Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[makitango]

1. Not bring up macos because it is not in the same league as 1B iphone users.
2. It does depend on the platform.
3. What I do know is opening up an unsupervised avenue of malware is not good for anyone.
4. This is denial that a problem could exist.
5. Tell me the inner workings of how this will all come together. We would all like to understand how Apple will implement this.
6. Better to focus on the post content, than the poster content. This is my opinion of the direction this will go.

1. Doesn't matter in what league anything is, sideloading is sideloading and both iOS and macOS are popular platforms used by millions. You try to make us believe this is a factor, however it simply isn't. Marketing and exposure is not impressed by the last install button you press, or if it's a .dmg, .png or .ipa file you download. The file needs to get to the user in the same way, the user does not magically have new contact details just by using macOS or iOS.
2. It does not depend on the platform and you just repeating what you said without providing proof does not change it the same way you can say that the Earth is flat, and believing that repeating it makes it any more true.
3. It's a new avenue of software, not malware. It's the same like on macOS but obviously you don't want to hear that because it debunks all what you want to say. As for supervision, we were also there already and the OS is the supervisor, much more capable than a human who doesn't even have the task to check code.
4. Not sure if I'm the one in denial but feel free to believe that. Any proof btw? No? Thought so.
5. It's not rocket science how it will be implemented, just look at how Apple changed sideloading on macOS which changing defaults and adding additional restrictions to default settings.
6. As I said, you're drawing up scenarios that are unrealistic. I asked you before and I ask you again: Show me a rogue Spotify malware app/clone for macOS that is still signed. Show me. Yes, just show me.

Lol, no I have not seen a download for pegasus spyware on the AppStore lol

Have you searched for Pegasus by name? Yes, that will definitely lead you to the malware, right?

In addition

“Apple Inc in a lawsuit against US-based cybersecurity startup, Corellium, alleged that it sold its virtualization technology to the NSO group and other such "bad actors" and actively encouraged them to find 0-day exploits.”

I don't think you know who Corellium is and what they did, and how their relationship with Apple was. And how serious Apple is about zero-day exploits. Hint: Not very much. Apple left such exploits open in many cases for many months.

Also interesting, Apple files lawsuits while the EU on the other hand

“The Israeli spyware firm NSO Group on Tuesday told European lawmakers at least five EU countries have used its software and the firm has terminated at least one contract with an EU member country following abuse of its Pegasus surveillance software.”

Pegasus used by at least 5 EU countries, NSO Group tells lawmakers

NSO Group ‘made mistakes,’ its chief lawyer says.

www.politico.eu

So yeah, I have a hard time thinking the EU wanting the ability to side load random software onto iOS and circumvent the AppStore is all about “the consumers”

The one thing has zero to do with the other, you're drawing ghosts on the wall. You must be naive thinking that the US is the only country having intelligence services, and those service employees still using binoculars.

Stop changing the topic away from the issues we discuss here. We can do nothing about government intervention if they choose to spy on us.

How the hell is what I stated a direct impact on my knowledge or experience as a developer where you all need to start questioning it?

Based on what you say it is obviously impacting how people will grade your experience. It is the natural way of things.

You all basically are saying Apple employees are just "monkeys pressing approve on apps" and ALL I SAID was Apple needs to have a more thorough app review process. NOWHERE did I mention code reviews, handing over your code to junior devs, etc. There are MANY MANY things Apple can do that DOES NOT require junior devs. So I really don't understand why this was even brought up in the first place.

I didn't say that, but I am not even saying that the reviewers are Apple employees. You don't have to give people for a simple workflow like the review process corporate benefits. Yet, we see the results and if you can see a tail and a human-esque appearance, then yes of course it's a monkey, and even if it isn't you can't blame anyone thinking that it is.
I also don't know why you bring up JUNIOR devs in particular. However employing a junior dev is a bare minimum to even justify mentioning security in association with the review process. Since we're not on the moon and count to ten, we all know Apple will never pay a dev salary for the review process. And by this, the idea of the app review can kiss the idea of security checks goodbye. This is why I brought up devs, and when you say that you're a dev yourself, you should understand that better than anyone and not ask questions whose answers you should have known 30 years ago.
I am sorry but this is very basic knowledge and no one needs to be a dev to know that so this is extremely hard for me to believe that I am talking with a dev here, let alone a senior dev.

Bottom line, here are the scenarios.

