Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[GrumpyCoder]

"Wow... I didn't see this one coming... not in a million years. I can't find words to describe my feelings for this. 32 years after I walked into a local computer store and bought the original Monkey Island game for PC, which got me totally hooked and 31 years after MI2, we're getting a direct sequel to MI2 which ignores all the other games in between. Excuse me please, gotta go, cry tears of joy (not kidding)."

So it’s okay for you to get emotional and go nuts for a small game with simple graphics after waiting 32 years but Mac gamers should stop dreaming and cheering when they get major titles like Resident Evil or their old games get updated to AS? I guess your principles don’t apply to yourself.

Let me comment on this specifically, as the rest is just there to start fights again and not worth commenting on, doesn't contribute to the topic.

Everyone can be emotional, the difference is between being emotional about a specific thing that actually exists and being emotional about something and come to the conclusion that it's going to change everything and convince others, giving them false hope as they might take it for granted.

MI was announced, a real thing and even got a Mac version because the old Mac-compatible engine had been modified to handle the higher requirements vs 8-Bit Pixel style.

However, MI isn't going to change anything. It's nice we have it now, but it's not going to change the gaming world and certainly won't convince other studios to release titles for the Mac or any other platform. And therein lies the difference. Others who see MI or other titles now or being announced on the Mac will start saying, because something was announced, this is going to change the gaming industry and because of it, more studios will follow and the Mac will get more games. You can be enthusiastic about a 20 year old game (ported or not) all you want, but because some studio is doing this for whatever reason doesn't mean this has any influence on other potential projects for the Mac. And that's what some constantly do, they see one thing happen, no matter how big or small it is and it's the holy grail that's going to change the Mac gaming world forever and everyone will follow. When in reality it means nothing.

So being emotional about a thing that exists is ok. Having that emotion and jumping to baseless conclusions other than emotion only is another.

Studios will bring games to the Mac when they think it's financially feasible and that is the only factor that counts. And that's not only the case for games, but every type of application.

So I don't dream about playing MI, I actually DO. It's real. But based on MI I'm not jumping to the conclusion that I will also play Diablo 4, CoH3 or PoE2 on the Mac as well as others do. And that's the difference you don't understand. Be enthusiastic about a game, I encourage you. But see it at what it is and don't jump to the conclusion it's a major game changer (no pun intended). In the end I'm not the one to tell you, but this is what this derailed discussion is all about.

Anyway, as I've said before... back to the regular schedule of AAA games.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

I am not sure if it means a thing, but I noticed that in macOS Ventura‘s preview web site Apple promotes the upcoming OS‘ gaming features.

Did I just miss this in previous releases or is this a (relative) novelty?

It's part of Metal 3 and other features that iOS brings to the ongoing merger of iOS and macOS.
Metal 3 as an evolution of previous versions brings as they say "Amazing visuals, accelerated performance, and quicker loading.".

"Play together with SharePlay" is used for gaming and was originally advertised as "Use SharePlay to watch and listen together in FaceTime on iPhone" which started on iOS 15.

"Redesigned Game Center dashboard" is an evolution of the original Game Center also coming from iOS.

While specifically advertised for macOS now, these won't be the last features coming from iOS. The further they're merging their different operating systems, the more features will come alone. Not only software, also hardware. We had a notch on the iPhone long before it made its way to the MBP.

We will also see better hardware controller/input device integration for iPhones/iPads at some point in the future. How much if at all Apple will actually advertise that, I don't know.

 

[Romain_H]

Yes that‘s the question. Plus if it means that Apple is going to take gaming on the Mac more seriously. We‘ll have to wait and see

 

[Irishman]

Let me comment on this specifically, as the rest is just there to start fights again and not worth commenting on, doesn't contribute to the topic.

Everyone can be emotional, the difference is between being emotional about a specific thing that actually exists and being emotional about something and come to the conclusion that it's going to change everything and convince others, giving them false hope as they might take it for granted.

MI was announced, a real thing and even got a Mac version because the old Mac-compatible engine had been modified to handle the higher requirements vs 8-Bit Pixel style.

However, MI isn't going to change anything. It's nice we have it now, but it's not going to change the gaming world and certainly won't convince other studios to release titles for the Mac or any other platform. And therein lies the difference. Others who see MI or other titles now or being announced on the Mac will start saying, because something was announced, this is going to change the gaming industry and because of it, more studios will follow and the Mac will get more games. You can be enthusiastic about a 20 year old game (ported or not) all you want, but because some studio is doing this for whatever reason doesn't mean this has any influence on other potential projects for the Mac. And that's what some constantly do, they see one thing happen, no matter how big or small it is and it's the holy grail that's going to change the Mac gaming world forever and everyone will follow. When in reality it means nothing.

