Yeah you're right, I'm just thinking about frames but I understand the ghosting is more like image persistence of previous frames lingering and so forth etc
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16" MacBook Pro ghosting / smearing...
- Thread starter StONE_ROdGEr
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Response time doesn't change depending on the frequency the monitor is running at in hz.
This is your go-to site for testing ghosting issues:
https://www.testufo.com/ghosting
This is your go-to site for testing ghosting issues:
https://www.testufo.com/ghosting
have you noticed any color unifomity problem, banding or dirty screen issue. could you please make a test with grey background and take a photo for us
Hi, following this thread, while switching between apps and desktops, Green ghosting starts to appear as well on the 16" 2021. Is that related? (white color on dark background)
Videos of this behaviour:
Videos of this behaviour:
Ok so the notebookcheck figures are in for the 14 inch. Black to white 40ms, grey to grey 58ms.
This is actually slightly worse than the 2019 intel 16 inch. Also, PWM flickers at all brightness levels (even HDR) at a freq of 14.8 kHz. This is way slower than the >100kHz of the 2019 model.
It appears that ProMotion makes up for some of the ghosting, but there's not getting around the fact that this display is even slower than that of last generation.
This confirms the above visual impressions from readers and videos.
Notebookcheck say the display is still impressive but there's definitely a lot of room for improvement in the coming years (notch, response times, blooming, sdr brightness levels)...
This is actually slightly worse than the 2019 intel 16 inch. Also, PWM flickers at all brightness levels (even HDR) at a freq of 14.8 kHz. This is way slower than the >100kHz of the 2019 model.
It appears that ProMotion makes up for some of the ghosting, but there's not getting around the fact that this display is even slower than that of last generation.
This confirms the above visual impressions from readers and videos.
Notebookcheck say the display is still impressive but there's definitely a lot of room for improvement in the coming years (notch, response times, blooming, sdr brightness levels)...
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Wonder how the response time on other mainstream mini-LED devices like the M1 iPad compare.
Impressions on my new 16", and quick comparisons to roommate's 14" and 16".
It's... pretty bad, and I would've noticed it regardless of whether I'd followed this thread before. Most noticeable in dark mode apps that are already supporting 120 Hz, Messages is in obvious one if you select a conversation and then scroll up and down. It's still fine for 95% of my Mac use, though, and of course not really noticeable in video content. Much like the poor response time of older Macs, it's something we're gonna have to get used to and be stuck with for the foreseeable future. I do agree that it somewhat defeats the purpose of ProMotion and ends up looking only marginally better than 60Hz a lot of the time.
It's... pretty bad, and I would've noticed it regardless of whether I'd followed this thread before. Most noticeable in dark mode apps that are already supporting 120 Hz, Messages is in obvious one if you select a conversation and then scroll up and down. It's still fine for 95% of my Mac use, though, and of course not really noticeable in video content. Much like the poor response time of older Macs, it's something we're gonna have to get used to and be stuck with for the foreseeable future. I do agree that it somewhat defeats the purpose of ProMotion and ends up looking only marginally better than 60Hz a lot of the time.
It indeed appears that ProMotion makes a hell of a difference... when it's actually enabled.
This video from french site consomac compares scrolling in Safari from the old and new 16 inch MBPs. Safari is still at 60Hz and the ghosting is pretty similar between the two:
But this second video shows a moving Finder window, with Promotion this time enabled in the new MBP. The ghosting has almost disappeared:
Long story short, people will have to wait for ProMotion to be a bit more system-wide in order to say farewell to ghosting on the new machines.
This video from french site consomac compares scrolling in Safari from the old and new 16 inch MBPs. Safari is still at 60Hz and the ghosting is pretty similar between the two:
But this second video shows a moving Finder window, with Promotion this time enabled in the new MBP. The ghosting has almost disappeared:
Long story short, people will have to wait for ProMotion to be a bit more system-wide in order to say farewell to ghosting on the new machines.
Well, ghosting is WAAAY more noticeable when moving something white over black por examble, moving grey over white makes easier to hide and 120hz does not translate to better GTG lacency.
Agreed, but ghosting is already quite well exhibited with grey over white in the 60Hz case, and the point that these animations make is that you'll have significantly less ghosting with a 120Hz refresh. This matches the impressions from users who have already reported in this thread and elsewhere. I expect the same from a white over black experiment, just that I don't have one at hand.
I believe that ghosting is reduced with 120Hz because the response curve is not linear, but rather an exponential relaxation with it a quick rise followed by a long tail. Transitions between frames at 120Hz take advantage of the quick rise and involve the long tail less than transitions at 60Hz.
On a side note, consomac also highlight a vignetting problem with these new screens.
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I have the exact same issue on my new 14" MBP 2021. And even when I scroll the black text on white background I see noticeable green ghosting which is super annoying. Don't know is it a defect or not and should I return mine.
