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transmaster

Contributor
Feb 1, 2010
1,388
644
Cheyenne, Wyoming
If you have kept up on the CCP since Winnie The Poo took over is the CCP consider you Chinese 1st and whatever your national orientation 2nd. Tik Tok is used by the CCP to keep track of peoples locations. This is especially true for Chinese Americans with family still in China. The Chinese security police use these relatives to blackmail Chinese family members living abroad. The will get Tik Tok posts from close family members with a CCP security cop standing in the background. They will already know you might be working for a business the Chinese want to steal technology from. So you have a choice spy for the Chinese or see your family in China disappear. This alone is enough of a reason the ban Tik-Tok. There are so many alternatives to it. As I said above there are a number of people in the US that are inline to take over Tik-Tok and remove its servers from China, putting them under the control of US privacy laws.
 

transmaster

Contributor
Feb 1, 2010
1,388
644
Cheyenne, Wyoming
This from Google.

More than a dozen countries have banned TikTok, including Afghanistan, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, India, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Pakistan, Taiwan, the UK, and the European Union. Some countries have full bans, while others have partial bans. For example, Australia bans TikTok on devices issued by some government agencies, while Belgium bans it on federal government devices.

The US military services have banned Tik-Tok and Bytedance use by service members. They cannot ban family members from using it however. This is a real security threat because service members can be tracked by Tik-Tok family members. That is not to say you are tracked anyway by metadata spiders, But you can use tracking blockers, and VPN's but as long as Tik-Toks servers are located in China tracking blockers will not work.
 
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Supermallet

macrumors 68000
Sep 19, 2014
1,925
2,013
I mean, disliking TikTok does not mean we love Meta.

I think Zuck's Meta is not the most favorite corporate either. We all know Meta is harvesting user data too.
dcgvswyf7zr61.jpg
I'm not saying anyone here is defending Meta, I'm just pointing out that Facebook has done demonstrable harm on a systemic level without consequence, which makes the government's hysteria over TikTok feel even more like xenophobic saber rattling. US tech companies get away with virtually anything they want.
 
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Supermallet

macrumors 68000
Sep 19, 2014
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If you have kept up on the CCP since Winnie The Poo took over is the CCP consider you Chinese 1st and whatever your national orientation 2nd. Tik Tok is used by the CCP to keep track of peoples locations. This is especially true for Chinese Americans with family still in China. The Chinese security police use these relatives to blackmail Chinese family members living abroad. The will get Tik Tok posts from close family members with a CCP security cop standing in the background. They will already know you might be working for a business the Chinese want to steal technology from. So you have a choice spy for the Chinese or see your family in China disappear. This alone is enough of a reason the ban Tik-Tok. There are so many alternatives to it. As I said above there are a number of people in the US that are inline to take over Tik-Tok and remove its servers from China, putting them under the control of US privacy laws.
Source?
 
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Serqetry

macrumors 6502
Feb 26, 2023
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This ban has nothing to do with China, it's actually about Palestine/Israel. I lot of people in the govt and their AIPAC donors are furious that TikTok is being used to share the truth about Israel's ongoing genocide in Gaza.
 

hacky

Suspended
Jul 14, 2022
647
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I'm not saying anyone here is defending Meta, I'm just pointing out that Facebook has done demonstrable harm on a systemic level without consequence, which makes the government's hysteria over TikTok feel even more like xenophobic saber rattling. US tech companies get away with virtually anything they want.
Well the government issue is not with the content on TikTok. But rather its spying capabilities. It's basically chinese spyware. Meta is also spying, but not for foreign agencies. It's staying in the US.
 

Supermallet

macrumors 68000
Sep 19, 2014
1,925
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Well the government issue is not with the content on TikTok. But rather its spying capabilities. It's basically chinese spyware. Meta is also spying, but not for foreign agencies. It's staying in the US.
Facebook is spying for the highest bidder, that is no better.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
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Well the government issue is not with the content on TikTok. But rather its spying capabilities. It's basically chinese spyware. Meta is also spying, but not for foreign agencies. It's staying in the US.
Uh...


I think all of this kind of data mining and misappropriation is bad, but I think the problem should be dealt with directly rather than targeting specific owners. The government should focus on improving privacy protections and then shut down the applications that violate those privacy protections.
 

hacky

Suspended
Jul 14, 2022
647
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Facebook is spying for the highest bidder, that is no better.

Uh...


I think all of this kind of data mining and misappropriation is bad, but I think the problem should be dealt with directly rather than targeting specific owners. The government should focus on improving privacy protections and then shut down the applications that violate those privacy protections.

Thank you for the heads up. Granted, I did not know Cambridge Analytica scandal leaked US customers data as well. I thought it was point just towards the UK users.