So being emotional about a thing that exists is ok. Having that emotion and jumping to baseless conclusions other than emotion only is another.

Studios will bring games to the Mac when they think it's financially feasible and that is the only factor that counts. And that's not only the case for games, but every type of application.

So I don't dream about playing MI, I actually DO. It's real. But based on MI I'm not jumping to the conclusion that I will also play Diablo 4, CoH3 or PoE2 on the Mac as well as others do. And that's the difference you don't understand. Be enthusiastic about a game, I encourage you. But see it at what it is and don't jump to the conclusion it's a major game changer (no pun intended). In the end I'm not the one to tell you, but this is what this derailed discussion is all about.

Anyway, as I've said before... back to the regular schedule of AAA games.

I think I finally understand your point of view.

Only your experience and your fandom counts.

 

[Homy]

Let me comment on this specifically, as the rest is just there to start fights again and not worth commenting on, doesn't contribute to the topic and as we've seen with a fake account that was created for that purpose only and got banned/removed yesterday, it leads to nothing.

Everyone can be emotional, the difference is between being emotional about a specific thing that actually exists and being emotional about something and come to the conclusion that it's going to change everything and convince others, giving them false hope as they might take it for granted.

MI was announced, a real thing and even got a Mac version because the old Mac-compatible engine had been modified to handle the higher requirements vs 8-Bit Pixel style.

However, MI isn't going to change anything. It's nice we have it now, but it's not going to change the gaming world and certainly won't convince other studios to release titles for the Mac or any other platform. And therein lies the difference. Others who see MI or other titles now or being announced on the Mac will start saying, because something was announced, this is going to change the gaming industry and because of it, more studios will follow and the Mac will get more games. You can be enthusiastic about a 20 year old game (ported or not) all you want, but because some studio is doing this for whatever reason doesn't mean this has any influence on other potential projects for the Mac. And that's what some constantly do, they see one thing happen, no matter how big or small it is and it's the holy grail that's going to change the Mac gaming world forever and everyone will follow. When in reality it means nothing.

So being emotional about a thing that exists is ok. Having that emotion and jumping to baseless conclusions other than emotion only is another.

Studios will bring games to the Mac when they think it's financially feasible and that is the only factor that counts. And that's not only the case for games, but every type of application.

So I don't dream about playing MI, I actually DO. It's real. But based on MI I'm not jumping to the conclusion that I will also play Diablo 4, CoH3 or PoE2 on the Mac as well as others do. And that's the difference you don't understand. Be enthusiastic about a game, I encourage you. But see it at what it is and don't jump to the conclusion it's a major game changer (no pun intended). In the end I'm not the one to tell you, but this is what this derailed discussion is all about.

Anyway, as I've said before... back to the regular schedule of AAA games.

As usual you only answer whatever that suits your motives and reject the rest as already answered, provocative or not worth answering. By the way, did you answer your fellow programmer @leman ’s question two month ago or is he still waiting too?

Start fights? I thought we were adults. Is that how you take criticism? So you want to say and speculate whatever you want about people and subjects but don’t want to hear any objections because other opinions don’t contribute or lead to anything and only yours are the authentic and trustworthy ones? Well you misunderstood again because as an adult I don’t pick a fight. Like my role model Spock I try to use logic. That was an accurate and logical description of your narrative and behavior towards others and about the subject.

Again you seem to take yourself too seriously. Didn’t you say it’s just games? Why do you sound like a messiah trying to liberate Mac sheeps? Is that how you see your critics and Mac gamers? I mean you have already made bold assumptions about people’s education, knowledge, emotions and dreams. Who are these people jumping to conclusions, trying to convince others and giving them false hopes? Aren’t you patronizing again? You think people here are children in their dream bubbles not knowing their own best and waiting to be saved and led to the right path?

It’s certainly not me jumping to conclusions trying to convince others and giving false hopes, but still you keep pointing at me saying I don’t understand and I’m living in a dream, despite all my explanations. You’re welcome to give a few examples but I haven’t seen many if any people here fooling themselves into believing they will play Elden Ring soon because Capcom is bringing RE Village to Mac. Or for that matter Diablo 4, Company of Heroes 3 or Path of Exile 2. All people have talked about here is possibilities and hopes, not conclusions but again you’re the one making that twisted conclusion about other people to fit it in your narrative. That’s the difference you don’t want to understand.

