AMD Discussion

[tuxon86]

Why it was rejected? Because Microsoft was using Mantle as the base of DX12. What is Mantle is essence? What is DX12 in essence?

Mantle is this: Low CPU overhead, Asynchronous Compute, HSA 2.0 capabilities, explicit multithreading, and direct control over hardware, graphics and compute united into single queue.

What is DirectX 12? All of above plus Direct3D 12.

What is Vulkan? All of above plus OpenGL.

What is Metal? All of above, plus bits and pieces from other APIs like OpenCL, D3D10, D3D11.

Lets stop this, its Zen thread.

It was rejected because Microsoft were already working on their own API. Having the same feature set doesn't equate that both API are the same or that one as inspired the other.

You want to stop this, easy, stop talking crap and reposting old already debunk junk. And in any case why would there be an AMD Zen in this forum section when no Mac Pro are using them and there isn't even a glimmer of hope that any will? Yea, it's just another of your AMD circle jerk who would be more at home on /r/AyMD on Reddit. Try creating thread relevant in this sub forum for a change instead of a vehicule to post AMD sponsered propaganda and anonymous blog/forum post about AMD.

 

[koyoot]

It was rejected because Microsoft were already working on their own API. Having the same feature set doesn't equate that both API are the same or that one as inspired the other.

You want to stop this, easy, stop talking crap and reposting old already debunk junk. And in any case why would there be an AMD Zen in this forum section when no Mac Pro are using them and there isn't even a glimmer of hope that any will? Yea, it's just another of your AMD circle jerk who would be more at home on /r/AyMD on Reddit. Try creating thread relevant in this sub forum for a change instead of a vehicule to post AMD sponsered propaganda and anonymous blog/forum post about AMD.

If you are posting accusations as such, you would better have any substance to them. Because otherwise this is against forum rules, to attack personally anyone.

Just because you do not like reality, or you do not want to admit you are completely wrong does not mean you have to personally attack anyone on this forum. But hey, if you cannot fight the message, better attack the messenger.

Secondly I wanted to create a thread about Zen here, because I knew people will want to discuss this architecture on this forum.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Mantle is a brainchild of DICE, game developing studio in Sweden. They started to vision it around 2008. AMD got interested in the idea most, and put the concept in reality together with DICE. The coding started early 2012. It is built from the ground up to be hardware independent, even though it was AMD's top secret project back then. Other manufacturers were allowed to add extensions in their Mantle variants. DICE had one goal in this project: thay wanted an access to the hardware. And this is the thing, why Metal, Vulkan and DX 12 are the same origin... it doesn't need to have one line same code, but it will do the same thing. Give access to the hardware.

 

[koyoot]

A brief history on Mantle to clean things up. Microsoft indeed was working on their own API, but it wasn't low-level API. Direct3D 12 was all of what it was shaping to be today, without Mantle-ish features. Then they heard Apple was working on their own, low-level API. So they just used Mantle as the functional base of D3D12.

Edit: Zarni, that is exactly what happened.

 

[cube]

SG cede it to the Kronos group, which is a comitee of hardware manufacturer.

Yes, but my point is that the core technology was created by SGI, not a committee.
And this was done way before Direct 3D was born.

 

[Zarniwoop]

"At GDC, AMD's Corpus - - was adamant that developers will see value in adopting Mantle even today, because the API is similar to D3D12, it will give developers a "big head start," he said, and we may see D3D12 launch titles "very early" as a result." - techreport.com

So the quote means, that porting code from Mantle to DX 12 is pretty straightforward.

And same can be found from this AMD's propaganda page:

https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2015/05/12/mantle-the-start-of-a-low-overhead-future

 

[tuxon86]

"At GDC, AMD's Corpus - - was adamant that developers will see value in adopting Mantle even today, because the API is similar to D3D12, it will give developers a "big head start," he said, and we may see D3D12 launch titles "very early" as a result." - techreport.com

So the quote means, that porting code from Mantle to DX 12 is pretty fast.