1) Apple can improve the App Review process
2) Apple cannot improve the App Review process

If you all agree with #2, then you all CANNOT say Apple is just "monkeys pressing approve" since they are doing the most they can do. If you all agree #1 is possible, then we are aligned and you just questioned my knowledge for nothing?

Any reason why there are just two scenarios? The most important scenario is already getting started in the EU and it will be the same in other countries soon thereafter.

Also, and again, Apple will never pay the employees more who do the app review, it's boldly against the shareholders' interest and Apple will follow their voices no matter what. In fact, Apple has been shrinking their QA divisions year after year.
On top of that, scenario 2 does not tackle the fact that not being able to improve is no indicator about someone being at peak performance. It can also mean that they are simply not allowed to, as I pointed out above with the shareholders (which won't allow Apple to invest more in QA or reviewers). Both are departments that do not generate an investment return.
Scenario 1 is irrelevant since security is not in scope of the app review, and it will never screen the code for the reasons stated above. Zero added security is added by a reviewer on top of what the OS itself is already scanning.

None of what I said should have resorted in insults/attacks/questions of my software development knowledge. It is just unnecessary and uncalled for and it is not how you have civil conversations.

You presented yourself as a senior dev with 30 years of experience on your back. When you say things that emit the impression of lacking very substantial knowledge about how code works or what an app review vs a code review is, and how it affects security, then of course you have to expect questions about that. Criticizing you is not uncivilized, especially when you put yourself in the spotlight like that.

Point me to a statement that directly links IN ANY WAY to software development? ALL I SAID was Apple needs to have a more thorough app review process. And there are hundreds of different ways to handle this that don't even involve the coding of the application.

You said senior dev with 30 years of experience. If that is not linked to software development, tell me what is.

Also, saying that Apple needs a better review process is an opinion, not a fact. What Apple truly needs is to focus on its Gatekeeper, let it be on iOS or macOS. The review is for curation, not security. I thought we all understood that by now. The security word is the one Tim throws around like many people scream AI whenever an algorithm is paired with a database.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

😂 Obviously you failed to comprehend the nuance of what I was talking about.

We are all able to do to something we OWN after purchasing. But you missed the point that I was requesting those changes to be made at the time of purchase, just as what EU is enforcing.

And no one is preventing you to load any OS or cut your phone in half, but at the time of purchase, I want a piano delivered to me without any G# keys. It’s my choice. It’s my freedom. I want the freedom to get a piano however I want and why isn’t the EU enforcing that?

And I want the ability to run any OS prebaked into the Teslas I buy. Why am I forced to download their @#@## updates only? I don’t want to run over everyone is Africa.

Eu doesn’t require it the time of purchase.. so that’s a weird question. You think this is about the consumer rights when it’s about the B2B and B2C relationship.

The term gatekeeper refers to the ability of intermediary platforms to act as the main "bottleneck" to a large number of market participants, that are not reachable elsewhere.

Nowhere in the regulation does it states Apple must provide something at sale. It states it can’t restrict undertakers from selling their goods to x users without requiring the use of the core platform.

And for said customers to be able to use said product

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Has the appstore allowed purpose built masquerading hacks and spyware,like the what the NSO group produces, on the AppStore?

It hasn’t allowed it, but hosted it many times as copied existing apps in the store but with their special sauce.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Here's the interesting thing. I don't expect much to change for EU users or developers, yet there are clearly many people here who clearly expect a lot to change. They somehow believe this will lead to iOS being as open as the PC, or that it will somehow lead to developers being able to eschew Apple's 30% cut and their profit margins subsequently cratering. I honestly still don't think this will be the case.

Complying with the letter of the DMA does not mean capitulating to the spirit of the DMA. The idea that Apple will just roll over and give up the control over their own platform is frankly pretty naive. I expect sideloading to be off by default, to be relatively inaccessible, and developers will still have to pay Apple a 27% cut, even if it ends up costing Apple more to police this than what they bring in.

Either way, this is going to be an exciting few months. The impending release of the Vision Pro, then this, followed by a rumoured iPad refresh.

Well the spirit of the DMA is codified so I would be interested to know how Apple would collect a 27% cut when it states they must grant acces free do charge 😂

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Are we sure about that though? UK's Online Safety Act already has designs on device-side pre-encryption scanning of private message content, and I can't imagine the EU aren't also salivating at the prospect of that opportunity. Will Apple comply? Have they already? Questions we don't, and probably never will, know the answer to, but notification metadata and CSAM image scanning just called...they want their privacy back.