Of course every new game like Monkey Island is a positive progress and change because it’s one more new game people can play but who said it would change the gaming world? You say some people but those few who engage in your gaming discussions have hardly had such illusions. Again people only talk about hopes and possibilities while you as a pessimist talk about no hopes or possibilities like you hold the future in your hands.

As for Monkey Island you’ve been dreaming and counting days as seen in your post because the game isn’t released yet but has it ever occurred to you that the reason you think people don’t understand may be that you make statements that don’t make much sense? As a realist I don’t have to dream either. Monkey Island is real on Mac so we can play it too. But I also see other real signs and embrace them instead of denying. We don’t dream about RE Village, No Man’s Sky or Grid Legends either. They are real too. We ”dreamt” about playing old Aspyr games on AS but now they will be real too. We "dreamt" about RE Winters' Expansion with Shadows of Rose and now that will be real too. So you see dreams can come true and there’s nothing wrong with having hopes and dreams. So why go around and burst and suffocate them in their cradle? Unless you think your everyone’s savior.

You keep saying it means nothing, it won’t change anything, Mac is not a gaming machine, but people said the same about AS. First they said it’s only mobile iPhone chips and won’t perform much. Then it outperformed even Craig Federighi’s and Apple’s own expectations. Then people said those iGPUs won’t be able to game. They surprised people again. Then they said Macs lack games and nobody has made games for AS after two years. Apple and devs surprised us again. So I think you should change your narrative from ”can’t, won’t” to ”we’ll see” because all you do is assumptions and predictions while acting like you have insider information and facts. Only Apple will know their future and we’ll see what that will be.

 

[diamond.g]

So aside from RE8 was anything else at TGS2022 listed as having a macOS version (or iOS I guess) coming?

 

[orionquest]

So aside from RE8 was anything else at TGS2022 listed as having a macOS version (or iOS I guess) coming?

Don't worry the emotional crickets will be silent on that topic as it doesn't fit their narrative of avoiding what actually is AAA gaming on the Mac.

Back to gaming, I occasionally bounce around some gaming news sites. Polygon for instance I think is somewhat regarded as a decent source of news. They published this list of best games so far:

The 50 best video games of 2022

A year of staggering breadth and blurry genres

www.polygon.com

Yeah I'm sure these lists can be skewed or influenced in some way but I believe they are relevant in some form. At least if anything it gives you a slice of what is currently going on in the gaming world, or what is released or popular.
It was good to see some of the games available on the Mac. But yeah most of them are typical flavours of indie, or strategy type games. Nothing wrong with that but no real mainstream titles.

I don't really have a point as to why I am sharing this, but I will say hopefully RE8 delievers some decent exposure to the Mac Plaform as a gaming system instead of just footnotes, and the game plays either as well or better then the counterparts on other platforms.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

So aside from RE8 was anything else at TGS2022 listed as having a macOS version (or iOS I guess) coming?

This is as good as it gets: https://www.macgamerhq.com/guides/best-mac-games/
iOS will have more of course, much more counting $1 or $2 mobile games or those with micro transactions.

 

[diamond.g]

I wasn't aware the System Shock remake was getting a macOS version. That is exciting to read as I loved the original.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

I wasn't aware the System Shock remake was getting a macOS version. That is exciting to read as I loved the original.

Yes, this has been announced a couple of years ago. It's a full cross platform title for almost every platform out there. Other than their demos, they had it playable at Gamescom last month but it still has a "when it's done" release date for the final version after it's been pushed back a couple of times. And that release date brings back bad memories from another game.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

So aside from RE8 was anything else at TGS2022 listed as having a macOS version (or iOS I guess) coming?

A fair few, but mostly indie strategy and RPG games.

Hooded Horse (Old Worlds publisher) is a relative newcomer, but they had a fair few titles shown off. Alliance of the Sacred Suns, Way of Wrath, Heart of the Machine.

Wandering Village and Settlement Survival were there, both are ASi native and have been received positively. Timberborn, from last year, celebrated 750k copies sold and received a major update.

 

[diamond.g]

macoOS lost share last month (per Steam Survey)? Wonder why.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

macoOS lost share last month (per Steam Survey)? Wonder why.

When it says Mac, can people say Mac even though they’re using Windows in BootCamp or does it really mean “the number of folks playing a macOS build on macOS?”

 

[diamond.g]

When it says Mac, can people say Mac even though they’re using Windows in BootCamp or does it really mean “the number of folks playing a macOS build on macOS?”