"because the API is similar to D3D12,"...

Which mean that DX12 isn't the same or based on Mantle, just that they're similar, like a GM is similar with a Ford functionality wise but aren't based or trading code with each other.

 

[koyoot]

Good examples: VW Golf, Skoda Superb, Audi RS3. All based on the same chassis. - Situation of Mantle, DX12, and Metal. Same chassis, different styling, different names, but mechanics are the same.

Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ - Mantle, Vulkan, LiquidVR. Same car. Its not different at all. Its the same car.

I suppose this argument will not change anything, So I suggest just to move on with Zen thread.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Porting code from Mantle to DX 12 needs low effort to complete, when DX11 > DX12 takes medium effort because "the lingual similarities between APIs will make it easy to port a Mantle-based render backend to a DirectX® 12-based one if needed or desired.As is stated in the slide I added to my previous post." https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2015/05/12/mantle-the-start-of-a-low-overhead-future

So all of these are just derivates of Mantle. And this is what Koyoot has tried to express here.

DX 11 was a motorbike, openGL a moped and Mantle, DX12 and Metal are different brands of cars. While buttons can be in a different place, it still be a car.

 

[Stacc]

Just let it go everyone. We spent pages on this in the Polaris thread. Vulkan shares some code with Mantle but DX12 and Metal do not. Koyoot is wrong so lets just move along.

 

[cube]

Probably the answer is that Microsoft developed DX12 supported by the Mantle-oriented gfx firmware.

 

[koyoot]

Probably the answer is that Microsoft developed DX12 supported by the Mantle-oriented gfx firmware.

Exact analogy here:

Good examples: VW Golf, Skoda Superb, Audi RS3. All based on the same chassis. - Situation of Mantle, DX12, and Metal. Same chassis, different styling, different names, but mechanics are the same.

Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ - Mantle, Vulkan, LiquidVR. Same car. Its not different at all. Its the same car.

I suppose this argument will not change anything, So I suggest just to move on with Zen thread.

What was told to me, for it to be understood by me, is that it was used Mantle driver. Whole API(D3D12) is build on top of it. They can differ in code, overall but the source, and the nature of the API is exactly the same.

 

[tuxon86]

Exact analogy here:

What was told to me, for it to be understood by me, is that it was used Mantle driver. Whole API(D3D12) is build on top of it. They can differ in code, overall but the source, and the nature of the API is exactly the same.

Still trying to pass yourself as an "insider" after being debunked so many time... Wow... Some never learn.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Again, if this isn't your thing, what are you doing here exactly?
Let those who enjoy the subject be in peace.

 

[tuxon86]

Again, if this isn't your thing, what are you doing here exactly?
Let those who enjoy the subject be in peace.

It's a free country..

And I was correcting Koyoot concerning Mantle (for the nth time), so I was contributing to the thread, unless you're ok with him lying about Mantle code being used in DX12 when it isn't! Also, isn't it against the rule to not declare yourself as a commercial/insider person when you're one? I know that others here have or had to explicitly declare that they were working for or advertising products. If Koyoot is an insider then he should come out and present himself as such so that we are clear that he has a motivation in pushing one product or company over others. This would be the honset thing to do, don't you think?

 

[ManuelGomes]

The only gripe is with the way you keep coming at him the way you do.
No need for that, show your point and be done with it.
This is not even the right thread for this issue.
There are a few people here (one is already gone for this kind of behavior) that seem to just reply to pick on others.
What's the point?
I've been accused of being an AMD fan, when I've never owned one single AMD product. Do I want AMD to be in a competitive position? Hell, yes. Why would I want them to sink? It's not just so that NVidia and Intel will have to lower their prices. Things aren't expensive when you make good use of them.
What I care about is that a company keeps going, if at least for the people that work there, they also need their jobs. But I guess nowadays no one gives a flying $h!t about that.
Be civil at least, when addressing others. Don't discuss the hell out of it, just state your point and leave it at that.
Said my peace.

