1Password Remigrant thread

[MacBH928]

1Password offers the higher level of security imo with the use of the secret key. Basically, if I use proton's password manager, then If my password used for my email is compromised, that also means my password manager - I'm not really liking that at all.

Being the 1PW Remigrant thread, I would want any contender to offer something more then what 1PW offers, I'm not seeing that with Proton.

Good point about the security flaw but I think like other Proton service I have seen it would go to a much better product in the future. I think they worked too much on the security aspect and features are coming in the future.

The way I would do it is I would have a separate Proton account just for my password manager, the paid version is $1/M .

“Not related to my point. SQLCipher is probably great, but there's a whole application wrapping it which is an unknown.”

It absolutely is related to your point! The same people who developed SQLCipher wrote Codebook. They have been developing a password manager for a quarter of a century without any issues, and yet you make comments like, “I have no reason to trust it.” I don’t get your logic.


“For example, 1Password is careful to clear the clipboard of passwords after a bit. Does Codebook do that?”

Yes. From the documentation: “Codebook automatically wipes secrets from the system clipboard after 2 minutes.”


I don’t view Codebook in the same vein as KeePass. Everything in Codebook was created by the same developers, whereas many unrelated folks have had their hands in KeePass. Zetetic is a commercial company in the full time business of creating security products. KeePass is an internet cluster..... I would never use KeePass!

I must say that just because the person behind is competent , doesn't mean the work itself is great. Sometimes "competent" people do not do such a great job at some of their work and this can be seen across all professions. As much as Apple creates good hardware they do have a track of failed products.

Unless, of course, you don't keep your vault in some SaaS, thereby eliminating any hack, let alone potential for a hack. Hence, why people would rather have standalone vaults, like what 1Password used to offer. Paying the single price upfront for the permanent use of a standalone vault makes that single cost so much more valuable than paying monthly for something that could potentially be hacked because one is putting their credentials in the trust of someone else.

BL.

you can have subscription and local vault, can you not? Not that I support subscription model.

 

[maflynn]

The way I would do it is I would have a separate Proton account just for my password manager, the paid version is $1/M .

That's do able, but it feels like a work around. If I need two accounts, one for my proton services and another for the password manager, there needs to be other features to differentiate it from its competitors.

So with that said, are there other features? Looking at: https://proton.me/pass I see the it includes anonymous email addresses. So you have that, and that's a nice addition. Not exactly a feature you would expect from a password manager but nice nonetheless. Proton is highly touting its end to end encryption. Yet with that said, it seems most password managers have end to end encryption - Bitwarden, 1password, keepass, and dashlane all use end to end encryption.

Its a version 1.0 of this product but it feels more like a version 0.1 because it does lack standard features that other password managers offer, such as a desktop app, reports and statistics on weak/compromised passwords. It may be a nice option in the future, but I don't see why establised users of a password manager switching - unless its lastpass, then anything is better then using lastpast

 

[ignatius345]

I don't spend my entire time on one computer, either. I am, however, prior to 1Password 8, able to sync my standalone vault between my MBP, iPad, and iPhone, as well as back up my vault to my NAS (which is not exposed to the Internet), leaving myself safe.

The problem I have with 1Password (which is why I migrated off of it, cutting my losses early due to Rosetta 2 being dropped soon, and going to Apple Silicon over Intel) is that not only are they no longer allowing standalone vaults, but you have to store your vaults on their servers, losing nearly all autonomy in where you can store your data.

All of that, on top of in a year's time, paying more for the service than the standalone license would cost.

Not having my entire time on one computer isn't the problem; lack of autonomy and what I can do with my data (and more importantly, where I can store my data) is. If they had left the provisioning servers up to provision standalone licenses for 1Password 7, I'd jump all over it, since that one is a universal binary, which would survive the loss of Rosetta 2, but they turned those off, leaving no upgrade path for anyone with 1Password 6 and older that does not require a subscription. That left a lot of their users stranded with nothing to do.

BL.

Yeah, it sounds like the NAS thing works great for you, and it is a shame 1Password doesn't work that way anymore. I myself need the friction-free setup they provide now. My family shares vaults with me, and at any given moment I can be sure everything is in sync and I have to do absolutely nothing but pay a pretty small subscription fee every year. I totally understand the desire to control where one's data is stored but this is one situation where ease of use for me trumps total control. But yeah, it does suck they can't find a way to accomodate people who prefer to self-host.