I believe the survey only asks when you have the steam client open (so not running a game). In that case if you are using the macOS client I think it would report that. For the folks that use crossover, I am not sure what it reports.

 

[Homy]

macoOS lost share last month (per Steam Survey)? Wonder why.

-0.14% is nothing really to wonder about since the data is not precise. I remember it went down once from 2.55% to around 2 and now up to 2.36%. It depends on how many are active by the time. The number of AS users on the other hand keeps increasing, up with 2.19% to a total of 48.56%.

 

[diamond.g]

-0.14% is nothing really to wonder about since the data is not precise. I remember it went down once from 2.55% to around 2 and now up to 2.36%. It depends on how many are active by the time. The number of AS users on the other hand keeps increasing, up with 2.19% to a total of 48.56%.

For “bigger” devs to start targeting macOS don’t we need the OS number to increase to like 5 or 10 percent?

Outside of Apple throwing money at them directly, of course.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

The data varies quite a bit. There was a low a few months ago of 1.74%, which was because of the VR sale.

It's usually around 2.3 to 4%, however, although historically it has been higher. I think the best way to look at it is this. At the least, assuming Steam has 100 mil users total, the Mac has at least 1.35 million users capable of running at least at a 1050 Ti level, and I don't think we've actually had that before.

 

[diamond.g]

The data varies quite a bit. There was a low a few months ago of 1.74%, which was because of the VR sale.

It's usually around 2.3 to 4%, however, although historically it has been higher. I think the best way to look at it is this. At the least, assuming Steam has 100 mil users total, the Mac has at least 1.35 million users capable of running at least at a 1050 Ti level, and I don't think we've actually had that before.

The numbers do look good, but is it enough for members like @Ethosik to make a macOS version of their Windows game?

 

[Irishman]

The numbers do look good, but is it enough for members like @Ethosik to make a macOS version of their Windows game?

Ah, yes! That data point of one (who may never be moved to port his game to the Mac). I guess the question is how much of an outlier developers like Ethosik turn out to be?

The Mac platform is in the process of transforming into something that Apple hopes will be better than they’ve ever been before. That’s going to hit for a lot of people, and it’s going to miss for some folks, too.

 

[diamond.g]

Ah, yes! That data point of one (who may never be moved to port his game to the Mac). I guess the question is how much of an outlier developers like Ethosik turn out to be?

The Mac platform is in the process of transforming into something that Apple hopes will be better than they’ve ever been before. That’s going to hit for a lot of people, and it’s going to miss for some folks, too.

That is a good question, for sure. They claimed their game runs fine on macOS, they just don't want to support the platform. I figure they are not the only one with that mindset/outlook. Really the question to them is when will they hop over? Seems like bigger studio's would/could have the same question.

 

[Irishman]

That is a good question, for sure. They claimed their game runs fine on macOS, they just don't want to support the platform. I figure they are not the only one with that mindset/outlook. Really the question to them is when will they hop over? Seems like bigger studio's would/could have the same question.

If that’s the case, honest to God, the first reason that springs to mind is that it’s all just a matter of withholding support out of spite! Maybe you can talk me down from my first blush opinion?

 

[Ethosik]

The numbers do look good, but is it enough for members like @Ethosik to make a macOS version of their Windows game?

No it’s not good ROI for me unless it gets around 30%. A macos port could happen, but it’s years down the line vs now and it’s purely driven by marketshare. I’m maximizing my ROI, Windows allows me to do this.

 

[diamond.g]

If that’s the case, honest to God, the first reason that springs to mind is that it’s all just a matter of withholding support out of spite! Maybe you can talk me down from my first blush opinion?

No it’s not good ROI for me unless it gets around 30%. A macos port could happen, but it’s years down the line vs now and it’s purely driven by marketshare. I’m maximizing my ROI, Windows allows me to do this.

@Irishman see there is the line (for this dev). Though what they say about doing a port years down the line does mirror what we see for some bigger games (NMS/RE8 come to mind).

 

[Nugat Trailers]

No it’s not good ROI for me unless it gets around 30%. A macos port could happen, but it’s years down the line vs now and it’s purely driven by marketshare. I’m maximizing my ROI, Windows allows me to do this.

And you know what? That's fair enough. While I'd like to see more games for Mac, I want them to be good titles, quality ports. But the dev or publisher's also got to make a decent return compared to the time they put in.

There's no point in putting out a gorgeous game that runs well on every MacBook from 2013 to now if it only sells like, 15 copies and makes the dev go bust.

 

[diamond.g]

This chart is comical...