 

[koyoot]

It's a free country..

And I was correcting Koyoot concerning Mantle (for the nth time), so I was contributing to the thread, unless you're ok with him lying about Mantle code being used in DX12 when it isn't! Also, isn't it against the rule to not declare yourself as a commercial/insider person when you're one? I know that others here have or had to explicitly declare that they were working for or advertising products. If Koyoot is an insider then he should come out and present himself as such so that we are clear that he has a motivation in pushing one product or company over others. This would be the honset thing to do, don't you think?

People from AMD claiming that all 3 APIs have root in Mantle. Exactly the same feature sets for all of the APIs. Exactly the same features in all 3 APIs, just differently approached. Similar pipelines of execution on all 3 APIs. Asynchronous Compute on all 3 APIs. HSA 2.0 Capabilities on all 3 APIs. Compute and Graphics in one queue in all 3 APIs. Exactly the same approach of error correction on Mantle/Vulkan and D3D12.

For sure there is no Mantle code in any of them.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

And to end this: http://semiaccurate.com/2014/03/18/microsoft-adopts-mantle-calls-dx12/

 

[tuxon86]

People from AMD claiming that all 3 APIs have root in Mantle. Exactly the same feature sets for all of the APIs. Exactly the same features in all 3 APIs, just differently approached. Similar pipelines of execution on all 3 APIs. Asynchronous Compute on all 3 APIs. HSA 2.0 Capabilities on all 3 APIs. Compute and Graphics in one queue in all 3 APIs. Exactly the same approach of error correction on Mantle/Vulkan and D3D12.

For sure there is no Mantle code in any of them.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

And to end this: http://semiaccurate.com/2014/03/18/microsoft-adopts-mantle-calls-dx12/

AMD may claim this but it doesn't make it so... And doing the same thing and having the same feature doesn't mean that they share one line of code.

And your link doesn't prove your point either. You can't copyright a function name and it make sense to use a similar nomenclature when developping a concurrent API. Have you ever done any coding? If you have to write a function to open a file, will you call it OpenFile() or Trigglypuff() even though someone else also used the name OpenFile() ib their code? Does that mean that you're using someone else code in your program? Is this what you believe?

 

[ManuelGomes]

Guys, give it a rest.
Can everyone believe their own side of the story and be done?

 

[koyoot]

Guys, give it a rest.
Can everyone believe their own side of the story and be done?

Im done Manuel. I provided enough sources and proofs for my claims.

 

[cube]

I think it is more about miscommunication.

 

[tuxon86]

I rest my case...

Is there any official word from Apple citing their desire to jump from the Intel bandwagon to AMD for their CPU/system? If not then why bother? Why not also discuss the possibility of moving to the IBM Power plateform, or another alternative CPU architecture? I get the backward application compatibility, but this hasn't stop Apple before.

As long as we agree that any discussion in this thread is only vaguely related to the MP...

 

[koyoot]

Is there any official word from Apple that they want to jump from AMD GPU wagon onto Nvidia?

Why there are dozens threads about GPUs, and especially Pascal Nvidia GPUs, which appear to not be on the horizon in any way shape or form for Apple hardware?

If they can be here, not related for Mac Pro, or even Apple, then this thread can also be here.

 

[tuxon86]

Is there any official word from Apple that they want to jump from AMD GPU wagon onto Nvidia?

Why there are dozens threads about GPUs, and especially Pascal Nvidia GPUs, which appear to not be on the horizon in any way shape or form for Apple hardware?

If they can be here, not related for Mac Pro, or even Apple, then this thread can also be here.

You can use an nvidia gpu in a cmp, hence why there are thread about them...

 

[cube]

Is there any official word from Apple citing their desire to jump from the Intel bandwagon to AMD for their CPU/system? If not then why bother? Why not also discuss the possibility of moving to the IBM Power plateform, or another alternative CPU architecture? I get the backward application compatibility, but this hasn't stop Apple before.

It did not stop Apple before because they were gaining Windows compatibility.