We are very sure. Such legislation needs unanimous support in the council and multiple members are not in favor of it.

EU parliament have essentially struck it down as well.

LIBE rejects mass scanning - European Digital Rights (EDRi)

Yesterday, LIBE MEPs voted against attempts from EU Home Affairs to roll out mass scanning of private and encrypted messages across Europe.

edri.org

 

[Jim Lahey]

We are very sure. Such legislation needs unanimous support in the council and multiple members are not in favor of it.

EU parliament have essentially struck it down as well.

LIBE rejects mass scanning - European Digital Rights (EDRi)

Yesterday, LIBE MEPs voted against attempts from EU Home Affairs to roll out mass scanning of private and encrypted messages across Europe.

edri.org

Oh well that’s that put to bed forever then.

 

[Sebalto]

You don‘t get to be the judge for laws to be designated as nanny or un-needed, you don‘t represent anyone on our continent or in the EU.

I know it stings having someone from said area who enjoys that law and sees the value for himself and others, for consumers and developers, and competition alike.

If you have 0 and improve it by 35%, what do you have after? A lot of people see 0 value in there and this is just one aspect of what this is about.

If you sell wares in a country and they come from elsewhere, you cannot trust in the (in)competence of a merchant. You create customs. That‘s how it went with covid as well, you were tested or vaccinated, and then you enter a public or private space with a certificate by an entity which was certified to do so. There‘s no need to be scanned by aunt Dolores again who may or may not know what she‘s doing.
Apple provides zero proof that they are actually scanning code more than what their OS already scans on its own.
If you look at their track record of how well they are capable to handle their own code, you can guess how well they perform with the code of others. If I had to bet my life on their review process, it would be gone within hours.

I have zero against foreigners, I literally host refugees in my home. That doesn‘t change the fact that Americans don’t get to choose what is going on here even if we hold relations with them/you.
There is also the issue that Apple‘s social media squad is deployed here and it‘s hard to identify someone who actually simply represents themselves. Anyone tryig to deflect an obvious issue which caused legal action throughout a whole group of democratic countries and going victim reverse is a strong candidate for that.

So because I'm in the UK and not in the EU I cannot pass comment on the morality of anything the EU does? Defending your position using little more than legal positivism doesn't cut it.

 

[Abazigal]

Well the spirit of the DMA is codified so I would be interested to know how Apple would collect a 27% cut when it states they must grant acces free do charge

I might be reading it wrong, but the part you quoted doesn’t seem to say that Apple cannot charge outside developers. It just does away with anti-steering provisions by allowing developers to tell customers that they can make payment outside of the App Store.

And we already have precedent of how Apple might do it.

Apple to Collect 27% Commission on Third-Party App Payment Systems in the Netherlands

Apple says it will take 27% commission on purchases made in dating apps through third-party payment options in the Netherlands, in compliance with a...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I might be reading it wrong, but the part you quoted doesn’t seem to say that Apple cannot charge outside developers. It just does away with anti-steering provisions by allowing developers to tell customers that they can make payment outside of the App Store.

Well it’s many more in the text but can’t really quote the whole Text. But it states they must provide free access to the hardware and conduct business contracts outside apples services. Essentially with what tools will Apple collect a fee when they can’t track sales by any developer. The requirement to use Xcode or to be part of the developer program is out the window

And we already have precedent of how Apple might do it.

Apple to Collect 27% Commission on Third-Party App Payment Systems in the Netherlands

Apple says it will take 27% commission on purchases made in dating apps through third-party payment options in the Netherlands, in compliance with a...

www.macrumors.com

Well that is before the DMA legislation was passed and irrelevant as it’s not applicable in regard to EU law. And they had been explicitly instructed not to rule on specific matters as it wasn’t within their legal jurisdiction, but explicitly for the EU to decide.

 

[Ethosik]

You said senior dev with 30 years of experience. If that is not linked to software development, tell me what is.

Okay we aren’t getting anywhere. I didn’t state my experience out of the gate thinking I’m all superior. I ONLY SAID IT in response to insults/attacks/questions. I’m not the one who started this whole thing. Yes if you attack me on my knowledge and I have experience that contradicts it I’ll respond in kind.

Read the thread please. You are acting like it’s the first thing I said and it was ME that talked down to people but that is not true.