 

[parameter]

Interested to see how it ends up for you. Keeping an open mind and exploring options is never a bad thing.

I'm still quite happy after switching to Bitwarden.

I see a lot of Bitwarden converts here - I almost was (and might still become one). I personally do not Electron apps, and wasn't aware that Bitwarden was as well. It's not that it's just the magic word "Electron" that makes me hate things. It's just that so far, I have yet to see any well-built, native feeling app on the Mac - that is fast, snappy UI and polished and just looks and functions 100% Mac-like.

But, while I even posted in that 1PW migrants thread about a year ago that I was moving to anything else after their Electron and v8 announcements, my subscription renewed without me realizing it (annual) so I never ended up switching to anything. I've meant to try a lot of others (Strongbox is another I hear is good, but not sure what you all think or experience?), I just haven't had the time.

So, I'm still using 1PW, but, I am still using v7. I do use their cloud stored vault (not local for me anymore). I saw the mention that they'll be killing off the 1pw v7 plugin (and who knows what else or how they'll subtly but effectively do the same to the app soon).

The way that 1PW's company Agilebits runs things these days is very different than they used to be, much less "single/family" customer oriented than enterprise, it appears and feels like they're just taking whatever money from individual users that they can, while not really trying to serve or care about our needs and mainly go after the Enterprise clients.
They also have very bad and super aggressive/defensive customer service. They even banned me on Reddit from their channel due to me asking twice about Electron, and I just asked a couple of important questions, nicely. But got very rude DMs back from 2 of the 1PW employees on Reddit and then banned...Not the best customer experience or service experience!).

BUT - I know it sounds like I'm bashing 1PW to death, in a "going back to 1PW thread" - that's not my intention. While I'm still on v7, the actual native Mac version, I still like it and use it daily. I tried the v8 release when it came out, but again just found it sluggish and not very responsive, in addition to just feeling like a Windows app plopped on my screen.

Has version 8 improved a lot since release?
I would love to know if it has gotten better. I know it's still Electron, again, which I personally do not like due to many reasons (yes, resource usage is also very important, especially for something running 100% of the time my Mac is on; and even more so on Macs like the M1, with limited RAM).

I would upgrade to v8 right now - if I could easily revert to v7 if I hate it. It looks like I'm going to have to upgrade to v8 within a couple days anyway unless I want to lose unknown functionality, or at least fairly soon.

Options?
Stay or leave? I do not know. I guess I will probably end up settling and just upgrading to v8 sometime very soon...and hope it goes well. One big question I have is - If I did decide to leave 1PW and migrate to something else (Bitwarden, Strongbox, etc.), does anyone know if the export of all my 1pw data from v7 is easier/harder to import into something else than v8? Or is there no major difference.

Sorry to somewhat get a bit off topic. Again, I'm still a 1pw user that said I was leaving. Now, I'm just trying to get daily things done and don't have time, for now to mess with others unless it turns out horribly. Next year's renewal though, that may change depending on my experience with v8.

Some questions above if anyone has experience. Otherwise just chiming in, but not bashing 1pw or others (just for the record )

 

[gregmac19]

They also have very bad and super aggressive/defensive customer service. They even banned me on Reddit from their channel due to me asking twice about Electron, and I just asked a couple of important questions, nicely. But got very rude DMs back from 2 of the 1PW employees on Reddit and then banned...Not the best customer experience or service experience!).

I'm shocked you would continue to do business with a company that treated you this way!

 

[svenmany]

Has version 8 improved a lot since release?

I think so. I remember raising the issue on their forums of not being able to easily reveal a password with a single keystroke. They added that shortly after. I really appreciated when they added "Compact" density as well. I don't have any other details that I can remember except that I found it hard to use after it being first released. It feels like whatever was bothering me has been fixed. I don't think it's just me getting used to it.

There are many non user interface improvements that have been added since its release, but I don't think that's what you're asking about.

I've started testing Bitwarden. The user interface bits are clearly Electron. Subjectively, it's not even close to as nice as 1Password.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

I see a lot of Bitwarden converts here - I almost was (and might still become one). I personally do not Electron apps, and wasn't aware that Bitwarden was as well. It's not that it's just the magic word "Electron" that makes me hate things. It's just that so far, I have yet to see any well-built, native feeling app on the Mac - that is fast, snappy UI and polished and just looks and functions 100% Mac-like.

