the internal at some point. I haven’t found Migration Assistant unduly slow. It isn’t as though I upgrade Macs every week.

You may learn more from this article.

 

[gilby101]

Here’s a question, can I move the bootable disk between M-series machines and boot it without having to jump any hoops?

Adding to what @Mike Boreham has said.
I have not done this (I only have one Mx Mac), but I believe it is possible. There are hoops to jump through.

To get an understanding of the boot process and hoops you will need to jump, have a read of these from Howard Oakley:

M1 Macs radically change boot and recovery

Unlike Intel Macs, M1 models always start booting from internal SSD, and can only offer full Recovery from there too. This has benefits, and some drawbacks too.

eclecticlight.co

Booting macOS on Apple silicon: LocalPolicy

To understand what might go wrong when trying to boot an Apple silicon Mac from an external disk, start with LocalPolicy: what it is, and how it works.

eclecticlight.co

What makes an external disk bootable?

This has changed greatly over the last few versions of macOS, and differs between different types of Mac. Here’s an outline.

eclecticlight.co

Startup and Recovery Modes on M1 and M2 Macs

From Diagnostics Mode to Terminal, a full account of the features available to Apple silicon models, how to engage them, and navigation.

eclecticlight.co

Clearly you would want to test this beforehand. Otherwise it would be quicker just to start afresh and recover from your TM backup (with Migration Assistant) onto the new Mac.

 

[Mike Boreham]

Adding to what @Mike Boreham has said.
I have not done this (I only have one Mx Mac), but I believe it is possible. There are hoops to jump through.

To get an understanding of the boot process and hoops you will need to jump, have a read of these from Howard Oakley:

M1 Macs radically change boot and recovery

Unlike Intel Macs, M1 models always start booting from internal SSD, and can only offer full Recovery from there too. This has benefits, and some drawbacks too.

eclecticlight.co

Booting macOS on Apple silicon: LocalPolicy

To understand what might go wrong when trying to boot an Apple silicon Mac from an external disk, start with LocalPolicy: what it is, and how it works.

eclecticlight.co

What makes an external disk bootable?

This has changed greatly over the last few versions of macOS, and differs between different types of Mac. Here’s an outline.

eclecticlight.co

Startup and Recovery Modes on M1 and M2 Macs

From Diagnostics Mode to Terminal, a full account of the features available to Apple silicon models, how to engage them, and navigation.

eclecticlight.co

Clearly you would want to test this beforehand. Otherwise it would be quicker just to start afresh and recover from your TM backup (with Migration Assistant) onto the new Mac.

The third one, “What makes an external disk bootable“, seems to say that the OP can do what he wants, boot any silicon mac from a single bootable external, but I may have misinterpreted, and it may be that this requires a lot of hoops. After reading Howard’s replies in the lengthy comments after that article, I am back to thinking the OP is out of luck. I have not seen Howard as frustrated as that in responding to two people having a hard time understanding the new ways.

One sentence in the comments struck me as particularly appropriate:

”With Apple, it’s either go with the flow, or go to something else. As the alternatives are far worse, I just stick with it, and the rewards are worth it.
Howard”

 

[Krevnik]

The third one, “What makes an external disk bootable“, seems to say that the OP can do what he wants, boot any silicon mac from a single bootable external, but I may have misinterpreted, and it may be that this requires a lot of hoops.

The key though is that the boot process validates policy from the internal drive before the external drive OS is loaded. Without that policy in place, it won't boot to my understanding.

So I can't just setup a drive on one machine, take it to another, and go. You must use Startup Security Utility to "bless" the external as an accepted OS that the machine will boot by configuring the security policy the machine holds related to the external drive. So to configure this, the machine needs to already be configured and usable. But at least in principle, every machine that has a LocalPolicy configured for the drive can boot the drive, but it's a pain if you have more than a couple machines.

But I'm just not really sure what a bootable external solves compared to a non-bootable external in this situation. Unless you have a ton of content that must live in ~/Library or /Library, which is a depressing thought.