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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,306
24,037
Gotta be in it to win it
Assuming Japan is like many other countries, the laws regarding dominance in a market (which we have here with the iOS/Android duopoly) combined with anticompetitive behavior (which we have here with the restricting of sideloading, alternative app stores, alternative payment systems, etc.) have existed for a long time. Smartphones, app stores, Apple and Google weren't around 50 years ago but the regulations we’re talking about here fall under classic antitrust legislation. This is about applying age old laws to current markets, technologies, etc.
It’s all a matter of opinion, priority and agenda. Government can create any law they want, doesn’t mean they are good laws, right laws, serve the people or won’t get struck down by SCOTUS.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,813
6,715
The point is that the market and payment options for Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Switch, etc. games is/are much more open (or much less restrictive) than that for iOS apps. It's Apple's dominance in mobile OS combined with their anticompetitive behavior (significant restrictions) that are at issue.

I agree that antitrust laws and regulations should be across the board when situations are comparable but I just don't find the Apple, Sony, Nintendo, etc. situations comparable for reasons I've mentioned.
Not entirely accurate. I can get an Apple Gift Card at any store and use my balance to buy items on iOS. Just like I can go to Target and get a PS5 game.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,813
6,715
Naw, as a developer I know the reality that the Apple App Store does not and cannot detect determined developers from stealing your data in spite of Apple marketing.

If you don't trust an App developed by your bank, then you cannot trust your bank. Simple as that. The banks business is ruined if their App results in customers losing money.

You are also forgetting that companies like banks want a good customer experience. Side loading will never be as good as the Apple App Store for customer service. Also Apple is trendy. Developers like trendy.

Also don't you know that side loading has worked for decades on macOS.

Much fear, few facts.
There have been known issues on Windows where you trust a developer but some site/store repackaged the item and included more than expected.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,256
2,614
You absolutely could understand what barriers there are to new competitors entering the operating system market and dismantling them
You can't just "dismantle" the network effect of a platform having hundreds millions of users.
Unless you outlaw its use for a substantial part of them.
So because a few people want Apple hardware without the so-called ‘walled garden’, we should change it for everyone?
Counterquestion: Who wants a walled garden?
Answer: Very few people. Including nobody I know.

A reasonably secure and privacy-respecting OS and platform? Many.
That doesn't require Apple's totalitarian stranglehold on app distribution.

Discoverability of apps?
Again, no problem on other OS.
Apple could always just charge a hefty % of sales for access to API's and $99+ 15/30% per sales if you are willing to sell via the Apple store.

Would that work?
Thankfully, regulators and legislators have identified the issue with high, unilaterally set commission rates.
They have or will do the same for API access fees that merely shift these fees elsewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if the EU would slap Apple hard using their current legislation (anti-circumvention measures), if Apple were to try that.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,256
2,614
There have been known issues on Windows where you trust a developer but some site/store repackaged the item and included more than expected.
Download from the trusted developer instead - problem solved.
Anyone can install dubious SSL or signing certificates on iOS today.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,813
6,715
Download from the trusted developer instead - problem solved.
Anyone can install dubious SSL or signing certificates on iOS today.
I have. Recently. And got infected because they got hacked. Would an app review process have helped? Maybe. Maybe not. But it’s better than nothing.
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,909
2,523
United States
Not entirely accurate. I can get an Apple Gift Card at any store and use my balance to buy items on iOS. Just like I can go to Target and get a PS5 game.

Which is why I was speaking to the degree of restrictiveness and not that it was necessarily 100% one way or the other. By comparison, I feel Apple overall is far more restrictive with the iPhone/iOS at least in the U.S. and I assume the situation is similar in Japan (the focus of this article).
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,909
2,523
United States
There have been known issues on Windows where you trust a developer but some site/store repackaged the item and included more than expected.

There have been issues with plenty of apps on the App Store too. However, allowing more app access/app store competition on iOS may push Apple to be (even more) diligent and rigorous about the app and developer approval process and what's allowed and not allowed in their App Store.

A lot of these regulations can help push Apple to make iOS and the App Store better and safer which would be a GOOD thing.
 