Let me put it this way. If I haven’t even said that there would STILL be remarks for my lack of knowledge of software development. So try again. What statement links to warrant such responses?

 

[makitango]

I dont think he knows what he's saying anymore.

What he is essentially arguing for is for me to remove the locks on my property (claiming that they were useless anyway), and then state that my self defense skills should be more than adequate to fend off undesirables, and if they're not, then thats my fault.

The lock is iOS' Gatekepper, which runs independently from the App Store which is allowing people, good and bad, to look at the lock. Your App Store review provides zero security benefits. Apple has zero credibility and you are basing all your points on you believing them. That is not how security works.

So because I'm in the UK and not in the EU I cannot pass comment on the morality of anything the EU does? Defending your position using little more than legal positivism doesn't cut it.

Sure you can, but it's irrelevant because you are not represented here. You complaining about sideloading in the EU is unproportionate compared to what Apple does in other countries, it simply comes off as hypocritical and inseparable from Apple's PR department. Nothing what you say has even a slice of individuality that parts ways from Apple's rethoric.
Also, you just say you're from the UK, doesn't mean that you are.

I might be reading it wrong, but the part you quoted doesn’t seem to say that Apple cannot charge outside developers. It just does away with anti-steering provisions by allowing developers to tell customers that they can make payment outside of the App Store.

And we already have precedent of how Apple might do it.

Apple to Collect 27% Commission on Third-Party App Payment Systems in the Netherlands

Apple says it will take 27% commission on purchases made in dating apps through third-party payment options in the Netherlands, in compliance with a...

www.macrumors.com

Apple retains the right to charge on their storefront, but not on sideloaded apps. That would be like developing an app for any OS and selling it somewhere, and then the OS' developer knocking on your door, wanting random money.
It applies to sideloaded apps the same like any other content in your browser. Apple does not have contracts with them.

Okay we aren’t getting anywhere. I didn’t state my experience out of the gate thinking I’m all superior. I ONLY SAID IT in response to insults/attacks/questions. I’m not the one who started this whole thing. Yes if you attack me on my knowledge and I have experience that contradicts it I’ll respond in kind.

Read the thread please. You are acting like it’s the first thing I said and it was ME that talked down to people but that is not true.

Let me put it this way. If I haven’t even said that there would STILL be remarks for my lack of knowledge of software development. So try again. What statement links to warrant such responses?

You know very well that I read the thread thoroughly, nothing will change by reading it again.

There's also a soft difference between someone acting like something and people feeling like they act like something. If you feel like I overdid something by critcizing you on your self-highlighting and relating it to the security talk, then I am sorry if it hurt you, truly. But I am in my civilized right to question content when it stands in juxtaposition against itself.
I don't care what anyone here does for a living, I care for genuine opinions of people who are not directly or indirectly employed by Apple.

I also see the idea of an Apple social media squad fruitless. That is like telling East Europeans that they will live better under a new (or existing) Iron Dome because it's "secure".

 

[Ethosik]

There's also a soft difference between someone acting like something and people feeling like they act like something. If you feel like I overdid something by critcizing you on your self-highlighting and relating it to the security talk, then I am sorry if it hurt you, truly. But I am in my civilized right to question content when it stands in juxtaposition against itself.
I don't care what anyone here does for a living, I care for genuine opinions of people who are not directly or indirectly employed by Apple.

I’m still waiting for you to point me to my statement that warrants insults/attacks/questions of my software development skills. Simply stating “Apple needs do have a more thorough app review process” doesn’t warrant such hostility. It’s not even software development related as there are many ways they can improve without dealing with the code.

It’s a massive leap in logic. It’s like me saying Apple needs more RAM on the Mac Pro 192GB isn’t enough and the response is “you don’t know anything about computer engineering”. It’s just uncalled for. Does somebody need to? If they consume an app that needs more than 192GB then they can request more from Apple without having degrees in computer engineering.

Instead of saying “you know nothing about software development” how about just being civil. There are dozens of types of software engineers out there. Does a web developer know iOS development for example? What about an embedded systems engineer doing assembly? Do they know “nothing” about software development?

 

[Sebalto]

The lock is iOS' Gatekepper, which runs independently from the App Store which is allowing people, good and bad, to look at the lock. Your App Store review provides zero security benefits. Apple has zero credibility and you are basing all your points on you believing them. That is not how security works.

