MP 14,8 2023 Mac Pro is very useful

[SDAVE]

I've been seeing a lot of negativity about the Mac Pro 2023 being "useless".

Majority of people who need the 2023 MP do not post on forums here or anywhere.

These are production companies that have PCIe cards that need to be put into the new Mac Pro. Music, Video, Etc. Colorists, Music producers, editors, and so on.

A lot of these production companies "lease" Macs and they swap it every 12-36 months. They have endless supply of money so the $3,000 that's extra on top of a similar performing Mac Studio M2 is not a big deal for them.

To me, being in this field, $3,000 is better than the $10,000+ that the 2019 Mac Pro cost.

Now is this a niche market? You bet it is. Are you part of it? Most likely not. Are you even aware of this field and how it fully functions? Nope.

To me, this is a good way of Apple to get rid of Intel overall. They are going to go to 3nm with the M3 and most likely we will see PCIe 5.0, increased RAM/GPU performance, and possibly dGPU support. The Mac Pro 2019 case has A LOT of head room for a higher clocked SoC, so don't be surprised if they do a M3 Extreme or some new line just for the Mac Pro down the line. They are not trying to kill the Mac Pro, they understand that certain conditions require a desktop/PCIe expansion slots.

So take a chill pill.

 

[impulse462]

"I work in an admittedly niche field, and since this new computer works better for my chosen field than the previous one, everyone else should sit calmly while this new computer addresses only my needs. I also have the audacity to tell everyone to chill solely based on the fact that this new computer directly addresses my needs and loses functionality the previous computer had."

 

[avro707]

"I work in an admittedly niche field, and since this new computer works better for my chosen field than the previous one, everyone else should sit calmly while this new computer addresses only my needs. I also have the audacity to tell everyone to chill solely based on the fact that this new computer directly addresses my needs and loses functionality the previous computer had."

Well said.

 

[SDAVE]

"I work in an admittedly niche field, and since this new computer works better for my chosen field than the previous one, everyone else should sit calmly while this new computer addresses only my needs. I also have the audacity to tell everyone to chill solely based on the fact that this new computer directly addresses my needs and loses functionality the previous computer had."

You proved my point. You clearly aren't in this market.

Move to a PC.

 

[ovbacon]

A lot of these production companies "lease" Macs and they swap it every 12-36 months. They have endless supply of money so the $3,000 that's extra on top of a similar performing Mac Studio M2 is not a big deal for them.

This statement makes no sense to me at all. These companies you speak of lease mac's, have endless supply of money (like you seriously wrote this) and thus 3k is no problem.... But they lease so there is no 3k on top of anything. There is a lease agreement with someone that provides the machines and that determines what they get and how much they pay each month for it. If you actually have personal knowledge about a specific company and buying strategy and usage, then feel free to speak of that exact example but the have a general idea of "this is what these kind of companies do" is just not helpful.

Having worked for tech (and for the hollywood film industry) startups, I have not seen the above mentioned. At one startup in particular, where we used mainly mac's, we would always buy them outright, like any regular person, and we would "test" a lot of our software on "extra" brand new machines (MBP, Mini's, MBA, iMac, Pro's) that we would buy, test on for two/three days and then return. rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat...

I'm not saying that there isn't a good fit for the new Pro but I find your reasoning flawed.

 

[Xenobius]

"I work in an admittedly niche field, and since this new computer works better for my chosen field than the previous one, everyone else should sit calmly while this new computer addresses only my needs. I also have the audacity to tell everyone to chill solely based on the fact that this new computer directly addresses my needs and loses functionality the previous computer had."

"... and all those who criticise the Mac Pro 2013 should move to a PC"

Once again - this is what the Workstation Class Machine means to Apple:

 

[Mac3Duser]

These are production companies that have PCIe cards that need to be put into the new Mac Pro. Music, Video, Etc. Colorists, Music producers, editors, and so on.

ok ! could you give me the references of these cards for colorists? I know for the moment 4 types of cards for the new mac pro : Pro tools HDX, video capture, storage and ethernet pcie cards

 

[Yebubbleman]

I've been seeing a lot of negativity about the Mac Pro 2023 being "useless".

