A gamer's lament: Apple please let us game on the Mac!

[Colstan]

On the other hand what was he gonna say? “Yeah we suck for gaming”? He’s not gonna talk down his product, and if they are even lobbying companies for ports they wouldn’t tell anyone (it’s Apple, after all).

Mallet could have said the same thing that myself and others have pointed out in this forum. Something along the lines of "we're working with Larian on Baldur's Gate 3, worked with 4A on Metro: Exodus for Apple Silicon and continue to work with Unity to bring a great gaming experience to the Mac". That's all public knowledge. Anything would have been better than a muted "sounds good". He didn't even bother trying to sound interested and wanted to move on to the next canned response.

I started thinking “well if you use x distro and y desktop environment, etc.) sure it’s easy enough to say but that’s hardly general knowledge.

I think most technically-minded Mac users have had a Linux phase. Elementary OS is a great example. At first, it appears to be an approximation of the Mac experience. You can have your Mac and eat it too. You may even be able to play most, if not all games on it. Of course, the number of asterisks after these statements could fill a spreadsheet.

As limited as the Mac is in some ways, I don't have to worry about maintaining the OS and dropping to the command line when I want to do something outside of the default applications. If I want to, then macOS is certified UNIX, the only desktop operating system that is, but I don't need to. Linux may work with more games than the Mac, but Microsoft will always remain the king of compatibility. Windows comes with its own significant compromises, we all know those.

That leaves desktop Linux in this weird middle area. It mainly appeals to people who either enjoy tinkering with the operating system constantly, or have a philosophical belief over what they perceive to be "freedom" in software. I like open source, it has its place, but it's hardly the panacea that hardcore Linux users claim it is.

From my perspective, the Mac gives me most of the benefits of Linux, Apple tends to respect user privacy, and it's usually obvious whether an app or game is going to work on macOS. Each platform has its tradeoffs, and I chose the Mac, despite losing backwards compatibility with old programs and access to Windows-only games.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Ritchie is such a fanboy.

I don't know how anyone enjoys or gets much use out of his content.

When it's this biased, I find it useless.
It's hype generation propaganda and little more

 

[mi7chy]

Ritchie is such a fanboy. I do like what he has to say, but he's so biased/pro apple, that the question was such a puff ball question. I have to disagree the term "These systems make great gaming platforms" I know i can be biased but the current MPB is not a great platform for gaming.

Largest increase of Mac marketshare is the MBA M1 8GB which doesn't have enough RAM for basic RPG like Baldur's Gate 3, has unplayable 20 fps on legacy Shadow of the Tomb Raider and costs about 2x more XBox One X/PS5. That isn't the definition of a great gaming platform. Maybe inexperience since Apple hasn't been a relevant gaming platform since the 1980s Apple II days on top of his fanboyism. I blame it on new Apple management. Difference was the 1980s was co-run by an engineer, Woz, who appreciated ability to game while management after that probably wanted to distance from gaming since they want to market their products as "pro". Too bad it backfired since a strong graphics processor is also beneficial for GPU compute applications and has become the main processor while CPU is now the coprocessor.

 

[Irishman]

Well it does say new platforms, which I suppose could mean Linux, but are we sure Bungie won't make a game for macOS?

I didn’t notice the “new platforms” language on it. You might be onto something here. Platforms means at least 2, so, if Sony has no plans to bring Destiny 2 to MacOS, then what 2 other platforms is it not already on?

 

[mi7chy]

That leaves desktop Linux in this weird middle area.

Linux is still further ahead of MacOS.

If a PC can run Linux then it can multiboot Windows for gaming which can't be done with Apple Silicon.

More native Linux games > native MacOS AS games.

Linux Proton/Wine further ahead in compatibility, performance and doesn't require subscription compared to Crossover/Parallels. For example, Linux can run God of War, Cyberpunk 2077, Doom Eternal, etc. that AS can't.

 

[Irishman]

I don't know how anyone enjoys or gets much use out of his content.

When it's this biased, I find it useless.
It's hype generation propaganda and little more

Ritchie is such a fanboy. I do like what he has to say, but he's so biased/pro apple, that the question was such a puff ball question. I have to disagree the term "These systems make great gaming platforms" I know i can be biased but the current MPB is not a great platform for gaming.

I do think it based on this interview Apple is looking to improve gaming, but with the consolidation of the publishers, I wonder what will come of it.

Oh, so did you finally order one of the MBPs? What’s been your gaming experience on your MBP?

ETA: yikes, sorry Mike, I managed to mangle yours and turbineseaplane’s messages. My question about the new MBP is just for you.

 

[JouniS]

That leaves desktop Linux in this weird middle area. It mainly appeals to people who either enjoy tinkering with the operating system constantly, or have a philosophical belief over what they perceive to be "freedom" in software. I like open source, it has its place, but it's hardly the panacea that hardcore Linux users claim it is.

