Surface Book not twice as fast, it's THREE times faster than MBP for gaming

[leman]

Look at the chart in the original post!
They are comparing the integrated chipset Iris 6100 to a full mobile Geforce GPU!
You don't compare an integrated chipset to a full mobile GPU - it is just not the same!
The comparison is flawed from the beginning - Ignore this thread! LOL

Why not? I don't get your logic here. Of course you can compare the GPU performance of two machines of similar form factor and price point. Its just that one happens to contain a faster GPU. Besides, Iris 6100 outperforms a bunch of discrete mobile GPUs.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Why not? I don't get your logic here. Of course you can compare the GPU performance of two machines of similar form factor and price point. Its just that one happens to contain a faster GPU. Besides, Iris 6100 outperforms a bunch of discrete mobile GPUs.

However the price points aren't similar to get the dGPU and a not great i7 15W Dual core processor and a decent amount of storage is the same price as the high end 15 inch rMBP that will smoke it in every benchmark, and the rMBP still has to get it's new GPU and Skylake updates.

 

[maflynn]

The comparison is flawed from the beginning - Ignore this thread! LOL

That's Apple's fault for ignoring the dGPU in the 13" MBP. Clearly the form factor and use case for this machine is in direct competition with the 13" MBP. Yes, a dGPU will always smoke the iGPU and that's why MS is pushing this comparison.

However the price points aren't similar

You're 100% right and that's the issue, you're paying too much for a dual core computer that acts like a tablet. I think as I've done my research and help vet out my opinion on this, that MS needed to have a lower price point. Its hard to justify 2k for a 13" laptop, at least for me it is.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

That's Apple's fault for ignoring the dGPU in the 13" MBP. Clearly the form factor and use case for this machine is in direct competition with the 13" MBP. Yes, a dGPU will always smoke the iGPU and that's why MS is pushing this comparison.


You're 100% right and that's the issue, you're paying too much for a dual core computer that acts like a tablet. I think as I've done my research and help vet out my opinion on this, that MS needed to have a lower price point. Its hard to justify 2k for a 13" laptop, at least for me it is.

To be fair the only way MS got a dGPU in their thin light 13 inch laptop was to have it in a separate section with all the other components in the screen, any dGPU worth the effort just won't go in the thermal design of the rMBP. Apple don't make this type of product and I understand why, I can just see the issues they are going to have with returns and repairs etc in a couple of years time.

 

[maflynn]

I also see apple moving away from the dGPU. They've transitioned the MBP off the dGPU with the exception of the top of the line model, and even now the iMac is iGPU only again with the exception of the 5k model.

 

[lowendlinux]

I also see apple moving away from the dGPU. They've transitioned the MBP off the dGPU with the exception of the top of the line model, and even now the iMac is iGPU only again with the exception of the 5k model.

I could see that especially if the can get FCP to perform well. Apples not been all that great at dGPU over the last couple years

 

[maflynn]

I could see that especially if the can get FCP to perform well. Apples not been all that great at dGPU over the last couple years

No, and when you say couple, you're being overly generous. Their dGPU troubles started around 2009 (or 2008?) All for different reasons but that doesn't really offer much solace to those affected.

While i think the iGPU for the 21" iMac is not sufficient, and I'm getting the 5k flavor, I do worry about their track record, though my 2012 rMBP is going strong (knocks on wood).

 

[lowendlinux]

No, and when you say couple, you're being overly generous. Their dGPU troubles started around 2009 (or 2008?) All for different reasons but that doesn't really offer much solace to those affected.

While i think the iGPU for the 21" iMac is not sufficient, and I'm getting the 5k flavor, I do worry about their track record, though my 2012 rMBP is going strong (knocks on wood).

There's probably enough cooling back there to keep it from cooking itself provided you're not gaming

 

[jblagden]

Installing OS X on a non-Apple computer does violate Apple's EULA, but at the end of the day it is not exactly like the Apple Police are running around enforcing this. There are entire web sites dedicated to this and Apple does not seem to bother them. I think as long as you are not building these "Hackintosh" machines then selling them, Apple does not care much.

I’ve read that in Canada EULA’s aren’t equivalent to laws and that violating a EULA isn’t a violation of Canadian law. Is that also true in the US? Or is that only in Canada?