Majority of people who need the 2023 MP do not post on forums here or anywhere.

These are production companies that have PCIe cards that need to be put into the new Mac Pro. Music, Video, Etc. Colorists, Music producers, editors, and so on.

A lot of these production companies "lease" Macs and they swap it every 12-36 months. They have endless supply of money so the $3,000 that's extra on top of a similar performing Mac Studio M2 is not a big deal for them.

To me, being in this field, $3,000 is better than the $10,000+ that the 2019 Mac Pro cost.

Now is this a niche market? You bet it is. Are you part of it? Most likely not. Are you even aware of this field and how it fully functions? Nope.

To me, this is a good way of Apple to get rid of Intel overall. They are going to go to 3nm with the M3 and most likely we will see PCIe 5.0, increased RAM/GPU performance, and possibly dGPU support. The Mac Pro 2019 case has A LOT of head room for a higher clocked SoC, so don't be surprised if they do a M3 Extreme or some new line just for the Mac Pro down the line. They are not trying to kill the Mac Pro, they understand that certain conditions require a desktop/PCIe expansion slots.

So take a chill pill.

A few things:

1. There won't be dGPU support in any Apple Silicon Mac. They could socket the SoC and sell replacement upgrades. But that's the best you'll see in the "Upgrade-able GPU" department without a serious wholesale change to the system architecture. People need to stop thinking that dGPUs on these things will happen when Apple has very clearly stated numerous times that this is not how they want Apple Silicon to work.

2. While a 2023 Mac Pro with 192GB of RAM and any M2 Ultra GPU core count ought to utterly destroy any single-GPU configuration 2019 Mac Pro (with any Xeon CPU) at 192GB of RAM in both benchmarks and real-world applications, there are definitely those (particularly those that need more RAM or more GPUs) for whom this new Mac Pro won't cut it. If you needed a Mac Pro to have more than 192GB of RAM or if your plan was to buy a lower-end model and expand its RAM or GPU later on, I can totally see how this release wouldn't work for you.

3. Aftermarket expansion and augmentation undeniably suffers under the Apple Silicon model. Then again, aftermarket expansion, even on a 2019 Mac Pro was always somewhat of a joke compared to what could be done on an HP Z workstation, a Dell Precision tower, or pretty much any custom PC tower. Those lamenting that you can't put in a proper GPU upgrade after the fact don't realize how terrible that experience was even on the Mac Pro's best of days. You have no support for anything NVIDIA and your only serious GPU options had to be Apple-sanctioned (MPX wasn't an open standard, last I checked) AMD cards. So, lamenting loss of aftermarket GPUs I get to a point...but only to a point. Past that and it's somewhat ridiculous. Not being able to upgrade RAM on a workstation sucks, but unfortunately, that's the Apple Silicon model. I don't know what people were expecting. Socketing the SoC is literally the only thing that they could've done differently and that they will be able to do differently going forward. Welcome to Apple Silicon.

4. The PCIe switchers isn't a good omen, but certainly, if no real-world application of PCIe cards in a 2023 Mac Pro suffers as a result, then we're all just crying at a spec sheet for no reason. I suspect there's a lot of "crying at a spec sheet for no reason" happening here. But I don't believe that to be every instance of grief that people have over this new Mac Pro.

5. Most of complaints and debates on these forums stem from a lack of empathy over others' fear, uncertainty, and doubt, most of which stems from the fact that most people on here are Mac fans that are more savvy about Apple's marketing and less savvy about the technical implications of what actually exists under the hood. That's not to say that there aren't likely to be 2019 Mac Pro users who will look at the 2023 Mac Pro with alarm and correctly think that machine won't serve them . Just that there are those who, like you said, aren't in the target demographic and have yet to come to terms with the fact that Apple is not the right place for them anyway.