Desktop Linux has found its niche in virtual machines.

macOS used to be a good desktop *nix around Snow Leopard, but it has gone downhill since then. With every major release, more and more things work in the iOS way rather than in the Unix way. When you upgrade, you often have to spend a day or two fixing things, because Apple likes to break things that have worked for decades. Many of the standard tools included in macOS are ancient, and the Linux versions are sometimes much faster on the same hardware. (Data processing scripts using grep and sort in particular benefit from running in a Linux virtual machine.) And since I upgraded my M1 MBA to Monterey, the default C++ compiler has started crashing when compiling some software I'm working on, making it mostly unusable.

These days the best desktop *nix you can have is probably an Ubuntu virtual machine inside macOS.

 

[Colstan]

Linux is still further ahead of MacOS.

If a PC can run Linux then it can multiboot Windows for gaming which can't be done with Apple Silicon.

More native Linux games > native MacOS AS games.

Linux Proton/Wine further ahead in compatibility, performance and doesn't require subscription compared to Crossover/Parallels. For example, Linux can run God of War, Cyberpunk 2077, Doom Eternal, etc. that AS can't.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I meant that Linux falls within a zone between Microsoft's historical backward compatibility and the Mac's push for tight integration while trimming the cruft every ten years. The Mac is constantly being reinvented, while Microsoft makes sure your proprietary spreadsheet program from 1985 will work just fine.

Linux exists somewhere between that range, which means you might get 70% of PC games working on Linux, to varying degrees of success, but as you said, there isn't much reason to do that if you can dual-boot into Windows. The primary reason to play games on Linux is for ideological, not technical reasons.

These days the best desktop *nix you can have is probably an Ubuntu virtual machine inside macOS.

We've been discussing the average user that just wants to play a game. If that is the case for highly technical users, then great, but nobody is playing their games on an Ubuntu VM inside macOS.

 

[Colstan]

Getting back to the hardcore gamer mindset, I was enjoying a video that Jay released today over on his popular channel, the topic being about brands that you can trust and those that you can't. He was rightly going off on Nvidia for not caring about gamers and being more concerned with corporate interests when he decided to mention a certain fruit company. I didn't expect Apple to be brought up, let alone be called an alternative word for manure, but here we are.

Start listening around the 15:30 mark, halfway through the Nvidia rant:

He tells us why he dislikes the current state of Nvidia, but just takes a random shot at Apple, without explaining his thinking. I would note that Jayztwocents has never reviewed a Mac or other Apple products, which makes me question his objectivity. "Well, they make great products, but..." I always enjoy a good backhanded compliment.

The reason I post this is because this is the mindset that Mac gamers are up against. Jay isn't the only one that thinks this way, he just happens to have a large platform to voice his distain.

If you want a (small) amount of positivity after that, this reddit post by an indie developer highlights how easy it was for them to get their game working on the Mac.

"in our case it was really easy to get it working on macOS. A few tweaks here and there to make it work on M1, and that was it. I get that triple-A titles that are built around specific hardware and software aren't easy to port, but most indie games are because they use generic features that are available on most platforms. On my M1 Pro it takes about 5 minutes to build the game, which is crazy fast compared to my desktop which takes 20+ minutes.

It's almost no extra effort to get it working on other operating systems, but it saves a lot of pain for people who want to play the game. Just my take on it. A bit of the reason I wanted to post, to motivate people to actually take those extra minutes and make a Mac or Linux version."

 

[mi7chy]

I don't follow JayzTwoCents but see nothing wrong with his assessment which is shared amongst most savvy consumers. Consumers don't want an Intel CPU monopoly, 14nm stagnation and Intel tax so they support AMD CPU with their money. Remember when it was mostly an Intel only laptop market and prices were like $3k+? Now we have ~$1k AMD laptops with equivalent performance but better power consumption. People also don't want an Nvidia monopoly, stagnation in the GPU market space and Nvidia tax so they're happy there's an alternative with AMD GPU and soon to be Intel GPU. Apple was supposed to be the savior from Intel but happily replaced Intel tax with their own Apple tax while throwing x64 compatibility out the window and have lock-in/out control tendencies and how you use your device. Guess it was too much to expect Apple to work with AMD to get custom x64 built on latest TSMC node. In the end, there's no righteous company but rather companies that are more evil or less evil. As HayzTwoCents brought up AMD was doing right until they sh*t on consumers with the 6500xt but they're still relatively less evil. Fortunately for competition you can shift your spending except if you're cemented in Apple where your only remedy is to ask for more.

 

[Colstan]

I don't follow JayzTwoCents but see nothing wrong with his assessment which is shared amongst most savvy consumers.