But, while I even posted in that 1PW migrants thread about a year ago that I was moving to anything else after their Electron and v8 announcements, my subscription renewed without me realizing it (annual) so I never ended up switching to anything. I've meant to try a lot of others (Strongbox is another I hear is good, but not sure what you all think or experience?), I just haven't had the time.

I think the whole election was overblown. The app is way better than Bitwarden’s app also. It’s gotten better with every update also. I think it’s way better than most apps I have on my MacBook actually.

So, I'm still using 1PW, but, I am still using v7. I do use their cloud stored vault (not local for me anymore). I saw the mention that they'll be killing off the 1pw v7 plugin (and who knows what else or how they'll subtly but effectively do the same to the app soon).

The way that 1PW's company Agilebits runs things these days is very different than they used to be, much less "single/family" customer oriented than enterprise, it appears and feels like they're just taking whatever money from individual users that they can, while not really trying to serve or care about our needs and mainly go after the Enterprise clients.
They also have very bad and super aggressive/defensive customer service. They even banned me on Reddit from their channel due to me asking twice about Electron, and I just asked a couple of important questions, nicely. But got very rude DMs back from 2 of the 1PW employees on Reddit and then banned...Not the best customer experience or service experience!).

I’m shocked they did that. In the early days of 8, I admit, I was an a$$hole on Reddit to them, and I haven’t gotten banned. I was trying to get as much info as possible about 8 and electron.

BUT - I know it sounds like I'm bashing 1PW to death, in a "going back to 1PW thread" - that's not my intention. While I'm still on v7, the actual native Mac version, I still like it and use it daily. I tried the v8 release when it came out, but again just found it sluggish and not very responsive, in addition to just feeling like a Windows app plopped on my screen.

Has version 8 improved a lot since release?
I would love to know if it has gotten better. I know it's still Electron, again, which I personally do not like due to many reasons (yes, resource usage is also very important, especially for something running 100% of the time my Mac is on; and even more so on Macs like the M1, with limited RAM).

It’s so much better. Someone posted RAM usage on here and it was really good.

I would upgrade to v8 right now - if I could easily revert to v7 if I hate it. It looks like I'm going to have to upgrade to v8 within a couple days anyway unless I want to lose unknown functionality, or at least fairly soon.

I ran both 7 and 8 together on my Mac for a few months. 7 is long gone now and I’m not looking back.

Options?
Stay or leave? I do not know. I guess I will probably end up settling and just upgrading to v8 sometime very soon...and hope it goes well. One big question I have is - If I did decide to leave 1PW and migrate to something else (Bitwarden, Strongbox, etc.), does anyone know if the export of all my 1pw data from v7 is easier/harder to import into something else than v8? Or is there no major difference.

Try 8 before you try others and see for yourself.

Sorry to somewhat get a bit off topic. Again, I'm still a 1pw user that said I was leaving. Now, I'm just trying to get daily things done and don't have time, for now to mess with others unless it turns out horribly. Next year's renewal though, that may change depending on my experience with v8.

Some questions above if anyone has experience. Otherwise just chiming in, but not bashing 1pw or others (just for the record )

I’m constantly trying other password managers and I always end up disappointed with them for one reason or another.

 

[parameter]

I'm shocked you would continue to do business with a company that treated you this way!

It wasn't on purpose, my subscription renewal happened before I realized it was due to renew. Otherwise, I would be out. Going forward, it's tough. I personally do not like AgileBits anymore, one bit. Again, a bad company in many ways.

But then, what are the other options? Yes, there are the other threads about migration away from it, but I could never find a good enough solution that people seemed to like. I went through endless pages in those threads, but there were always downsides to the alternatives versus 1pw.

So dealing with a bad company I guess is what may have to be done. Wish it wasn't necessary, but it might be. I like how 1pw v7 works. I just didn't like the initial v8 for so many reasons, many I mentioned and others have replied to, which I haven't read yet, but it sounds like v8 has possibly gotten better. I'll be reading that next.

Am I going to deal with the devil, again? Not sure.