 

[chfilm]

ok ! could you give me the references of these cards for colorists? I know for the moment 4 types of cards for the new mac pro : Pro tools HDX, video capture, storage and ethernet pcie cards

DeckLink | Blackmagic Design

DeckLink are high performance capture cards for Mac, Windows and Linux with support for 12G-SDI and 8K.

www.blackmagicdesign.com

I think even though those are called video capture cards they are in fact more commonly used as video capture cards For editors and colorists.

 

[orionquest]

So, lamenting loss of aftermarket GPUs I get to a point...but only to a point. Past that and it's somewhat ridiculous.

Still downplaying the lack of GPU upgrades, at what point does it become ridiculous?

Here is the answer, it's only ridiculous because you can't.

 

[AndreeOnline]

In the OP's defense: the MP23 is a very useful computer. Just like the Mac Studio can be.

But there's no denying that if we could regard the -Silicon M-chips as 'integrated graphics' and Apple could find a way to keep the MPX modules and AMD GPUs—they would have really been on to someting. Across the whole lineup.

The base Mac Pro would come with no GPU, but you could put a couple in there if you needed.

The only thing that ages faster than defending GPU-less Mac Pros is whining about Apple's business decisions. It's one thing to speculate before the fact. But to wine afterwards.... well.

 

[rm5]

I've been seeing a lot of negativity about the Mac Pro 2023 being "useless".

Majority of people who need the 2023 MP do not post on forums here or anywhere.

These are production companies that have PCIe cards that need to be put into the new Mac Pro. Music, Video, Etc. Colorists, Music producers, editors, and so on.

A lot of these production companies "lease" Macs and they swap it every 12-36 months. They have endless supply of money so the $3,000 that's extra on top of a similar performing Mac Studio M2 is not a big deal for them.

To me, being in this field, $3,000 is better than the $10,000+ that the 2019 Mac Pro cost.

Now is this a niche market? You bet it is. Are you part of it? Most likely not. Are you even aware of this field and how it fully functions? Nope.

To me, this is a good way of Apple to get rid of Intel overall. They are going to go to 3nm with the M3 and most likely we will see PCIe 5.0, increased RAM/GPU performance, and possibly dGPU support. The Mac Pro 2019 case has A LOT of head room for a higher clocked SoC, so don't be surprised if they do a M3 Extreme or some new line just for the Mac Pro down the line. They are not trying to kill the Mac Pro, they understand that certain conditions require a desktop/PCIe expansion slots.

So take a chill pill.

THANK YOU!!!

Yes, it's largely companies buying these machines, not individuals. You explained this perfectly, and everyone needs to read this. I know quite a few people working in the video/production industry, so I have a low-level understanding of how it works. I don't know the specifics (software, hardware, etc. used by those companies), but what I DO know is that COMPANIES are buying these, NOT individuals.

You are 300% right, @SDAVE! Of course you are—you work in the industry.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

THANK YOU!!!

Yes, it's largely companies buying these machines, not individuals. You explained this perfectly, and everyone needs to read this. I know quite a few people working in the video/production industry, so I have a low-level understanding of how it works. I don't know the specifics (software, hardware, etc. used by those companies), but what I DO know is that COMPANIES are buying these, NOT individuals.

You are 300% right, @SDAVE! Of course you are—you work in the industry.

I know plenty of people in media production companies too, but NONE that I have spoken to are interested in buying 2023 Mac Pros. I literally haven’t met one person who would buy one or whose company is buying them.

Of course, this is just my personal observation, limited in scope, but the people I know are the types who tend to get very excited about new generations of Mac Pros, and some work in companies with plenty of funds for the latest tech.

This time around there’s no interest.

They’re either happy with their 2019 Mac Pro, happy with their Mac Studio, or they’re shifting to PCs.

This doesn’t mean the 2023 Mac Pro isn’t useful, it’s just that it’s not worth the investment for many. It was a VERY different story in 2019.

 

[DrEGPU]

I think the relatively easy upgrade-ability of the 2010-2012 Mac Pro’s is what kept them alive and useful for so long. As the D700 GPUs in the 2013 trashcan Mac pros became more and more out of date, the 2012 Mac Pros could have 1080Ti’s, then 2080Ti’s, and 6800XT’s.