That's a lot to comment on, so I will say that I agree with both you and Jay about the PC market in general. My complaint wasn't that he doesn't like Apple, but that he gives no reasons for not liking Apple. I've seen this attitude going back decades, where the hardcore PC crowd think that Apple is bad, PC is good, but have difficulty explaining exactly why. I realize that this is somewhat subjective, because it's not like I can take a poll among that group, but that's been my personal observation. I used to think that way myself, so from that vantage point, I understand their ignorance.

Apple was supposed to be the savior from Intel but happily replaced Intel tax with their own Apple tax while throwing x64 compatibility out the window and have lock-in/out control tendencies and how you use your device. Guess it was too much to expect Apple to work with AMD to get custom x64 built on latest TSMC node.

Apple never promised that they would lower prices for the Apple Silicon switch. Nor have they historically stuck with industry standards. The Intel era is the oddball among their CPU choices. Just look at the 6502, 68000 and PowerPC decades. Apple has its own rhyme and follows a strict vertical integration strategy. It makes sense that they would switch to their own chips because that is the company's historical philosophy.

Regardless, I'm going to disagree that Apple made the wrong move by going with Apple Silicon. The past six quarters have been all time revenue highs with the Mac. Losing x86 compatibility may have been difficult for some users, but Apple made up for any losses with new and returning customers. That's not just pandemic buying, because the Mac is gaining share in the traditional personal computer space.

Also, I think that moving away from Boot Camp is an overall positive for the Mac as a platform. Developers no longer have the excuse of saying "just use Windows". They either have to provide a Mac version or stop serving that market. The Mac is mature enough to survive without the Windows crutch and the decades of cruft inside modern x86 CPUs. Linux users now find themselves in that position, "just use Windows", which is not a place that Apple wants to be in.

 

[diamond.g]

Also, I think that moving away from Boot Camp is an overall positive for the Mac as a platform. Developers no longer have the excuse of saying "just use Windows". They either have to provide a Mac version or stop serving that market. The Mac is mature enough to survive without the Windows crutch and the decades of cruft inside modern x86 CPUs. Linux users now find themselves in that position, "just use Windows", which is not a place that Apple wants to be in.

No, now they just say use crossover or parallels...

 

[Colstan]

No, now they just say use crossover or parallels...

I've heard various developers address the issue, both for and against releasing for the Apple Silicon, but have never heard that argument from any serious developer. I'm going to assume that was a tongue-in-cheek comment and not meant to be literal.

 

[pmiles]

Bootcamp was a godsend to the Mac... it allowed those who had to work in both environments, an opportunity to do so natively in one setup. Gone were the days of switch boxes et al. I know this to be true because it was the only reason I even switched to the Mac platform in the first place.

The second benefit of bootcamp was the fact that you could play Windows games natively as well... at least while driver support was available. Again, no need for running games in emulation mode. Parallels et al are all emulators. You're not playing the game in it's native environment.

So the deal here is this, the developers didn't hop on the Mac gaming bandwagon, Apple hopped on the PC gaming bandwagon by offering bootcamp and of course having the INTEL architecture.

With the death of bootcamp and the switch to ARM, Apple has essentially hopped off the PC gaming bandwagon. The developers never were on the Mac gaming bandwagon to begin with, so they aren't going to get on it now. ARM has killed gaming on the Mac in anything but emulation mode. Blizzard is not going to support ARM with their products. ArenaNet isn't either and they relied on an emulator all this time. Same with many of the other games that have been available on the Mac that were traditionally PC only.

ARM isn't opening up gaming on a Mac. Even if Windows went full on ARM (they never went UNIX core even thought they dabbled in it), it still doesn't open up gaming on a Mac because they don't share the same graphic chipsets. With INTEL architecture, we did.

So lament away and keep smoking that copium or hopium because Mac gaming has come to a standstill. Apple may sell a lot of these things, but they are being sold to people who really have no need to ever use Windows. So it's more a cult thing again.

List one major game developer that is developing a Mac game (ARM native, no emulation) for the desktop to be released within 2022 and beyond that requires the kind of horsepower of a true PC desktop game and you will have an argument that Mac gaming is not at a standstill.

I doubt you will find one unless you start the company yourself.

 

[diamond.g]

Bootcamp was a godsend to the Mac... it allowed those who had to work in both environments, an opportunity to do so natively in one setup. Gone were the days of switch boxes et al. I know this to be true because it was the only reason I even switched to the Mac platform in the first place.

The second benefit of bootcamp was the fact that you could play Windows games natively as well... at least while driver support was available. Again, no need for running games in emulation mode. Parallels et al are all emulators. You're not playing the game in it's native environment.

So the deal here is this, the developers didn't hop on the Mac gaming bandwagon, Apple hopped on the PC gaming bandwagon by offering bootcamp and of course having the INTEL architecture.