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Jensend

macrumors 65816
Dec 19, 2008
1,389
1,607
It seems bizarre to me that you’d argue in favour of developer interests vs consumer interests.
I believe this change would be in (most) consumers’ best interest. I’ve already given you specific examples of apps that would have cheaper in-app purchases and subscriptions for consumers. It would allow a greater variety of apps. I don’t believe a significant number of Apps would leave the store because of the change. There could still be a Twitch app on the App Store that charges higher fees, and I could download a version directly from Amazon that charges their standard rate.
 

TracesOfArsenic

macrumors 6502a
Feb 22, 2018
955
1,393
Yeah, because a lot of them grew up with desktop computers. And they still need a Mac to make those apps. It’s not an overnight change.
This is the truly disgusting part; You're locked into buying a certain brand of hardware to publish to a different platform. The people that grew up making applications/games/etc with desktop computers did it on whatever they had/could afford/was best, not what a corporation decreed.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,361
7,138
Midwest USA
There have been known issues on Windows where you trust a developer but some site/store repackaged the item and included more than expected.
So you have to learn which stores to trust or which sites to download from.

This is no different than learning which which neighborhoods to party in.

Man we have raised a bunch of babies, seemingly incapable of learning. It is time to move out of your parents house and think on your own.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,344
1,412
Additionally, new competition could push Apple to make the App Store better. All of this would be a GOOD thing.
It wont make anything better for consumers when the prices stay the same, the apps are not vetted to the same extent, and their credit card and personal data ends up in more databases than absolutely necessary.
I believe this change would be in (most) consumers’ best interest. I’ve already given you specific examples of apps that would have cheaper in-app purchases and subscriptions for consumers. It would allow a greater variety of apps. I don’t believe a significant number of Apps would leave the store because of the change. There could still be a Twitch app on the App Store that charges higher fees, and I could download a version directly from Amazon that charges their standard rate.
You could also download a fake version of the twitch app from whoever manages to get it to the top of Googles search rankings. Or maybe the Amazon version collects far more data than the app store verison. Theres alot of ways it plays out.
So you have to learn which stores to trust or which sites to download from.

This is no different than learning which which neighborhoods to party in.

Man we have raised a bunch of babies, seemingly incapable of learning. It is time to move out of your parents house and think on your own.
It's been like that since the birth of the internet. Fact is many people haven't learned. The difference now is there are actual babies using these devices and downloading apps. If scams, clickbait and Nigerian princes did not work anymore, no one would put the effort in - a free-for-all on apps sounds like hacker heaven.

You and I may know this stuff either because we're either reasonably tech savvy or been exposed to it over time. Alot of folk who have mobile devices did/are not, and are basically dumb-and-dumber when it comes to trusting things on the internet (US elections proved that) and online service providers.

Don't be naive about how easily duped a vast number of iOS users are. And when their devices are compromised, it's everyone they know who also get compromised as well.
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,909
2,523
United States
It wont make anything better for consumers when the prices stay the same, the apps are not vetted to the same extent, and their credit card and personal data ends up in more databases than absolutely necessary.

There are apps that cost more in Apple's App Store than outside the App Store so allowing access to apps by sideloading/alternative sources could make them cheaper for consumers.

Whether or not app prices will change in Apple's App Store itself is unknown but more choices and more competition can also help improve the quality, type, and variety of services that may be provided e.g., allowing more app access and app store competition on iOS may push Apple to be (even more) diligent and rigorous about the app and developer approval process and what's allowed and not allowed in their App Store.

All of this would be good for consumers.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,361
7,138
Midwest USA
Don't be naive about how easily duped a vast number of iOS users are. And when their devices are compromised, it's everyone they know who also get compromised as well.
Yep, that is why I wear my winter coat. This is so you don't get cold in the winter time.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,344
1,412
Yep, that is why I wear my winter coat. This is so you don't get cold in the winter time.
Perhaps you have no correspondence with anyone else on your phone that you consider sensitive.

I know that people I have/do personally deal with - friends, family and distant acquaintances, to work mates have shared their bank details, birthdays, full names, job titles, phone numbers, emails, realtime location, home address, social profiles etc .. all via apps and email on my device.