 

[parameter]

I think the whole election was overblown. The app is way better than Bitwarden’s app also. It’s gotten better with every update also. I think it’s way better than most apps I have on my MacBook actually.


I’m shocked they did that. In the early days of 8, I admit, I was an a$$hole on Reddit to them, and I haven’t gotten banned. I was trying to get as much info as possible about 8 and electron.


It’s so much better. Someone posted RAM usage on here and it was really good.


I ran both 7 and 8 together on my Mac for a few months. 7 is long gone now and I’m not looking back.


Try 8 before you try others and see for yourself.


I’m constantly trying other password managers and I always end up disappointed with them for one reason or another.

Thanks for the detailed responses. Well, it sounds like I'm going to take the dive and upgrade to v8 this weekend and hopefully will be happily surprised

As for the company, like I mentioned - I am definitely not a fan of them or their employees (at least the ones that I mentioned that run their reddit board, absolutely terrible employees and customer service). But again, what are my other options?

I know there are tons of other options out there, but as you mentioned and most people seem to, at least for now - that most usually come back to 1pw for one reason or another. I just hope for me personally, that it is due to it being a great app, much different than it was upon release.

If anyone is interested, I'll post my experience after I upgrade and let you know what I think.
But, as you are, I'm always looking for a better pw manager as well. So if you come across something a lot better, please PM me! 😁

 

[bradl]

you can have subscription and local vault, can you not? Not that I support subscription model.

Not coming from 1Password 6, no. In purchasing the subscription, they leave your local vault in read-only mode for the duration. The only CRUD functions you can do to the local vault is read; no create, update, or delete from the local vault once you go subscription model.

You can't even go to 1PW 7 and use your previous 1PW 6 license: bought directly from 1Password, purchased from the App Store, or otherwise.. and worse, reverting back to 1PW 6 still leaves the vault in read only mode. I had to fully restore my Mac from Time Machine to get my vault back working with 1PW 6. Thankfully I did do a full backup of my Mac prior to that attempt to get to 1PW 7.

So no.. now for 1Password, it is all subscription or nothing at all, unless you were able to purchase 1PW 7 directly from them and get the license provisioned by them, as that 1PW 7 license is permanent.

BL.

 

[MacBH928]

That's do able, but it feels like a work around. If I need two accounts, one for my proton services and another for the password manager, there needs to be other features to differentiate it from its competitors.

Well there is no way around it I guess, how can you have 1 username but 2 passwords, one for all your proton services and one for ProtonPass? I guess maybe if they treat protonpass as an independent service.

Either way, thats the current situation. You have one account for your passwords (1pw/Bitwarden) and another for your email service (proton)

So with that said, are there other features? Looking at: https://proton.me/pass I see the it includes anonymous email addresses. So you have that, and that's a nice addition. Not exactly a feature you would expect from a password manager but nice nonetheless. Proton is highly touting its end to end encryption. Yet with that said, it seems most password managers have end to end encryption - Bitwarden, 1password, keepass, and dashlane all use end to end encryption.

Its a version 1.0 of this product but it feels more like a version 0.1 because it does lack standard features that other password managers offer, such as a desktop app, reports and statistics on weak/compromised passwords. It may be a nice option in the future, but I don't see why establised users of a password manager switching - unless its lastpass, then anything is better then using lastpast

Proton's end-to-end encryption is not a ProtonPass feature. Its their Mail , Calendar, Drive feature. I think there are only few companies that have a cloud hosting of email and calendar that is E2E.

Yes currently there is no reason to switch but its yet another 1password alternative from a reputable company

Not coming from 1Password 6, no. In purchasing the subscription, they leave your local vault in read-only mode for the duration. The only CRUD functions you can do to the local vault is read; no create, update, or delete from the local vault once you go subscription model.

You can't even go to 1PW 7 and use your previous 1PW 6 license: bought directly from 1Password, purchased from the App Store, or otherwise.. and worse, reverting back to 1PW 6 still leaves the vault in read only mode. I had to fully restore my Mac from Time Machine to get my vault back working with 1PW 6. Thankfully I did do a full backup of my Mac prior to that attempt to get to 1PW 7.

So no.. now for 1Password, it is all subscription or nothing at all, unless you were able to purchase 1PW 7 directly from them and get the license provisioned by them, as that 1PW 7 license is permanent.