Well, to the hell with the whole FB and Instagram - its nothing than spyware and tool for mass manipulation.
 

tobybrut

macrumors 65816
Sep 10, 2010
1,131
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But what if the EU bans the US Tik Tok ban? What is Apple supposed to do then? Also people will just skirt the laws and find a way to access Tik Tok with a VPN or something like that! I see a slippery slope in every direction!
Let me dispel anyone’s doubt as to the legality and Constitutionality of this law. Do you know what sanctions are? There are sanctions in place on entities all over the world whether they be countries, companies, or individuals such as Russian oligarchs. Sanctions are directives by the president, who is authorized under US law, to stop anyone from doing business with the sanctioned entity. Those sanctions can have different scopes. The entity can be forbidden from doing business with any American company or sanctions can be enforced worldwide. When sanctions are issued by the president, there is a list of all companies and persons who are being sanctioned. It doesn’t just say, for instance, that you can’t do business with Russia. It would say here are all the Russian companies and individuals on the list. An attempt to sanction a whole country would end up being a very, very long list. As a result of the Ukraine war, the president placed sanctions on numerous entities including banks, oil companies, and oligarchs who often have businesses all around the world. But that list is not exhaustive. There are still many companies and individuals in Russia who are not on the list.

How are these sanctions enforced? Fines or jail time. Any US entity that does business with the sanctioned entity is fined. Does this sound familiar with the TikTok situation? This law is essentially a sanction, something done all the time.

As to your question about foreign governments, this particular law does not extend beyond the US. TikTok is free to do business with other countries all it wants. Apple is free to host the TikTok app in the EU, for instance, but not here if the sanction is placed. But this is how sanctions are enforced if the president decides to enforce it worldwide. I’ll use the example of Iran with regards to their selling oil. Under the prior Administration, Iran was forbidden to sell oil except for humanitarian reasons, to feed their people, for example. This was enforced by fines. No country or business could do business by buying oil from Iranian oil companies without being hit with the penalty that US firms would then be forbidden to do business with them. The president essentially gives foreign companies a choice. Do business with Iran or with the United States. Can’t do business with both. The US government would enforce that by fining American companies who would seek to break sanctions. Those types of sanctions work because foreign companies interested in making money would be insane to choose Iran over the US. The US could not do something like this without having the worldwide economic power it does.

If the law had indeed been extended worldwide for some reason and in your scenario the EU passed a law to defy those sanctions, Apple would have a choice of facing fines in the US and being forbidden from doing business with any US company or having the same penalty in the EU. They’d have a choice to either pull out of the EU or have their home business essentially killed. That answer would be easy. They’d be forced to pull out of the EU. But that’s completely hypothetical since it’s likely the EU would back a US ban on TikTok. Many EU nations have already followed suit by banning TikTok from government devices, so those countries are sympathetic to the argument that ByteDance is a security risk. It would be totally legal if the US tried to enforce a ban worldwide and American companies were faced with conflicting laws in other countries, but it would create a dilemma for them. The most likely result of such a scenario would be for the US and EU to negotiate a settlement, possibly by giving Apple an exemption from the sanctions.

This bill is nothing more than sanctions against ByteDance and TikTok. TikTok is forbidden to do business as long as it is owned by a sanctioned company. Now TikTok isn’t specifically mentioned, but the parameters of the law directly point at the company and Biden has said he will use it against TikTok. Since this is done all the time, this would easily pass Consitutional muster and anyone filing suit against the law would almost certainly lose unless they found some loophole in the law.
 
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DustinDev47

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2011
446
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Are you suggesting we should just arrest people because we think they might become burglars one day?
No, and your response is illogical. I drew the comparison that I did because both are examples of waiting until after intruders have gained entry to an unauthorized place, which is absurd.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
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No, and your response is illogical. I drew the comparison that I did because both are examples of waiting until after intruders have gained entry to an unauthorized place, which is absurd.

So your non-absurd alternative in this comparison is to punish the company or the person for a crime they haven't yet committed.
 

DustinDev47

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2011
446
273
So your non-absurd alternative in this comparison is to punish the company or the person for a crime they haven't yet committed.
It seems you’re having trouble understanding the problem. This isn’t a probable cause determination. The goal of this bill is not to try and convict TikTok in a criminal case. The goal is to prevent a foreign adversary from gaining unnecessary access to American data.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,515
6,779
If you have kept up on the CCP since Winnie The Poo took over is the CCP consider you Chinese 1st and whatever your national orientation 2nd. Tik Tok is used by the CCP to keep track of peoples locations. This is especially true for Chinese Americans with family still in China. The Chinese security police use these relatives to blackmail Chinese family members living abroad. The will get Tik Tok posts from close family members with a CCP security cop standing in the background. They will already know you might be working for a business the Chinese want to steal technology from. So you have a choice spy for the Chinese or see your family in China disappear. This alone is enough of a reason the ban Tik-Tok. There are so many alternatives to it. As I said above there are a number of people in the US that are inline to take over Tik-Tok and remove its servers from China, putting them under the control of US privacy laws.