With the death of bootcamp and the switch to ARM, Apple has essentially hopped off the PC gaming bandwagon. The developers never were on the Mac gaming bandwagon to begin with, so they aren't going to get on it now. ARM has killed gaming on the Mac in anything but emulation mode. Blizzard is not going to support ARM with their products. ArenaNet isn't either and they relied on an emulator all this time. Same with many of the other games that have been available on the Mac that were traditionally PC only.

ARM isn't opening up gaming on a Mac. Even if Windows went full on ARM (they never went UNIX core even thought they dabbled in it), it still doesn't open up gaming on a Mac because they don't share the same graphic chipsets. With INTEL architecture, we did.

So lament away and keep smoking that copium or hopium because Mac gaming has come to a standstill. Apple may sell a lot of these things, but they are being sold to people who really have no need to ever use Windows. So it's more a cult thing again.

List one major game developer that is developing a Mac game (ARM native, no emulation) for the desktop to be released within 2022 and beyond that requires the kind of horsepower of a true PC desktop game and you will have an argument that Mac gaming is not at a standstill.

I doubt you will find one unless you start the company yourself.

@leman would say Larian Games.

 

[diamond.g]

I've heard various developers address the issue, both for and against releasing for the Apple Silicon, but have never heard that argument from any serious developer. I'm going to assume that was a tongue-in-cheek comment and not meant to be literal.

It was mostly tongue in cheek. I mean we don't hear "major devs/publishers" talk about gaming on the Mac (they all seem to want to dabble in mobile games though) these days (I guess maybe ever?).

I had argued that Apple buying a dev/publisher house would give them a point of entry and potentially some useful IP. Everyone else here seem the think that owning GTA wound't net Apple any hardware sales (never mind them keeping the game on other platforms and making money there).

 

[leman]

ARM isn't opening up gaming on a Mac. Even if Windows went full on ARM (they never went UNIX core even thought they dabbled in it), it still doesn't open up gaming on a Mac because they don't share the same graphic chipsets. With INTEL architecture, we did.

At the same time, the simple fact is that available games often run better on ARM Macs, simply because the hardware is better. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter much whether the game uses Vulkan or Metal or a middleware like Unity, what matters whether it can run on macOS and the ARM Macs have no problems running Intel-only games (for the most time at least).

You present a fairly bleak outlook which is not really backed by the reality. Sure, ARM Macs didn’t immediately invite a huge influx of new high quality titles. But they didn’t bring an exodus of games either. Gaming on the Mac today is as good as it ever was and we get a steady stream of good games. How the situation will develop from here, time will show.

So lament away and keep smoking that copium or hopium because Mac gaming has come to a standstill. Apple may sell a lot of these things, but they are being sold to people who really have no need to ever use Windows. So it's more a cult thing again.

List one major game developer that is developing a Mac game (ARM native, no emulation) for the desktop to be released within 2022 and beyond that requires the kind of horsepower of a true PC desktop game and you will have an argument that Mac gaming is not at a standstill.

Where do you see standstill? There are at least two heavy hitter games with native ARM support scheduled to release soon: Warhammer 3 and Baldurs Gates 3 (available in early access since last year). You mentioned online games I believe? Well, WoW and Eve have native clients.

 

[maflynn]

ETA: yikes, sorry Mike, I managed to mangle yours and turbineseaplane’s messages. My question about the new MBP is just for you.

I'm still confused as to whether that question was directed towards me or not

So, to answer that question, no I've not purchased a Mac yet. I was tempted with the MBP, but for my needs, and what Apple sells it for, I just can't justify it. I'll be looking to buy one probably in two years as my daughter gets ready for college at that point and I know so much can change between then and now

 

[opeter]

The primary reason to play games on Linux is for ideological, not technical reasons.

An also financial, but that is another reason...

 

[diamond.g]

An also financial, but that is another reason...

Wait are games on Linux cheaper than on Windows?

 

[Romain_H]

Wait are games on Linux cheaper than on Windows?

At least Linux is free, whereas Windows is not.

 

[diamond.g]

At least Linux is free, whereas Windows is not.

You can totally install/run Windows without paying for it, not sure if the cost of a Windows license is really a big roadblock these days.

 

[Romain_H]

You can totally install/run Windows without paying for it, not sure if the cost of a Windows license is really a big roadblock these days.

I know, and I agree. But still, usually there is some sort of cost involved

 

[mi7chy]

Windows license key is cheap (<$20) if not free since you can often reuse old Windows 7/8 license key so must be referring to financial benefit of having Linux experience since everything backend runs on Linux so cloud, data center, network appliances, embedded, etc.

 

[diamond.g]

I know, and I agree. But still, usually there is some sort of cost involved

Windows license key is cheap (<$20) if not free since you can often reuse old Windows 7/8 license key so must be referring to financial benefit of having Linux experience since everything backend runs on Linux so cloud, data center, network appliances, embedded, etc.

So are we saying Linux gaming is better than Mac gaming?