No Bootcamp on ARM Macs

[AppleSmack]

Dealbreaker for me.

According to Ars Technica:

Here’s what’s happening to Boot Camp amid the Apple silicon transition

Virtualization might not be enough for gamers, so what about Windows?

arstechnica.com

"We've learned that Boot Camp will not work on Apple silicon-based Macs. This will surely be a surprise to almost no one, of course. You can't expect to just run a game natively out of the box on a totally different architecture.

However, Boot Camp will continue to be supported on Intel-based Macs in macOS 11 Big Sur. And while Apple says the transition to Apple silicon from Intel will take about two years, Apple has said that it still has plans to launch new Intel-based Macs that have not even been announced yet. The company also committed to some form of long-term support for Intel Macs."

 

[teidon]

You of course cannot run Intel-Windows on ARM processor. But more troublesome is that in The Talk Show Remote From WWDC 2020, With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak they said you cannot boot to other OSes. That means no ARM-Linux or ARM-Windows on your ARM-Mac. Apple wants you to instead virtualise them, but I don't understand why they would make such a limitation.

 

[hwojtek]

The Talk Show Remote From WWDC 2020, With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak they said you cannot boot to other OSes.

Could you give a timestamp? As I understand from https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/25/apple-silicon-macs-new-startup-recovery-options/ there will be a reduced-security mode allowing users to boot other OSes (which would make sense, as no other MacOSes will be available anyway).

 

[teidon]

Could you give a timestamp?

... we are not direct booting an alternate operating system ...

Of course that could mean that Apple isn't providing any Bootcamp like functionality to help users install other OSes, but it does sound a lot like booting to other OSes isn't possible.

 

[leman]

Apple wants you to instead virtualise them, but I don't understand why they would make such a limitation.

Probably because that would require them to divulge a lot of details about their hardware platform? Also, it is possible that they are using some sort of custom boot sequence. Drivers alone are a huge mess.

 

[StellarVixen]

No, no and no, as long as there are VMs in cloud, this will not be a dealbreaker for me.

 

[thisismyusername]

but I don't understand why they would make such a limitation.

The opportunity cost of allowing users to directly boot into other ARM operating systems is probably just too high. They have a ton of work to do right now to ensure this transition is as smooth as possible and I'd prefer they keep everyone focused on making sure MacOS runs good on a Mac. Plus, Windows on ARM isn't really much of a thing yet to consider so any bootcamp they did would basically just be for Linux.

Craig's right in what he said in that video. Virtualization has gotten very good. A lot of the things that required people to bootcamp before can now be done in a VM. Sure, there will always be things that require your OS to be running on bare metal but the amount of people who will actually need to directly boot into Linux or Windows on a Mac is small enough to not bother. They made the right decision here.

 

[velocityg4]

I would think the biggest obstacle to Boot Camp is Apple's ARM chip. As they would have to develop drivers for Linux and Windows. Without that there is no graphical acceleration and at best you would be able to use generic drivers for basic functionality. Unless Apple is willing to build those drivers or provide the information the open source community needs to make drivers. I do not see it happening.

Intel worked because they are pretty much standard PCs. Maybe some mildly tweaked GPUs or custom trackpads. But nothing which needs the level of work as creating and supporting a GPU driver. It may be viable on Macs with discrete GPUs. Assuming they still use discrete GPU in some models.

Even with Intel Macs. There was no Windows right away. It was not until there was a concerted effort to get it working. That Apple relented and released an easier solution. Although given how quickly Apple released their solution afterward. It seems like they had something all along and just wanted to see if anybody could crack it.

Windows ARM may be more feasible in a few years. If there is enough demand. Also, if MS makes Windows ARM available for end users to purchase. Hopefully, it is just a matter of. There is no Bootcamp because there is no Windows ARM available for purchase.

 

[hwojtek]

I would think the biggest obstacle to Boot Camp is Apple's ARM chip. As they would have to develop drivers for Linux and Windows.

Linux and Windows run happily on generic ARMs.

 

[bryce13950]

It's a real shame that this is going away. The day after they announced this I bought a new Mac to future proof myself for the next few years, so hopefully in 5 years there will be a larger adoption of arm windows, and a reason for bootcamp to come back.

 

[Haeven]

Let's not be too hard on Apple. They're Apple! I am optimistic that Apple could make Windows games/apps run on Macs even with ARM somehow. (Rosetta 2 or another solution maybe.) I think it's possible.

When Apple wants to make a gaming Mac, let's not say too much that they won't get funding, and they'll never succeed. We can advise them, definitely. There are some small obstacles. But let's not discourage them. It is doable and desired, in my opinion.

You know what would be cool? If "Rosetta 2 = you can now play any Windows 10 game on Mac."
Edit: Or Parallels working well.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Meh. I haven't even thought about BootCamp in years.

 

[Haeven]

Meh. I haven't even thought about BootCamp in years.

I need it for now, for gaming.

 

[AppleSmack]

You of course cannot run Intel-Windows on ARM processor. But more troublesome is that in The Talk Show Remote From WWDC 2020, With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak they said you cannot boot to other OSes. That means no ARM-Linux or ARM-Windows on your ARM-Mac. Apple wants you to instead virtualise them, but I don't understand why they would make such a limitation.

Even if Bootcamp supported Windows ARM, I think all the programs you install would still have to be built for ARM - I expect that many developers won't bother with that unless there's a wider shift to Windows ARM in the PC market.

 

[AppleSmack]

The opportunity cost of allowing users to directly boot into other ARM operating systems is probably just too high. They have a ton of work to do right now to ensure this transition is as smooth as possible and I'd prefer they keep everyone focused on making sure MacOS runs good on a Mac. Plus, Windows on ARM isn't really much of a thing yet to consider so any bootcamp they did would basically just be for Linux.

Craig's right in what he said in that video. Virtualization has gotten very good. A lot of the things that required people to bootcamp before can now be done in a VM. Sure, there will always be things that require your OS to be running on bare metal but the amount of people who will actually need to directly boot into Linux or Windows on a Mac is small enough to not bother. They made the right decision here.

If they are committing to ARM, I agree that they've made the right decision not to support Bootcamp at this stage. It probably means they'll never support Bootcamp even in the future, as I can't imagine any demand for running Windows ARM in the real world where Intel dominates.

I'm all for ARM if it brings better performance and value for the end user. Sadly, many Apple decisions are motivated by bringing more value for Apple themselves.

 

[Yebubbleman]

You of course cannot run Intel-Windows on ARM processor. But more troublesome is that in The Talk Show Remote From WWDC 2020, With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak they said you cannot boot to other OSes. That means no ARM-Linux or ARM-Windows on your ARM-Mac. Apple wants you to instead virtualise them, but I don't understand why they would make such a limitation.

Their attitude on Windows for x86 on Intel Macs was the exact same at this point in 2005. And that stance persisted well after Intel Macs started shipping. It wasn't until three models (iMacs, 15" MacBook Pro, and Mac mini) had made the switch that Apple had reversed course and put out the firmware update to add the BIOS emulation layer to their UEFI and the public beta of the Boot Camp Assistant.