Source: Totally believable and trustworthy US """"journalist"""" with no ulterior motive or funding

The US already has measures in place that forced TikTok to build an entirely separate cloud infrastructure in the US for US TikTok customers so that the government could ensure the data was being handled appropriately. You know where they stole that idea from? China. More specifically China's decision to have Chinese iCloud data and infrastructure hosted in China which a ton of people cry about for some reason. See when they do it it's evil, when we do it's for 'national security.'

What would you think about China forcing the US government to sell Apple claiming that the hundreds of millions of iPhone users in China represent a security threat because Apple is under the jurisdiction and influence of the US government? Actually that's what a Chinese spokesperson joked about in response to the US TikTok ban. In a war scenario, what's to stop the US government from turning every Chinese iPhone into a brick? Or turning them all into spying apparatuses?

You see playing this game with China means we ultimately lose because the fact of the matter that nobody wants to acknowledge is they have the advantage, we don't.
 
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zakarhino

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Sep 13, 2014
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It seems you’re having trouble understanding the problem. This isn’t a probable cause determination. The goal of this bill is not to try and convict TikTok in a criminal case. The goal is to prevent a foreign adversary from gaining unnecessary access to American data.

And that can be accomplished without forcing a sale in the same way Chinese iCloud data sovereignty was accomplished by having all Chinese iCloud infrastructure hosted in China by a state owned company -- and look, Apple is still a US owned company! Wow!

This bill in particular is about 'fixing' the "TikTok issue" of young people being able to learn about current affairs outside the media bubble that lies about everything.
 
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zakarhino

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Sep 13, 2014
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Well the government issue is not with the content on TikTok. But rather its spying capabilities. It's basically chinese spyware. Meta is also spying, but not for foreign agencies. It's staying in the US.

Absolutely nobody in this thread has explained how the particular mechanism of forcing the sale of a company (such as TikTok) is the appropriate action for preventing TikTok from being a CPC spyware app. China have managed to achieve data sovereignty (iCloud) without forcing sales so why can't we do what they do? It's because Zuckerberg doesn't want actual competition and the government are frightened about how much info young people are learning about our dirty dealings domestically and abroad. They want complete control over the social media narrative.

Let me be clear and I'll bet you $100 this is the case: Even if TikTok were to switch all US users to US servers and give our government read only access to the source code, that would still not be enough for the US because they are not exclusively interested in national security, they are concerned with losing hegemony over the narrative.
 

STOCK411

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2007
519
1,793
Absolutely nobody in this thread has explained how the particular mechanism of forcing the sale of a company (such as TikTok) is the appropriate action for preventing TikTok from being a CPC spyware app. China have managed to achieve data sovereignty (iCloud) without forcing sales so why can't we do what they do? It's because Zuckerberg doesn't want actual competition and the government are frightened about how much info young people are learning about our dirty dealings domestically and abroad. They want complete control over the social media narrative.

Let me be clear and I'll bet you $100 this is the case: Even if TikTok were to switch all US users to US servers and give our government read only access to the source code, that would still not be enough for the US because they are not exclusively interested in national security, they are concerned with losing hegemony over the narrative.
Wrong.. See Grindr.... This same exact dog and pony show happened and nobody complained

Grindr was owned by a Chinese company... The US forced them to sell to a US company, sale happened and that was that...
 
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zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
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Wrong.. See Grindr.... This same exact dog and pony show happened and nobody complained

Grindr was owned by a Chinese company... The US forced them to sell to a US company, sale happened and that was that...

What is your point exactly?
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,515
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I strongly disagree with your theory this is only happening because of what is going on in the Middle East....


These types of sales have happened many times.

I didn't say it was only happening because of the Middle East although that's certainly a major part of it considering Biden's Israel-Gaza position is causing him to suffer greatly in the polls and TikTok is a major source of the antipathy.

Zuckerberg has been pushing for anti TikTok legislation for years prior to October 7th, hence the below quote. As with any complex system there are a multitude of different stakeholders and objectives at play but there is not a single doubt in my mind that targeting TikTok specifically *right now* is largely about countering the one platform young people use to learn about politics and economics.