 

[Weaselboy]

I’ve read that in Canada EULA’s aren’t equivalent to laws and that violating a EULA isn’t a violation of Canadian law. Is that also true in the US? Or is that only in Canada?

In the US a EULA is typically viewed as a contract between in this case Apple and the end user, and Apple's remedy for a violation would be a civil proceeding against you for violating that contract. Beyond that, I am not aware of any particular criminal law violation that could be applied to to an end user violating a EULA like this.

There are US criminal statutes that make it a crime for me to say sell bootleg CDs of Adobe Photoshop out of the back of my van, but that is different that the simple EULA violation we are talking about here.

 

[jblagden]

In the US a EULA is typically viewed as a contract between in this case Apple and the end user, and Apple's remedy for a violation would be a civil proceeding against you for violating that contract. Beyond that, I am not aware of any particular criminal law violation that could be applied to to an end user violating a EULA like this.

There are US criminal statutes that make it a crime for me to say sell bootleg CDs of Adobe Photoshop out of the back of my van, but that is different that the simple EULA violation we are talking about here.

Oh, okay. So if Apple sued someone for making a Hackintosh, they’d sue them on the grounds of breach of contract. But it’s extremely unlikely that they’d do that. And it makes perfect sense since the main folks who would build (or want to build) a Hackintosh are gamers, and Apple doesn’t really make anything they would want, namely a desktop with an upgradable processor and graphics card.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
We're getting off the bunny trail here. The thread is not about EULA and apple's response (or non-response).

 

[hiddenmarkov]

Couple things:

MBP's are not really for gaming. I own them, started in 11, have a 15 now. Gaming performance was not on list of things needed. Very fair here...my stance is the same with windows laptops (or now surfaces) as well. I do not like gaming laptops.

Want to game get a tower based system. Some cheap and good ones out there in the full range of tower sizes. They don't have to be the monster towers of doom anymore. Some are even "shoeboxish" in size. Or get a console. I have offset a lot of gaming to my xbone or son's WiiU for the simple reason with so many side interests a PC for games just not good use of money. Not an ideal solution as I lost game modding use...but it works for me and budget. That and most give me split screen...son and I an play together which is always nice. Well except for minecraft, he keeps on draining out the chests on me after I restock them lol.

When looking at mac os gaming in pure head to head it will suffer. No one makes up ground up coded games for mac os. Ie....no swift(s)/cocoa/obj-c. They run through x-platform technologies. Aka wrappers. There is translation going on here...its going to hit the system to do this. Some wrappers for lack of tactful wording as I won't candy coat it suck ass.

Mix these 2 and I see why apple not going full steam ahead here. Laptops not really for great gaming in some peoples views and end of day....all their work can just be trashed because some 3rd party wrapped the game like crap and wouldn't run well regardless.

 

[Michael Goff]

You get that performance with trade offs.

 

[maflynn]

MBP's are not really for gaming. I own them, started in 11, have a 15 now. Gaming performance was not on list of things needed. Very fair here...my stance is the same with windows laptops (or now surfaces) as well. I do not like gaming laptops.

I wouldn't consider the SurfaceBook a gaming machine. Its nice that it has a dGPU, but overall, its not built for gaming.

My opinion has changed on this, which is largely a result of MS stumbling out of the block with this machine (and when I say stumble, I'm being extremely nice). They really dropped the ball on the roll out and I think overall they'll be hard pressed to recoup the positive energy and excitement that came with the unveiling of the product.

I also think it was over priced for a 13" laptop, but that's just me. I still think on paper its a fantastic computer, but Ms failed to deliver.

From listening to the latest Windows Weekly podcast with Paul Thurrott, clearly the issues have not been cleared up and himself said that he tells people to avoid the SB at this point as he cannot in good conscience recommend such a computer that has problems as this does.

 

[Queen6]

I wouldn't consider the SurfaceBook a gaming machine. Its nice that it has a dGPU, but overall, its not built for gaming.

My opinion has changed on this, which is largely a result of MS stumbling out of the block with this machine (and when I say stumble, I'm being extremely nice). They really dropped the ball on the roll out and I think overall they'll be hard pressed to recoup the positive energy and excitement that came with the unveiling of the product.