Sure you can, but it's irrelevant because you are not represented here. You complaining about sideloading in the EU is unproportionate compared to what Apple does in other countries, it simply comes off as hypocritical and inseparable from Apple's PR department. Nothing what you say has even a slice of individuality that parts ways from Apple's rethoric.
Also, you just say you're from the UK, doesn't mean that you are.

Apple retains the right to charge on their storefront, but not on sideloaded apps. That would be like developing an app for any OS and selling it somewhere, and then the OS' developer knocking on your door, wanting random money.
It applies to sideloaded apps the same like any other content in your browser. Apple does not have contracts with them.

Bad analogy. Developers know fully what the terms of the contract is when they produce an app for their store. Terms and conditions arent sprung on them after the fact.

As regards what else Apple does, that is beside the point. They've done some questionable things, as most firms have. The question is whether the proposed ruling is sound or not.

From the EU website:

Antitrust rules prohibit agreements between market operators that would restrict competition, and the abuse of dominance. European Antitrust policy is developed from two central rules set out in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

1. Article 101 of the Treaty prohibits agreements between two or more independent market operators, which restrict competition.
   The most flagrant example of illegal conduct infringing Article 101 is the creation of a cartel between competitors, which may involve price-fixing and/or market sharing.
2. Article 102 of the Treaty prohibits firms that hold a dominant position on a given market to abuse that position, for example by charging unfair prices, by limiting production, or by refusing to innovate to the prejudice of consumers.

Apples situation does not apply to either of these tenets, therefore to quote Jeremy Bentham, it's nonsense on stilts.

Re my location, yep I could say I am anything or anywhere online, but saying I'm from the UK hardly warrants suspicion.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

1. Doesn't matter in what league anything is, sideloading is sideloading and both iOS and macOS are popular platforms used by millions. You try to make us believe this is a factor, however it simply isn't. Marketing and exposure is not impressed by the last install button you press, or if it's a .dmg, .png or .ipa file you download. The file needs to get to the user in the same way, the user does not magically have new contact details just by using macOS or iOS.
2. It does not depend on the platform and you just repeating what you said without providing proof does not change it the same way you can say that the Earth is flat, and believing that repeating it makes it any more true.
3. It's a new avenue of software, not malware. It's the same like on macOS but obviously you don't want to hear that because it debunks all what you want to say. As for supervision, we were also there already and the OS is the supervisor, much more capable than a human who doesn't even have the task to check code.
4. Not sure if I'm the one in denial but feel free to believe that. Any proof btw? No? Thought so.
5. It's not rocket science how it will be implemented, just look at how Apple changed sideloading on macOS which changing defaults and adding additional restrictions to default settings.
6. As I said, you're drawing up scenarios that are unrealistic. I asked you before and I ask you again: Show me a rogue Spotify malware app/clone for macOS that is still signed. Show me. Yes, just show me.

Have you searched for Pegasus by name? Yes, that will definitely lead you to the malware, right?

I don't think you know who Corellium is and what they did, and how their relationship with Apple was. And how serious Apple is about zero-day exploits. Hint: Not very much. Apple left such exploits open in many cases for many months.

The one thing has zero to do with the other, you're drawing ghosts on the wall. You must be naive thinking that the US is the only country having intelligence services, and those service employees still using binoculars.

Stop changing the topic away from the issues we discuss here. We can do nothing about government intervention if they choose to spy on us.

Based on what you say it is obviously impacting how people will grade your experience. It is the natural way of things.

I didn't say that, but I am not even saying that the reviewers are Apple employees. You don't have to give people for a simple workflow like the review process corporate benefits. Yet, we see the results and if you can see a tail and a human-esque appearance, then yes of course it's a monkey, and even if it isn't you can't blame anyone thinking that it is.
I also don't know why you bring up JUNIOR devs in particular. However employing a junior dev is a bare minimum to even justify mentioning security in association with the review process. Since we're not on the moon and count to ten, we all know Apple will never pay a dev salary for the review process. And by this, the idea of the app review can kiss the idea of security checks goodbye. This is why I brought up devs, and when you say that you're a dev yourself, you should understand that better than anyone and not ask questions whose answers you should have known 30 years ago.
I am sorry but this is very basic knowledge and no one needs to be a dev to know that so this is extremely hard for me to believe that I am talking with a dev here, let alone a senior dev.

Any reason why there are just two scenarios? The most important scenario is already getting started in the EU and it will be the same in other countries soon thereafter.