Just made an account to say I am also seeing this in a big way. Every time anything white on black scrolls there is a blue smear left behind. I see it every few seconds in normal use.
It even happens for example when I have a finder window in dark mode overlapping a light website, and I click the browser to bring the site to the front, then the entire screen will be blue for a fraction of a second.
I have been to a local store (Currys in the UK) and examined 3 display MacBook Pros and an iPad Pro with the newer screen and they all smear like this when swiping between two windows like in your second clip.
I also checked an older 13 inch MacBook Pro that was next to the others and it did not leave a blue trail.
I could not tell how noticable the blue trail was at lower brightness or when scrolling text due to the lighting in the store.
Is this just the new display tech? Can anyone else relate?
Next time you get to Curry's, if they have an Intel 16" MBP, or an older 15", you can check to see. The response times are similar to the older machines, but I don't know about the color of the ghosting.
Response times are actually far slower in the new machine. Per Notebookcheck the white to black response time is slower than ANY laptop that they have tested to date, at almost 92ms. This is actually about twice slower than the older intel 16 inch display. As I explain above this is partly offset by the 120Hz refresh when it is present. But with such abysmally slow response times, at some point you'll inevitably run into instances of extreme smearing.
The 16" gray to gray is measured at 43ms, which is typical of MBPs, and the similar 14" screen is measured at 40ms black to black, so it's not likely the 92ms figure for 16" black to black is accurate. NotebookCheck apparently aren't sure themselves, and have marked the figures with question marks.
I don't see how response time would be affected by fresh rates, but I suppose it's possible.
At Currys I inspected all of the Pros on display, which included 3 of the new 14"/16" models, and a 13" M1 with touch bar.
All 3 new models had the blue smearing like in the videos from the other poster. The older 13" model had no issues. Of course, it still had ghosting, but no more than any older MacBook I've seen and not with such a distracting colour.
My previous laptop was a 15" intel with touch bar and that was normal like the 13" I saw. The common denominator seems to be the mini LED screen.
My experience with the display units seems to imply that this blue smearing effect is just normal for this type of screen, but it is so prelevant in daily use and so different from any other display I have used that it leaves me baffled as to how under-reported this issue is.
I have seen loads of reviews and none of them mention it. The 2 recent posts from other users in this thread seem to be the only people on the internet mentioning it.
It is a much more obvious issue than the 'green tint' effect that the iPhones had last year, yet those threads on MacRumors had numerous replies shortly after the phone launched.
It's probably only noticeable under conditions that usually don't come up. I've had the new 16" for a couple weeks and haven't noticed it. Even now, trying to produce the effect, I can't see it, but I may not have done the right thing just right, using light type moving against a dark background.
Another review of the display points at exceptionally slow response times:
Apple MacBook Pro's Liquid Retina XDR Display Review
After looking at the performance of Apple's M1 Pro SoC powering the new MacBook Pro 16, there's another unique component in this laptop that's worth looking into,...
www.techspot.com
quote:
"Unfortunately there is a major drawback to the Liquid Retina XDR display used on the new MacBook Pros, and that’s the motion performance. While it’s nice to see Apple upgrade the refresh rate to 120Hz compared to the 60Hz they were using previously, the display being used here doesn’t have the appropriate level of response times to keep up with that 120Hz refresh rate. The panel is actually very, very slow, which is a disappointment."
They confirm the 100ms black to white time, and measure 35ms white to black - and mention these are among the worst they've measured.
The author goes on to say 20-40ms is a typical transition time, which is in line with previous MBPs. In the UFO test, that looks about right compared to the 17ms one also tested. Most people have found it to be at least as good as the previous 16" in motion blur and such. So I don't know where the really slow times measured show up, or why the 16" would be slower than the 14" only in that one way, while using what seems to be the same technology.Another review of the display points at exceptionally slow response times:
Apple MacBook Pro's Liquid Retina XDR Display Review
After looking at the performance of Apple's M1 Pro SoC powering the new MacBook Pro 16, there's another unique component in this laptop that's worth looking into,...
quote:
"Unfortunately there is a major drawback to the Liquid Retina XDR display used on the new MacBook Pros, and that’s the motion performance. While it’s nice to see Apple upgrade the refresh rate to 120Hz compared to the 60Hz they were using previously, the display being used here doesn’t have the appropriate level of response times to keep up with that 120Hz refresh rate. The panel is actually very, very slow, which is a disappointment."
They confirm the 100ms black to white time, and measure 35ms white to black - and mention these are among the worst they've measured.
I took my Mac to the Genius Bar.
The technician told me that there is a high chance for the green color to be a software issue (Color calibration ?). We could reproduce it on all the devices inside the store with him. The issue has been addressed to Apple and hopefully their engineers will bring an update soon.