I also think it was over priced for a 13" laptop, but that's just me. I still think on paper its a fantastic computer, but Ms failed to deliver.

From listening to the latest Windows Weekly podcast with Paul Thurrott, clearly the issues have not been cleared up and himself said that he tells people to avoid the SB at this point as he cannot in good conscience recommend such a computer that has problems as this does.

It`s a pity really as the SB is great concept, I was initially very interested, however there are certainly several issues Microsoft need to overcome on the next generation to accurately deliver on what they promised for the SB.

The SB is a little ahead of it`s time for the current tech to deliver at an acceptable price point. I am also thinking that later this year the current SB will be healthily discounted, as I am starting to see the initial price drop (SB is newly launched Asia)

Q-6

 

[spaceballl]

This isn't shocking. Surface Book uses a relatively high end dGPU. The MacBook Pro dGPU is outdated.

 

[Queen6]

This isn't shocking. Surface Book uses a relatively high end dGPU. The MacBook Pro dGPU is outdated.

Surface Book is using an equivalent to a NVIIA 940M with faster Ram, not sure how this compares to the 15" rMBP`s AMD Radeon R9 M370X, equally the SB is a good deal smaller and offers greater utility. I wouldn't class the Surface Book`s dGPU as high end, equally it is in a league of its own given the form factor.

Q-6

 

[TechZeke]

It`s a pity really as the SB is great concept, I was initially very interested, however there are certainly several issues Microsoft need to overcome on the next generation to accurately deliver on what they promised for the SB.

The SB is a little ahead of it`s time for the current tech to deliver at an acceptable price point. I am also thinking that later this year the current SB will be healthily discounted, as I am starting to see the initial price drop (SB is newly launched Asia)

Q-6

Indeed. Although it carries a $200 price premium over a similarly configured rMBP, you are getting more functionality with ability to use it as a detachable tablet. Right now there are too many issues though. I want a surface pro 4 but the issues are also putting me off. Which is disappointing since this is the 4th Generation of the Surface line. I wasn't surprised by the issues with the SB since its the first generation of a very complicated and intricate piece of engineering.

With that said; I know people like to complain about Apple's bugs, but at least when Apple releases a new device it works as advertised out of the box.
[doublepost=1454517531][/doublepost]

Surface Book is using an equivalent to a NVIIA 940M with faster Ram, not sure how this compares to the 15" rMBP`s AMD Radeon R9 M370X, equally the SB is a good deal smaller and offers greater utility. I wouldn't class the Surface Book`s dGPU as high end, equally it is in a league of its own given the form factor.

Q-6

Well, the 15" CPUs will outright murder the SB. My only problem with the comparison with the 13" rMBP is that A) It's only really faster GPU-wise if you get the $1900 dGPU model B) The only reason it even has a dGPU is because all the guts are behind the tablet portion. Then you get a bunch of people complaining that Apple is falling behind because Apple can't put a 940M in the chassis of the 13" rMBP when Microsoft couldn't either.

 

[Queen6]

Indeed. Although it carries a $200 price premium over a similarly configured rMBP, you are getting more functionality with ability to use it as a detachable tablet. Right now there are too many issues though. I want a surface pro 4 but the issues are also putting me off. Which is disappointing since this is the 4th Generation of the Surface line. I wasn't surprised by the issues with the SB since its the first generation of a very complicated and intricate piece of engineering.

With that said; I know people like to complain about Apple's bugs, but at least when Apple releases a new device it works as advertised out of the box.

I very much like the concept of the SB however; The software side will clearly mature, and the very nature of Windows make this far more challenging. The display really needs a greater level of retention as in use I found "display bounce" easy to induce. Build quality is excellent as is the quality of the display, keyboard trackpad etc. For me most concerning aspect is the display release mechanism, it`s clear why MS need to have a software controlled release (dGPU in base) however I am concerned on the longterm reliability of the same, given Microsoft`s very expensive repair/battery exchange policy (battery for Surface is around $470 upwards, as whole device is exchanged, SB is likely to be significantly more)