Also, and again, Apple will never pay the employees more who do the app review, it's boldly against the shareholders' interest and Apple will follow their voices no matter what. In fact, Apple has been shrinking their QA divisions year after year.
On top of that, scenario 2 does not tackle the fact that not being able to improve is no indicator about someone being at peak performance. It can also mean that they are simply not allowed to, as I pointed out above with the shareholders (which won't allow Apple to invest more in QA or reviewers). Both are departments that do not generate an investment return.
Scenario 1 is irrelevant since security is not in scope of the app review, and it will never screen the code for the reasons stated above. Zero added security is added by a reviewer on top of what the OS itself is already scanning.


You presented yourself as a senior dev with 30 years of experience on your back. When you say things that emit the impression of lacking very substantial knowledge about how code works or what an app review vs a code review is, and how it affects security, then of course you have to expect questions about that. Criticizing you is not uncivilized, especially when you put yourself in the spotlight like that.

You said senior dev with 30 years of experience. If that is not linked to software development, tell me what is.

Also, saying that Apple needs a better review process is an opinion, not a fact. What Apple truly needs is to focus on its Gatekeeper, let it be on iOS or macOS. The review is for curation, not security. I thought we all understood that by now. The security word is the one Tim throws around like many people scream AI whenever an algorithm is paired with a database.

Pretty simple

Per the Pegasus malware (I linked to it, you even copied my link) made by the Israeli NSO group of bad actors

Apple field lawsuits against those who shared the tech with them and made the hack possible

The EU not only used the malware software against iPhone users, it abused it to the point that even the NSO hackers took issue with it


Seems pretty cut and dry

So yeah, left to who is side with, Mac ain’t a saint, but I’ll take Mac every day of the week and twice on Sundays for the rulers of the EU

 

[makitango]

I’m still waiting for you to point me to my statement that warrants insults/attacks/questions of my software development skills. Simply stating “Apple needs do have a more thorough app review process” doesn’t warrant such hostility. It’s not even software development related as there are many ways they can improve without dealing with the code.

It’s a massive leap in logic. It’s like me saying Apple needs more RAM on the Mac Pro 192GB isn’t enough and the response is “you don’t know anything about computer engineering”. It’s just uncalled for. Does somebody need to? If they consume an app that needs more than 192GB then they can request more from Apple without having degrees in computer engineering.

Instead of saying “you know nothing about software development” how about just being civil. There are dozens of types of software engineers out there. Does a web developer know iOS development for example? What about an embedded systems engineer doing assembly? Do they know “nothing” about software development?

Are you honestly not separating attacks, insults and questions from one another? Anyone has the right to question you and your integrity, skills, etc. I also explained that what you said is the reason why people, including me, question your skills in that arena, and it's perfectly normal. This is not Russia where I question my president and then get imprisoned or have my airplane shot down.
Simply stating that Apple needs a more thorough review process is both naive and wrong because security is elsewhere. You don't give a blind person a camera to shoot photos, simple as that. How hard is it to understand it? You stating to be a software dev should make you shake your head or roll your eyes instead of nodding.

The RAM example is also poor because you can manually install more RAM than Apple admits. I also have 128GB on my 2019 iMac 27" because I need it. Also, not using the SWAP file extends the lifespan of your SSD.

You know perfectly well why knowing nothing about software development was raised, don't act stupid. We told you time and time again why it is so hard for us to understand that you are in any remotely dev-related area because it is simply against the principles of any software design, to believe the word of some marketing boys with ZERO technological background instead of putting things in the code.

Bad analogy. Developers know fully what the terms of the contract is when they produce an app for their store. Terms and conditions arent sprung on them after the fact.

You failed to understand the very basic thing about it, which I also wrote. I write it again: It was about things outside of the store. I don't give a flick what Apple is doing in their store.

As regards what else Apple does, that is beside the point. They've done some questionable things, as most firms have. The question is whether the proposed ruling is sound or not.

You think you get to be the judge of that? I don't think so. I and all other EU citizens are the judge to that.

From the EU website:

Antitrust rules prohibit agreements between market operators that would restrict competition, and the abuse of dominance.
Apples situation does not apply to either of these tenets, therefore to quote Jeremy Bentham, it's nonsense on stilts.

Mind you read what you quote? That would save us a lot of time. It literally states there that if an entity is abusing its dominance (and Apple forces everyone to use their store and pay them a premium for a value that is glorified, and guarantees the elimination of equal competition), then it is an antitrust subject.
The EU doesn't need your approval for that designation, its citizens already voted for that.