Thats just other peoples personal information.
 

Jensend

macrumors 65816
Dec 19, 2008
1,389
1,607
Perhaps you have no correspondence with anyone else on your phone that you consider sensitive.

I know that people I have/do personally deal with - friends, family and distant acquaintances, to work mates have shared their bank details, birthdays, full names, job titles, phone numbers, emails, realtime location, home address, social profiles etc .. all via apps and email on my device.

Thats just other peoples personal information.
And all that data is automatically shared with their Macs, where they may have installed an app that isn't from the official app store! You should probably make sure that your friends only use an iPhone, and not a Mac or an Android phone. Otherwise, you should probably drop all communication with them.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,361
7,138
Midwest USA
Perhaps you have no correspondence with anyone else on your phone that you consider sensitive.

I know that people I have/do personally deal with - friends, family and distant acquaintances, to work mates have shared their bank details, birthdays, full names, job titles, phone numbers, emails, realtime location, home address, social profiles etc .. all via apps and email on my device.

Thats just other peoples personal information.
Yep, but it is their responsibility to know what "sharing" means. It is not your responsibility to be the world's nanny.
 
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deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,344
1,412
And all that data is automatically shared with their Macs, where they may have installed an app that isn't from the official app store! You should probably make sure that your friends only use an iPhone, and not a Mac or an Android phone. Otherwise, you should probably drop all communication with them.
No it's not. Most data is not shared unless you are paying for iCloud for everything or backing up to your Mac. Even then most data is useless and encrypted. Most "apps" that people would use on their mobile devices are in the form of a website on the computer.

I know a whole lotta people of people with i-devices (and android) and I am the only one of them who regularly backs them up. The phone is their primary device that they use for everything outside of desktop specific tasks.
Yep, but it is their responsibility to know what "sharing" means. It is not your responsibility to the the world's nanny.
I hope your friends and family are aware that you are so reckless regarding their online safety. Should they care to share any personal data with you in the future. Maybe start adding "at your own risk" to every conversation you have.

Even if you believe you are "good enough" to avoid the pitfalls of the average Phone user, you aren't infallible - the current situation isn't perfect, but its sure better than letting things simply play out to become survival of the fittest, which seems to be what you are suggesting.
 
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nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,361
7,138
Midwest USA
No it's not. Most data is not shared unless you are paying for iCloud for everything or backing up to your Mac. Even then most data is useless and encrypted. Most "apps" that people would use on their mobile devices are in the form of a website on the computer.

I know a whole lotta people of people with i-devices (and android) and I am the only one of them who regularly backs them up. The phone is their primary device that they use for everything outside of desktop specific tasks.

I hope your friends and family are aware that you are so reckless regarding their online safety. Should they care to share any personal data with you in the future. Maybe start adding "at your own risk" to every conversation you have.

Even if you believe you are "good enough" to avoid the pitfalls of the average Phone user, you aren't infallible - the current situation isn't perfect, but its sure better than letting things simply play out to become survival of the fittest, which seems to be what you are suggesting.
My point exactly about being the world's nanny. That is why I wear a winter jacket so that my friends and family don't have to wear theirs.
 

nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,361
7,138
Midwest USA
Ok, so you're an anarchist, got it.
Oh, I thought that would make you happy. After all I am protecting them. I also have a spell that I cast once every week to ward off the their iPhone evil doers. They seem pretty happy and have not had a single problem with scams the data theft. I am working so hard to protect them.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,344
1,412
Oh, I thought that would make you happy. After all I am protecting them. I also have a spell that I cast once every week to ward off the their iPhone evil doers. They seem pretty happy and have not had a single problem with scams the data theft. I am working so hard to protect them.
2023 - Don't need to be concerned
2024 - Should be concerned (but most won't)

I don't care how many spells you cast or how many winter coats you want to wear, winter hasn't started yet.
 

Mrkevinfinnerty

Suspended
Aug 13, 2022
1,713
5,101
It’s all a matter of opinion, priority and agenda. Government can create any law they want, doesn’t mean they are good laws, right laws, serve the people or won’t get struck down by SCOTUS.

But in the case of regulating Apple they are good laws, long overdue :)
 
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