I have not entirely written off buying a Surface Book or Surface Pro4, equally I certainly want to think more on the usage and exactly what each device offers in my workflow. I would go for a Lenovo Yoga 900 (i7, 16Gb, 512SSD) however it has no active digitiser for pen input Right now it seems no one is producing exactly what I want and Apple is stuck in the past with the Mac I have high hopes for the 2016 rMBP, equally I am looking at Windows systems in the event we just get more of the same "thin & light" with no new features/utility. Sadly I do rather fear that Apple is advancing the Mac to an ever more "base consumer" level as ultimately this equates to greater sales...

n.b. Apple is also capable of getting is wrong, they are just smarter at resolving it and or appeasing the press & public

Q-6
[doublepost=1454520747][/doublepost]

Well, the 15" CPUs will outright murder the SB. My only problem with the comparison with the 13" rMBP is that A) It's only really faster GPU-wise if you get the $1900 dGPU model B) The only reason it even has a dGPU is because all the guts are behind the tablet portion. Then you get a bunch of people complaining that Apple is falling behind because Apple can't put a 940M in the chassis of the 13" rMBP when Microsoft couldn't either.

I believe that Asus offers 13" portables with dGPU as does Lenovo with the Yoga 700, possibly more do as well. So it`s technical possible, differing companies have their own ideas, Microsoft and the Surface Book being just one. Apple have simply become rather staid of late, with the rMB being the noticeable exception. The current MacBook Pro has aged well, equally it`s now time for Apple to "step up" and take back the lead...

We will see what Apple delivers for 2016, across the community the expectation is high, that said just a nice design won't cut it for me, I expect more.

Q-6

 

[jblagden]

Indeed. Although it carries a $200 price premium over a similarly configured rMBP, you are getting more functionality with ability to use it as a detachable tablet. Right now there are too many issues though. I want a surface pro 4 but the issues are also putting me off. Which is disappointing since this is the 4th Generation of the Surface line. I wasn't surprised by the issues with the SB since its the first generation of a very complicated and intricate piece of engineering.

With that said; I know people like to complain about Apple's bugs, but at least when Apple releases a new device it works as advertised out of the box.
[doublepost=1454517531][/doublepost]
Well, the 15" CPUs will outright murder the SB. My only problem with the comparison with the 13" rMBP is that A) It's only really faster GPU-wise if you get the $1900 dGPU model B) The only reason it even has a dGPU is because all the guts are behind the tablet portion. Then you get a bunch of people complaining that Apple is falling behind because Apple can't put a 940M in the chassis of the 13" rMBP when Microsoft couldn't either.

True, though they shouldn't have stopped putting dedicated GPUs in the 13" MacBook Pro. Having an eGPU is nice, but irritating due to the compression.

 

[Queen6]

Apple should be taking the lead, unfortunately currently they are not. An Ultrabook with external dGPU is clearly a significant advantage for the gamer, graphic professional and many engineering disciplines. What I fully expect for 2016 is more "thin & light" goodness and little else What I want is this...

Enhancement & performance, flexibility & utility not more useless IOS toys...

Q-6

 

[jblagden]

Apple should be taking the lead, unfortunately currently they are not. An Ultrabook with external dGPU is clearly a significant advantage for the gamer, graphic professional and many engineering disciplines. What I fully expect for 2016 is more "thin & light" goodness and little else What I want is this...
View attachment 614141
Enhancement & performance, flexibility & utility not more useless IOS toys...

Q-6

The only problem with an eGPU is the bandwidth. Insufficient bandwidth can only be overcome with compression, which requires more CPU power, which is very undesirable on a laptop. Really, Apple should make a mid-range desktop with an i7 CPU and replaceable, RAM, GPU, and CPU for around $1,500. The fact that they don't make anything like that or even the classic Mac Pro is probably why they don't care about Hackintoshes anymore.

 

[David58117]

Apple should be taking the lead, unfortunately currently they are not. An Ultrabook with external dGPU is clearly a significant advantage for the gamer, graphic professional and many engineering disciplines. What I fully expect for 2016 is more "thin & light" goodness and little else What I want is this...
View attachment 614141
Enhancement & performance, flexibility & utility not more useless IOS toys...

Q-6

Macs have never been for gamers though...even now, people bootcamp to Windows to play.

I really don't think it makes sense for Apple to try and change that now..

 

[jblagden]

Macs have never been for gamers though...even now, people bootcamp to Windows to play.

I really don't think it makes sense for Apple to try and change that now..

There's a reason why Macs have never been for gamers: