Any sign of HDR app updates for the 2021 4K ATV?

[hancox]

It's been long enough to expect some level of output from Apple's "work" here with providers (based on the keynote commentary).

Specifically:
"HEVC Dolby Vision (Profile 5)/HDR10 (Main 10 profile)/HLG up to 2160p, 60 fps"

I still do not get HLG HDR triggering for any FOX content, which *should* work on the new hardware.

YouTube is still a WIP.

Starting to get annoyed that sins of the past 4k box aren't starting to be phased out here...

 

[waw74]

if the content isn't made in that format, the aTV won't play it in that format.
it's not the box, it's the providers.

you could also get annoyed that 100% content isn't streaming in HDR. has nothing to do with apple, or the appleTV.


YouTube is *****, especially for testing things like this, just because someone tags a video as 4K HDR, doesn't mean that it was ever in 4K or HDR, it's just what some random person on the other side of the internet has decided to name that video.

 

[hancox]

if the content isn't made in that format, the aTV won't play it in that format.
it's not the box, it's the providers.

you could also get annoyed that 100% content isn't streaming in HDR. has nothing to do with apple, or the appleTV.


YouTube is *****, especially for testing things like this, just because someone tags a video as 4K HDR, doesn't mean that it was ever in 4K or HDR, it's just what some random person on the other side of the internet has decided to name that video.

Sorry, but you're off base here. The content is available from the provider in 4K HLG HDR <= 60fps, in the case of FOX. It's available via several means, but not via either the FUBO or FOX apps on ATV 4K. Those apps on other hardware, depending on the app, "work." ATV doesn't, assumingly because of the old box's lack of HLG.

I know YouTube isn't a great example, but i didn't want to single out just FUBO/FOX, as the problem is at least partially on Apple, if not fully.

 

[pmiles]

Sorry, but you're off base here. The content is available from the provider in 4K HLG HDR <= 60fps, in the case of FOX. It's available via several means, but not via either the FUBO or FOX apps on ATV 4K. Those apps on other hardware, depending on the app, "work." ATV doesn't, assumingly because of the old box's lack of HLG.

I know YouTube isn't a great example, but i didn't want to single out just FUBO/FOX, as the problem is at least partially on Apple, if not fully.

Sounds like it's the FUBO and FOX apps that are not providing the content in the format you want it in. Remember, Apple is only responsible for their apps, not third party apps. FUBO and FOX apps are the responsibility of their respective owners.

 

[hancox]

Sounds like it's the FUBO and FOX apps that are not providing the content in the format you want it in. Remember, Apple is only responsible for their apps, not third party apps. FUBO and FOX apps are the responsibility of their respective owners.

Please read my post and reply again. Thought i was clear.

The providers in question ARE providing this content in the format i want on competing similar devices. This isn't a content problem. It's an AppleTV hardware and/or app problem brought on by the shortcomings of the 2017 device. The 2021 device, and possible app updates, should remove the roadblocks.

 

[oneMadRssn]

Please read my post and reply again. Thought i was clear.

The providers in question ARE providing this content in the format i want on competing similar devices. This isn't a content problem. It's an AppleTV hardware and/or app problem brought on by the shortcomings of the 2017 device. The 2021 device, and possible app updates, should remove the roadblocks.

That's the key there. If they content providers aren't choosing not to stream that format to Apple devices, what can Apple do?

 

[amnesia0287]

That's the key there. If they content providers aren't choosing not to stream that format to Apple devices, what can Apple do?

The previous device lacked compatibility no? which is the entire reason to ask if there have been updates in the OP no?

To the OP, it may well be a few months, it really depends what the issue is. If they are using the native tvOS media player, then it should just be a matter of updating the profile for that device id, but if they are using something else, for copy protection or w/e, then it may well require deep app changes.

I’m curious to see if anyone ever tries to do 120fps sports.

 

[hancox]

The previous device lacked compatibility no? which is the entire reason to ask if there have been updates in the OP no?

To the OP, it may well be a few months, it really depends what the issue is. If they are using the native tvOS media player, then it should just be a matter of updating the profile for that device id, but if they are using something else, for copy protection or w/e, then it may well require deep app changes.

I’m curious to see if anyone ever tries to do 120fps sports.

Finally, someone gets the question.
I'm more annoyed by the pace, especially as other platforms, ahem, "just work."

Even an announcement that this should be ready for, for example, the US Football seasons in Fall, would be a major step forward. The olympics, too, but that's likely a pipe dream (both for timing, as well as for the provider).

Radio silence, especially off of the keynote, is jarring: from https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apple-unveils-the-next-generation-of-apple-tv-4k/:

Improved Video Experiences​

With A12 Bionic, Apple TV 4K now supports high frame rate HDR (High Dynamic Range) and Dolby Vision video, enabling fast-moving action at 60 frames per second (fps) to play more smoothly and appear more lifelike than ever before.1 Apple is working with leading video providers around the world, including FOX Sports, NBCUniversal, Paramount+, Red Bull TV, and Canal+, as they begin to stream in high frame rate HDR

i hated this verbiage for FOX, as they have been broadcasting 60fps HDR for a while. The ball is clearly in Apple's court here.