BL.

😖

 

[MacBH928]

The way that 1PW's company Agilebits runs things these days is very different than they used to be, much less "single/family" customer oriented than enterprise, it appears and feels like they're just taking whatever money from individual users that they can, while not really trying to serve or care about our needs and mainly go after the Enterprise clients.

tell me about it:

who would schedual a demo for a password manager? 🤣🤣
Unless the business app has some advanced administrative tools or something, idk.

Their family plan is priced greatly, I think thats the part where they are "scrapping" whatever they can, but whatever, at $1/account its a great price and if I had the use for it and didn't mind their "cloud storage" I'd go for it. Its even cheaper than Bitwarden if am not wrong.

I think so. I remember raising the issue on their forums of not being able to easily reveal a password with a single keystroke. They added that shortly after. I really appreciated when they added "Compact" density as well. I don't have any other details that I can remember except that I found it hard to use after it being first released. It feels like whatever was bothering me has been fixed. I don't think it's just me getting used to it.

There are many non user interface improvements that have been added since its release, but I don't think that's what you're asking about.

I've started testing Bitwarden. The user interface bits are clearly Electron. Subjectively, it's not even close to as nice as 1Password.

Previously I found them very responsive and very pleasant to deal with. After they got ideas to move aggressively with their new business model they became as you described them. I think maybe they got orders to shut down any one who does not like their new direction.

I think the whole election was overblown. The app is way better than Bitwarden’s app also. It’s gotten better with every update also.

You are right but Bitwarden comes from a different mentality. 1password is more of an app, Bitwarden is more of a browser extension. you are not supposed to use the app but its there if you want it.

I’m constantly trying other password managers and I always end up disappointed with them for one reason or another.

You should be disappointed. 1password is the best overall password manager. If you do not mind: Subscription, proprietary software, having your data stored in their cloud, do trust them, you should be definitely with them.

The only password manager feature that I found better outside of 1password is Bitwarden's autofill

But then, what are the other options? Yes, there are the other threads about migration away from it, but I could never find a good enough solution that people seemed to like. I went through endless pages in those threads, but there were always downsides to the alternatives versus 1pw.

Depends on what you need, will gladly continue this conversation in the Migrants Thread . As above, if you have no issue with 1password or Agilebits, why change?!

I know there are tons of other options out there, but as you mentioned and most people seem to, at least for now - that most usually come back to 1pw for one reason or another.

I do not think that is correct. Most who chose to leave 1password from talking to them on the 1Password Migrants thread seem to like their new home.

The biggest thing I miss is the mini Assistant app which is a must for me (I am surprised others do not care much for this). Unfortunately I only found 2 apps that do this and that is Enpass and Codebook. Codebook is too obscure and I wouldn't say its the most pleasant thing to use and Enpass needs lots of polishing.

Also from CodeBook website . Complete deal breaker.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

If you do not mind: Subscription, proprietary software, having your data stored in their cloud, do trust them, you should be definitely with them.

not one bit. It’s the one subscription I don’t mind paying at all.

Also. I take it you use Apple Products since you’re on this site…. That’s proprietary software.

 

[svenmany]

You are right but Bitwarden comes from a different mentality. 1password is more of an app, Bitwarden is more of a browser extension. you are not supposed to use the app but its there if you want it.

Why do you say that? Bitwarden's desktop app is limited compared to 1Password's. Is that why you say that?

 

[Mr. Heckles]

You are right but Bitwarden comes from a different mentality. 1password is more of an app, Bitwarden is more of a browser extension. you are not supposed to use the app but its there if you want it.

Why do you say that? Bitwarden's desktop app is limited compared to 1Password's. Is that why you say that?

I use the 1Password extension only on my work computer, and it works great still without the app.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

tell me about it:
View attachment 2226306

who would schedual a demo for a password manager? 🤣🤣
Unless the business app has some advanced administrative tools or something, idk.

Funny, others have this as well. Why wouldn’t they offer a demo? The company I work for also offers demos. I could go though more password managers, but you get the point. I am guessing LastPass shows how your data gets stolen in their demo 😂
And yes, the business versions of all of these have extra tools.

 

[svenmany]

Funny, others have this as well. Why wouldn’t they offer a demo? The company I work for also offers demos. I could go though more password managers, but you get the point. I am guessing LastPass shows how your data gets stolen in their demo 😂

Yeah - in all the cases you mention it seems they are targeting business users. The implication being raised is that this implies a loss of interest in the individual. I don't feel that when I interact with the 1Password support people. It's just not cost effective to offer demos to individuals.

 

[gregmac19]

The biggest thing I miss is the mini Assistant app which is a must for me (I am surprised others do not care much for this). Unfortunately I only found 2 apps that do this and that is Enpass and Codebook. Codebook is too obscure and I wouldn't say its the most pleasant thing to use and Enpass needs lots of polishing.

Also from CodeBook website . Complete deal breaker.

View attachment 2226307

You bring this up over and over and over again! How often do you think it is necessary? I have explained this before, but I’ll do it one last time.

Password AutoFill is an Apple feature that other browser providers have not yet chosen to incorporate into their software. So what is true for Codebook regarding AutoFill is true for other password managers as well. As you know, many password managers come with plug-ins that supply an autofilling feature. Codebook however provides (as you mentioned) an assistant app that, although not as convenient as AutoFill, works well.

 

[Brian33]

I ran both 7 and 8 together on my Mac for a few months. 7 is long gone now and I’m not looking back.

Thanks for writing this -- very good to know it's possible!

Right now my family is very happily using v7 (with subscription) but I've been hesitant to move to v8. ("If it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality). I suppose it's time for me to test version 8, though.

 

[MisterSavage]

One big question I have is - If I did decide to leave 1PW and migrate to something else (Bitwarden, Strongbox, etc.), does anyone know if the export of all my 1pw data from v7 is easier/harder to import into something else than v8? Or is there no major difference.

I did it over a year ago, but the import of my 1PW data into BW went generally well, but there were some parts that were a mess. One cool thing about 1PW is that I could have different categories such as WiFi Router passwords and there was no direct correlation in my BW vault for that so I had to clean up things like that.

One thing that upset me during exporting my 1PW data is that I realized it had stored some very sensitive data (SSN, phone numbers, etc) from when I signed up for websites. I didn't realize it had done this because it wasn't displaying it.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

Thanks for writing this -- very good to know it's possible!

Right now my family is very happily using v7 (with subscription) but I've been hesitant to move to v8. ("If it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality). I suppose it's time for me to test version 8, though.

The only issue I had, the extension would only work with one of them.

 

[svenmany]

You bring this up over and over and over again! How often do you think it is necessary? I have explained this before, but I’ll do it one last time.

The menubar app for 1Password is not just to facilitate working with a browser. It provides a convenient shortcut to the "Quick Access" of passwords (a small popup window). It also maintains the unlocked state of 1Password. If I'm within the timeout window, I can relaunch 1Password without have to unlocked it again. The menubar app is a light-weight version of the whole app with a much smaller memory footprint.

I've starting playing with Bitwarden; the lack of that feature is kind of painful. It's possible I'm missing something in its settings, but I've looked and don't see a way to leave something light-weight running to keep the vault unlocked and provide other functionality.

Password AutoFill is an Apple feature that other browser providers have not yet chosen to incorporate into their software.

I think both Firefox and Chrome offer autofill. I don't use it, but both of their settings mention it.

 

[svenmany]

One thing that upset me during exporting my 1PW data is that I realized it had stored some very sensitive data (SSN, phone numbers, etc) from when I signed up for websites. I didn't realize it had done this because it wasn't displaying it.

I haven't run version 7 in a while, but I recall there being a setting to display form fields on password entries. Those are the fields which were filled in the browser when auto-saving a password. Perhaps that's what that sensitive data was.

 

[MisterSavage]

I haven't run version 7 in a while, but I recall there being a setting to display form fields on password entries. Those are the fields which were filled in the browser when auto-saving a password. Perhaps that's what that sensitive data was.

It absolutely wasn't a password and I never have auto-save on. For example, when you sign up to a website and they make you enter your SSN to verify your identity. It was data such as that.

 

[svenmany]

It absolutely wasn't a password and I never have auto-save on. For example, when you sign up to a website and they make you enter your SSN to verify your identity. It was data such as that.

Yeah, those are the form fields I was talking about. I guess I don't know exactly what triggers 1Password 7 to save them, but there is a setting to display them.