I could be wrong, but it seems like 2023 Mac Pro is in danger of being out of date soon, while the 2019 Mac Pro might limp on past it, with it’s ability to add newer GPU’s.

It might make sense for the next Mac Pro to have an ultrafast backplane into which you could “slot in” as many M3’s (M4’s?) as you need. Then again, the MPX slots didn’t last long…

 

[zapmymac]

With Apple clearly telling us where they see their Pro machine used, I see it as an opportunity for Wintel machines to step up their game, make a great looking chassis (that sits in a closet or under desk) and start spending money to market their machines that can be loaded to the gills with RAM, and GPU's.

Providing your software will run on Windows and/or Linux...

If you need a machine today, and Apple Mac Pro doesn't cut it, you shop elsewhere today, not hold out for the M3. It will not have a dedicated NVIDIA/AMD GPU and 1.5TB of RAM...possibly ever.

YouTubers / TikTok'rs, and social media is where the money seems to be located, and Apple is clearly chasing that.

It’s a new chapter for Apple, for better or worse.

 

[rm5]

Providing your software will run on Windows and/or Linux...

that's the problem with many people's workflows (including mine), is that it's Mac-reliant. So since people (including me) are so locked into the ecosystem, it's really hard to switch out of it. That's why being reliant on specific software kinda sucks, because then you're made to use one single platform (Mac in this case). The same thing can happen in reverse, too.

Everyone that I've talked to says, "Oh, just forget about it and switch to Windows" but obviously, that comes at a cost. I can't just "stop thinking about it" and switch, that's just not how it works.

EDIT: Not only does everyone need to read the first post in this thread, but also everyone needs to watch this video.

 

[zapmymac]

that's the problem with many people's workflows (including mine), is that it's Mac-reliant. So since people (including me) are so locked into the ecosystem, it's really hard to switch out of it. That's why being reliant on specific software kinda sucks, because then you're made to use one single platform (Mac in this case). The same thing can happen in reverse, too.

Everyone that I've talked to says, "Oh, just forget about it and switch to Windows" but obviously, that comes at a cost. I can't just "stop thinking about it" and switch, that's just not how it works.

EDIT: Not only does everyone need to read the first post in this thread, but also everyone needs to watch this video.

Neil’s videos are interesting to be honest, even if you’re not in his business area.

 

[rm5]

Now is this a niche market? You bet it is. Are you part of it? Most likely not. Are you even aware of this field and how it fully functions? Nope.

I don't think it's safe to assume this

 

[Mac3Duser]

that's the problem with many people's workflows (including mine), is that it's Mac-reliant. So since people (including me) are so locked into the ecosystem, it's really hard to switch out of it. That's why being reliant on specific software kinda sucks, because then you're made to use one single platform (Mac in this case). The same thing can happen in reverse, too.

Everyone that I've talked to says, "Oh, just forget about it and switch to Windows" but obviously, that comes at a cost. I can't just "stop thinking about it" and switch, that's just not how it works.

what is this software ?

 

[Basic75]

Not being able to upgrade RAM on a workstation sucks, but unfortunately, that's the Apple Silicon model. I don't know what people were expecting.

I was expecting them to add an external memory bus to the SoC, and enough DIMM slots for 1-2 TB of RAM. A Mac Pro without external RAM would just use the RAM on the SoC. A Mac Pro with external RAM installed would switch the on-package RAM to act like an additional cache layer for that slower external RAM.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I was expecting them to add an external memory bus to the SoC, and enough DIMM slots for 1-2 TB of RAM. A Mac Pro without external RAM would just use the RAM on the SoC. A Mac Pro with external RAM installed would switch the on-package RAM to act like an additional cache layer for that slower external RAM.

Nice thought. But they definitely don't believe in RAM that's anywhere other than the SoC. It's a shame that they didn't give it an SoC that at least went as high in RAM support as the 16-core Xeon W did at 768GB. My guess is that they made a calcultated risk as to how many users they'd alienate over however long of a time it takes for them to get back to being able to support that kind of RAM amount.