 

[hancox]

Still no improvement here - the state of "live" 4K TV on ATV is an absolute mess.

 

[w5jck]

Don’t know if you are old enough to remember but the changeover from SDTV to HDTV was long and excruciating. I was one of the early adopters and had to wait years to actually see much HDTV programming. I expect it is going to take a while before streaming companies offer much as far as true 4K HDR. Eventually it will become common place, but it is up to the streaming companies to make it happen. With digital TV, it took a federal (FCC) regulation to require digital by a certain date. As far as I know, there is no such regulation requiring 4K or HDR, nor do I expect one.

Any streaming device that can support 4K HDR is still limited by what the streaming companies actually stream. The ATV 4K 2021 is no exception. Apple has equipped it to handle such streaming, now it is up to the streaming companies to get their act together a develop apps for the ATV 4K that will take advantage of its ability to stream 4K HDR. The ball is no longer in Apple’s court, Apple has passed it into the streaming companies’ court, and so we wait…and wait…and wait…

 

[hancox]

Don’t know if you are old enough to remember but the changeover from SDTV to HDTV was long and excruciating. I was one of the early adopters and had to wait years to actually see much HDTV programming. I expect it is going to take a while before streaming companies offer much as far as true 4K HDR. Eventually it will become common place, but it is up to the streaming companies to make it happen. With digital TV, it took a federal (FCC) regulation to require digital by a certain date. As far as I know, there is no such regulation requiring 4K or HDR, nor do I expect one.

Any streaming device that can support 4K HDR is still limited by what the streaming companies actually stream. The ATV 4K 2021 is no exception. Apple has equipped it to handle such streaming, now it is up to the streaming companies to get their act together a develop apps for the ATV 4K that will take advantage of its ability to stream 4K HDR. The ball is no longer in Apple’s court, Apple has passed it into the streaming companies’ court, and so we wait…and wait…and wait…

I'd believe that if:

1) Competing products didn't work - most do, now, with the same source and app
2) Apple hadn't borked the "old" ATV 4K, as it pertains to HDR
3) If Apple's going to mention developers BY NAME in their own keynote, you would think this would be tee'd up, or at least close to done. Months on, and really no change.

 

[w5jck]

I'd believe that if:

1) Competing products didn't work - most do, now, with the same source and app
2) Apple hadn't borked the "old" ATV 4K, as it pertains to HDR
3) If Apple's going to mention developers BY NAME in their own keynote, you would think this would be tee'd up, or at least close to done. Months on, and really no change.

I think you are VERY naive about how the broadcast, cable/satellite, and streaming industry works. They all work at a snails pace. Broadcast and cable/satellite are not likely to offer 4K HDR, and if they do it will be through a streaming app side service. Streaming companies usually have their core subscribers addicted to their service, and are not too worried about losing them. They will proceed at a snails pace, especially since they well understand two other factors that are involved. One, there is a very limited amount of 4K HDR material available to stream, and two, most people still don't have the equipment necessary to stream 4K HDR. The same thing happened with the introduction of HDTV. Had the FCC not stepped in and forced the content providers to convert to digital HDTV, we would likely still be watching a lot of SDTV programming. The FCC has shown no indication of forcing the adoption to 4K or 4K HDR. The industry will continue to proceed at a snails pace. Once enough content is being offered in 4K HDR, we will see the pace increase, but currently there isn't much 4K HDR content even available.

 

[400]

Fortunate to have worked through PAL/SD/HD then 4k in broadcast but in the UK. A lot of effort goes into getting something right and it might be a base version such as no HDR on 4k but 50fps. HDR is happening and there are few competing views, BBC went HLG with good reason, BT went HDR I expect as it translated better for the mobile market?

But getting it down the pipe was the first effort then on the bird but thinking back to the timelines, PAL in the UK 50 or so years, then SD sort of a fuzzy cross over but HD started 2006 on Satellite then 4k 2016 (15?), the timescales dropped however the reality is 4k is a resource hog and an investment.

In the UK BT were up first (sort of) and hung onto it on their platform and only recently they let it out the bag with an app (not sure if its 4k on the app) but BBC doing HLG though not the portfolio as the big spenders for sports, but HLG stopped Apple 4k Mk1 from being an option. Its a mixed bag, a TV firm has to fit a lot into distribution today.

At least in the US there are some tests with aerial distribution, the UK it looks more ISP led via dedicated boxes. e.g I get my 4k live sports via the Virgin TV box (was with BT). Sky have their stuff on the go but with their new Sky Glass option, wonder what they will let go to Apple.

 

[hancox]

I think you are VERY naive about how the broadcast, cable/satellite, and streaming industry works. They all work at a snails pace. Broadcast and cable/satellite are not likely to offer 4K HDR, and if they do it will be through a streaming app side service. Streaming companies usually have their core subscribers addicted to their service, and are not too worried about losing them. They will proceed at a snails pace, especially since they well understand two other factors that are involved. One, there is a very limited amount of 4K HDR material available to stream, and two, most people still don't have the equipment necessary to stream 4K HDR. The same thing happened with the introduction of HDTV. Had the FCC not stepped in and forced the content providers to convert to digital HDTV, we would likely still be watching a lot of SDTV programming. The FCC has shown no indication of forcing the adoption to 4K or 4K HDR. The industry will continue to proceed at a snails pace. Once enough content is being offered in 4K HDR, we will see the pace increase, but currently there isn't much 4K HDR content even available.