 

[makitango]

Pretty simple

Per the Pegasus malware (I linked to it, you even copied my link) made by the Israeli NSO group of bad actors

Apple field lawsuits against those who shared the tech with them and made the hack possible

The EU not only used the malware software against iPhone users, it abused it to the point that even the NSO hackers took issue with it


Seems pretty cut and dry

So yeah, left to who is side with, Mac ain’t a saint, but I’ll take Mac every day of the week and twice on Sundays for the rulers of the EU

You're mixing up a lot of things and it doesn't sound like you understand the half of it.

 

[BaldiMac]

Well the spirit of the DMA is codified so I would be interested to know how Apple would collect a 27% cut when it states they must grant acces free do charge 😂

You are claiming that your sources say things that they don't. For example, your first picture simply says that developers can "communicate and promote offers" free of charge. That does not mean that they can't charge a 27% platform fee on sales.

 

[Sebalto]

You think you get to be the judge of that? I don't think so. I and all other EU citizens are the judge to that.

Mind you read what you quote? That would save us a lot of time. It literally states there that if an entity is abusing its dominance (and Apple forces everyone to use their store and pay them a premium for a value that is glorified, and guarantees the elimination of equal competition), then it is an antitrust subject.
The EU doesn't need your approval for that designation, its citizens already voted for that.

Yes, I can judge what I like and discuss it on a globally accessible website, which is what I'm doing.

Market dominance is based on a company's market share, not whether the company controls its own app store or not. How can a company not have anything other than "dominance" over something that it itself created?

What the hell does "a value that is glorified" mean? Either an app makes money or it doesn't. If the deal isn't to your liking, develop for another platform.

Yet again: APPLE IS NOT A DOMINANT PLAYER IN THE EU. It therefore cannot abuse it position, by the very definition that the EU sets out.

No, MEP's voted for that, not it's citizens. You dont know how the EU works so you?

 

[SpaceJello]

Nowhere in the regulation does it states Apple must provide something at sale. It states it can’t restrict undertakers from selling their goods to x users without requiring the use of the core platform.

And for said customers to be able to use said product

That can be said for all “Smart” devices or anything remotely having some computational abilities. My point has always been why is Apple iOS being singled out when other more sophisticated to basic “smart” devices aren’t under the same regulation.

We cannot deny Apple is being single out here.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

You're mixing up a lot of things and it doesn't sound like you understand the half of it.

Riiiight “it’s complicated”

Where have I heard that excuse before 😂

Apple files lawsuits against hackers and leakers and has a bounty on bugs

The EU uses hackers to break into people iPhones to the point someone of their shady hacker groups don’t even want to do their shady dealing anymore

Apple doesn’t want side loading
EU wants side loading


Compare


Apple did shady stuff to force people to upgrade their perfectly good devices

EU didn’t really care




But


It’s all for “the consumers”

 

[Ethosik]

You know perfectly well why knowing nothing about software development was raised, don't act stupid. We told you time and time again why it is so hard for us to understand that you are in any remotely dev-related area because it is simply against the principles of any software design, to believe the word of some marketing boys with ZERO technological background instead of putting things in the code.

Again how the hell is this a valid leap?

Me: I think Apple needs to have a more thorough App review process.

Others: YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!

In what way is my statement at all linked to software development? If Apple CANNOT improve their process, then also don’t just say App review process is just “monkeys pressing approve”. How the absolute hell did my statement question the development process? I didn’t even mention specifics for goodness sake. Just “Apple needs to do better”.

I agree that App review is just monkeys pressing approve. But if you all say there is nothing Apple can do. Cool. I don’t know why that must put my software development knowledge into question.

And regarding the RAM example. It shows how bad it was to jump on the software development questioning train. Like I said. What if I’m just an embedded software engineer for 30 years writing assembly? I won’t know a lot about .NET. This isn’t true but just an example. One software engineer cannot know EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET ABOUT ALL SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. For goodness sake.

So your all line of thinking. “Apple needs to do better” means the same as “against the fundamentals of development”? Okay

I’m done here. You all jumped to extreme conclusions and don’t admit you are wrong. My statements doesn’t even require a software development mindset. There are hundreds of ways Apple could improve their process without dipping into the software development sphere.