 

[Basic75]

Nice thought. But they definitely don't believe in RAM that's anywhere other than the SoC.

I wouldn't be surprised if they simply didn't have enough pins to implement an external memory bus, even a relatively small one. Like, how much memory bandwidth do you need for these 1-2TB external RAM if you have up to 192GB of 1024bit wide LPDDR5 acting as L4 cache?

 

[Miha_v]

To me, this is a good way of Apple to get rid of Intel overall. They are going to go to 3nm with the M3 and most likely we will see PCIe 5.0, increased RAM/GPU performance, and possibly dGPU support.

Any source on this dGPU support, or is this pure speculation with absolutely no meat?

Dedicated graphic cards are still far superior in GPU rendering. PC for around 2500$ with a strong GPU literally obliterates the new Mac pro for 10.000$ here. Until dGPU support is available, those PCI slots have most of their potential lost for majority of professionals.

 

[MacProFCP]

I've been seeing a lot of negativity about the Mac Pro 2023 being "useless".

Majority of people who need the 2023 MP do not post on forums here or anywhere.

These are production companies that have PCIe cards that need to be put into the new Mac Pro. Music, Video, Etc. Colorists, Music producers, editors, and so on.

A lot of these production companies "lease" Macs and they swap it every 12-36 months. They have endless supply of money so the $3,000 that's extra on top of a similar performing Mac Studio M2 is not a big deal for them.

To me, being in this field, $3,000 is better than the $10,000+ that the 2019 Mac Pro cost.

Now is this a niche market? You bet it is. Are you part of it? Most likely not. Are you even aware of this field and how it fully functions? Nope.

To me, this is a good way of Apple to get rid of Intel overall. They are going to go to 3nm with the M3 and most likely we will see PCIe 5.0, increased RAM/GPU performance, and possibly dGPU support. The Mac Pro 2019 case has A LOT of head room for a higher clocked SoC, so don't be surprised if they do a M3 Extreme or some new line just for the Mac Pro down the line. They are not trying to kill the Mac Pro, they understand that certain conditions require a desktop/PCIe expansion slots.

So take a chill pill.

I understand your point and respectfully disagree 100%.

I have owned ever Mac tower since the G4 and am very disappointed with this iteration. Apple took away functionality yet raised the base-line price.

Yes, the top of the line 2023 MacPro is far cheaper than even a mid-grade 2019, but that’s not the big issue. The issue is what to you get for it? A Studio with PCIe? That’s not what we want. We want a Mac Pro in the truest sense of the name. We want:

1. A customizable machine that can be outfitted based on individual needs. You can’t do that without ram and GPU options.

2. A machine that has a universally better / faster chipset than available anywhere else. The MacPro was once advertised as the fastest computer on the market. Now it is just the fastest MacPro.

3. Prior to 2019, the MacPro was reasonably priced as a high end Mac. Now it is priced to push people away from it.

4. There are other issues too: the displays cannot be connected to a PCIe card. So no matter how you configure this, you’re stuck using thunderbolt for displays.

There are benefits to the Mac Pro such as two additional thunderbolt ports and the ability to add USB 3 / 4 data ports via PCIe. And, unlike the 2019, each thunderbolt port has its own controller, so, in essence, while you have a few less thunderbolt ports than in 2019, your getting nearly double the controllers.

Also, the media encoder, Afterburner, is a separate section of the SOC and therefore doesn’t use (much) processing power allowing for significant multi-tasking.

My take is that Apple was taking crap for the delays and came out with an M2 Mac Pro to satisfy that. I hope that the M3 MacPro will fix, or at least address, the very understandable criticism.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

"I work in an admittedly niche field, and since this new computer works better for my chosen field than the previous one, everyone else should sit calmly while this new computer addresses only my needs. I also have the audacity to tell everyone to chill solely based on the fact that this new computer directly addresses my needs and loses functionality the previous computer had."

Your silly sarcasm fails to acknowledge that the OP said another MP jump likely is coming with the 3nm generation. [Which is happening right now.] Chill...