I actually hope the law passes and ByteDance refuse a sale by pulling out of the US entirely. It would be one of the biggest backfires in history just like the Russia sanctions were and will cause more people than ever to investigate why we're supposed to hate China like we keep being told to do. Our politicians are too stupid to realize this for the same reason they're too stupid to realize constant antagonizing of China accelerates China's dominance as the only relevant world power.

It's because Zuckerberg doesn't want actual competition
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
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The goal of this bill is not to try and convict TikTok in a criminal case.

No, the goal is to sentence without a conviction.

The goal is to prevent a foreign adversary from gaining unnecessary access to American data.

This doesn't do that. Not even close. As long as any company can capture American data and sell it or even store it insecurely, there's no way to stop a foreign entity from gaining access to it.

If this is seen as a security threat, then the legislation should focus on protecting user privacy from all companies, foreign and domestic, and impose severe enough penalties to give it teeth.

What's happening here is election year posturing and economic protectionism.
 

tobybrut

macrumors 65816
Sep 10, 2010
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Source: Totally believable and trustworthy US """"journalist"""" with no ulterior motive or funding

The US already has measures in place that forced TikTok to build an entirely separate cloud infrastructure in the US for US TikTok customers so that the government could ensure the data was being handled appropriately. You know where they stole that idea from? China. More specifically China's decision to have Chinese iCloud data and infrastructure hosted in China which a ton of people cry about for some reason. See when they do it it's evil, when we do it's for 'national security.'

What would you think about China forcing the US government to sell Apple claiming that the hundreds of millions of iPhone users in China represent a security threat because Apple is under the jurisdiction and influence of the US government? Actually that's what a Chinese spokesperson joked about in response to the US TikTok ban. In a war scenario, what's to stop the US government from turning every Chinese iPhone into a brick? Or turning them all into spying apparatuses?

You see playing this game with China means we ultimately lose because the fact of the matter that nobody wants to acknowledge is they have the advantage, we don't.
First of all, the US government has no ownership of Apple, so there’s nothing to divest. Apple is its own company with no parent or partial owners. AFAIK, there are no government officials on Apple’s board or in its management team. Second, China has already banned iPhones from use by government officials due to security concerns. In general, the US government doesn’t own very many companies. The only ones I can think of are partial ownership or subsidizing of PBS, NPR, FDIC, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. I believe the term used is quasi-governmental agencies. None of those operate outside the US.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,990
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First of all, the US government has no ownership of Apple, so there’s nothing to divest. Apple is its own company with no parent or partial owners. AFAIK, there are no government officials on Apple’s board or in its management team. Second, China has already banned iPhones from use by government officials due to security concerns. In general, the US government doesn’t own very many companies. The only ones I can think of are partial ownership or subsidizing of PBS, NPR, FDIC, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. I believe the term used is quasi-governmental agencies. None of those operate outside the US.

Don't forget the CIA incubator:

There's no longer any government officials on the Apple board now that Al Gore aged out.

There's no point getting into a whaddaboutist debate. That's not the point of any of this. This law doesn't address the problem. The law should focus on privacy without regard for ownership. If access to personal data is a national security threat then protect that data like it were a matter of national security.
 

tobybrut

macrumors 65816
Sep 10, 2010
1,131
1,572
Don't forget the CIA incubator:

There's no longer any government officials on the Apple board now that Al Gore aged out.

There's no point getting into a whaddaboutist debate. That's not the point of any of this. This law doesn't address the problem. The law should focus on privacy without regard for ownership. If access to personal data is a national security threat then protect that data like it were a matter of national security.
Al Gore was not a government official during his time as a board member.

Focusing on privacy only works on honorable entities. Anyone who trusts an adversary to be honorable is a fool, and we might as well hand them what they want on a silver platter. Removing someone from accumulating data is far more effective than securing data when a dishonorable adversary is just going to ignore any such law. Legislation isn't going to improve anyone's security. You need to remove them from a position of getting that info easily.

The issue with TikTok is that there is a Chinese law that requires these Chinese-controlled companies to hand over whatever data they want. They don't even need to hack in. They just need to ask for it. Remove TikTok's ability to accumulate that data or to prevent the CCP's ability to demand that information is far more effective than any attempt at privacy. Passing a law that forbids TikTok from giving the CCP information is pointless since China has a law that contradicts that. Guess whose law ByteDance is going to follow?
 

avz

macrumors 68000
Oct 7, 2018
1,786
1,868
Stalingrad, Russia
It would be one of the biggest backfires in history just like the Russia sanctions were...
US politicians are forced to act under the immediate pressures and therefore only achieve tactic victories. From a strategic point of view they are doing everything to help Russia get stronger and more powerful. This is a textbook case of "you are always end up working for the interests of somebody who knows and understands more than you do".
 
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