 

[makitango]

Apple files lawsuits against hackers and leakers and has a bounty on bugs

Compare the bounty it offers "as maximum" and the ones people reported for getting, including severe zero-day exploits. You will quickly see how they value the security by how much they pay, and they don't pay a lot when compared to others, who also don't happen to be richer.

The EU uses hackers to break into people iPhones to the point someone of their shady hacker groups don’t even want to do their shady dealing anymore

The EU didn't do anything, as you said yourself, it was 5 individual countries who happen to be in the EU, amongst multiple other countries including yours for sure, but you conveniently left that out, didn't you?
If I was the head of an intelligence agency, I would be stupid not to use a working software to spy on the people I have to investigate. While having a legal justification for that.
Intelligence agencies have a right to spy when national security is at risk. Difference is that the EU countries don't catalog their citizens like Pokémon cards, unlike your government, so I am not sure you can use the word shady with the same weight as we can.

Apple doesn’t want side loading
EU wants side loading


Compare

You say it like it's a bad thing. It's only bad for AAPL shareholders. Boo-hoo, if that is your whole portfolio then you need some help, seriously.

Apple did shady stuff to force people to upgrade their perfectly good devices

EU didn’t really care

Of course the EU cared. They also have brains and they saw that enough countries and individuals were already pressing the issue, it would be a waste of tax money to invest extra time in an already solved case.

Again how the hell is this a valid leap?

Me: I think Apple needs to have a more thorough App review process.

Others: YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!

In what way is my statement at all linked to software development? If Apple CANNOT improve their process, then also don’t just say App review process is just “monkeys pressing approve”. How the absolute hell did my statement question the development process? I didn’t even mention specifics for goodness sake. Just “Apple needs to do better”.

So your all line of thinking. “Apple needs to do better” means the same as “against the fundamentals of development”? Okay

I’m done here. You all jumped to extreme conclusions and don’t admit you are wrong. My statements doesn’t even require a software development mindset. There are hundreds of ways Apple could improve their process without dipping into the software development sphere.

Your statement was about security and you just repeated Apple PR by stating that there is a security value in the review process, while there isn't. It is also, again, not the place where you can embed security. You pointing out that you are a senior dev with 30 years of experience, you should know that you should never hand over your tasks that require your own specific skillset to some marketing boys, like Apple did with the UI redesign of iOS 7, which was a flop.
They cannot do any better because they are just following orders of curation. Security exists only in software development which you claimed to be a part of. They can improve the process even by giving their reviewers more donuts, doesn't change anything about security and your projected sideloading security issue.

You call it an extreme conclusion, we call it a logical one because you emit zero signals of knowing what you claim you do.

 

[makitango]

It hasn’t allowed it, but hosted it many times as copied existing apps in the store but with their special sauce.

I like the fact that you answered his question but he doesn‘t seem to reply to it now that he didn‘t hear what he wanted to hear.

 

[Ethosik]

Your statement was about security and you just repeated Apple PR by stating that there is a security value in the review process, while there isn't. It is also, again, not the place where you can embed security. You pointing out that you are a senior dev with 30 years of experience, you should know that you should never hand over your tasks that require your own specific skillset to some marketing boys, like Apple did with the UI redesign of iOS 7, which was a flop.
They cannot do any better because they are just following orders of curation. Security exists only in software development which you claimed to be a part of. They can improve the process even by giving their reviewers more donuts, doesn't change anything about security and your projected sideloading security issue.

You call it an extreme conclusion, we call it a logical one because you emit zero signals of knowing what you claim you do.

That still doesn't point to a valid criticism of software development.

The act of gatekeeping alone helps to some degree with malicious apps. We constantly suffered with my Grandma getting attacked left and right with Windows 10. Once we got her a device with Windows 10 S (Microsoft Store Only apps allowed), the attacks stopped because she could not install a random exe from the internet. App review process prevents the most basic malware and can help with a little more complex malware items. Also, said grandma also had issues with Android that was resolved when we moved her to iPhone.

That is all I said and is really something so basic it shouldn't even be questioned.

I never once implied Apple should review your entire source code.

 

[BaldiMac]

It hasn’t allowed it, but hosted it many times as copied existing apps in the store but with their special sauce.

I like the fact that you answered his question but he doesn‘t seem to reply to it now that he didn‘t hear what he wanted to hear.

Do either of you have a source for the claim that Apple hosted NSO Group spyware on the App Store?