You have a great deal of nerve calling me naive when 1) everything you typed has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue, and 2) I've been at this a while, and know what I'm talking about.

I'm more than aware of the issues getting 4K content out via the various means, and the differences between those means. My point is that Apple is lagging in getting the *available, already out there content* to display properly.

Example - FOX 4K content, which has been available with HDR and, i believe 60fps, for literally years now.

On ATV via FUBO: The 4K content not only doesn't trigger HDR, but squashes the color space horribly.
On ATV via FOX app: Same

The same exact content on other client devices works. I know my HDR chain works (i.e. the various HDCP / HLG handshakes etc), so it's not something with my setup.

Of course, i realize it takes 2 to tango on these apps working, but when Apple came out with the 2021 4K ATV, they literally cited this was going to be fixed on the new hardware. All I've been asking - where is the progress?

Improved Video Experiences​

With A12 Bionic, Apple TV 4K now supports high frame rate HDR (High Dynamic Range) and Dolby Vision video, enabling fast-moving action at 60 frames per second (fps) to play more smoothly and appear more lifelike than ever before.1 Apple is working with leading video providers around the world, including FOX Sports, NBCUniversal, Paramount+, Red Bull TV, and Canal+, as they begin to stream in high frame rate HDR

 

[hancox]

In the UK BT were up first (sort of) and hung onto it on their platform and only recently they let it out the bag with an app (not sure if its 4k on the app) but BBC doing HLG though not the portfolio as the big spenders for sports, but HLG stopped Apple 4k Mk1 from being an option. Its a mixed bag, a TV firm has to fit a lot into distribution today.

Right - and this is the crux of my question. Have there been ANY apps that differentiate the 1st and 2nd gen ATV 4K boxes yet? It's been long enough, and the hardware improvements should be usable now.

 

[priitv8]

I do not think HLG requires any processing power. Definitely not, compared to Dolby Vision, for example.
HLG is just a gamma curve, static at that.

 

[400]

I do not think HLG requires any processing power. Definitely not, compared to Dolby Vision, for example.
HLG is just a gamma curve, static at that.

Thought it was a port issue? Mk1 2.0a needed to be 2.0b or something. Been a while since i tried to see why. But in the UK, I wonder how many ATV devices made it worthwhile to nail down. I use my panny player for the bbc uhd feeds.

 

[kiranmk2]

Thought it was a port issue? Mk1 2.0a needed to be 2.0b or something. Been a while since i tried to see why. But in the UK, I wonder how many ATV devices made it worthwhile to nail down. I use my panny player for the bbc uhd feeds.

Apparently the BBC uses MPEG-DASH for their 4K streaming which is not supported on tvOS/iOS

 

[hancox]

So - really no movement here. I think i may have overanalyzed the issue, too. Someone on another forum put this succinctly, which seems to be 100% correct:

4K HDR live TV isn't available on the Apple box.

Seems correct - any workarounds involve either not having HDR, or applying it falsely by hard-setting DV.

Apple clearly dropping ball here, given the original point on the new box keynote...

 

[verdi1987]

Right - and this is the crux of my question. Have there been ANY apps that differentiate the 1st and 2nd gen ATV 4K boxes yet? It's been long enough, and the hardware improvements should be usable now.

YouTube TV does. The 2021 Apple TV 4K has live 4K, whereas the original ATV4K gets up to 1440p, I believe.

I don’t know if YTTV actively determines the ATV4K generation or if the app simply negotiates the highest resolution.

 

[hancox]

YouTube TV does. The 2021 Apple TV 4K has live 4K, whereas the original ATV4K gets up to 1440p, I believe.

I don’t know if YTTV actively determines the ATV4K generation or if the app simply negotiates the highest resolution.

Yep - finally have our first! Let's see if these changes make it to YTTV live events.

 

[bozzykid]

Yep - finally have our first! Let's see if these changes make it to YTTV live events.

Youtube TV streamed the Olympics in 4K HDR on the 2021 Apple TV 4K over a year ago so this is nothing new for Youtube TV.

 

[hancox]

With dynamic range and frame rate matching?

 

[bozzykid]

With dynamic range and frame rate matching?

No, Youtube TV still doesn't support that but likely it is coming soon since the Youtube app got it recently. But 4K 60 HDR has been available on Youtube TV for quite a while.

 

[KUKitch]

Apologies as this is slightly off-topic... I had a question that I wanted to ask about Youtube TV as I'm a new subscriber. Does anybody know what would happen regarding the unlimited home streams through the 4K add-on if I have my home network set up with Dynamic DNS and a home VPN server so I can access my home network remotely? When connected to that VPN server - thereby routing all traffic back to my home network, would that be seen as a home stream at these external locations?