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Apple CEO Tim Cook Publicly Comes Out as Gay in Letter Declaring Support for Equality
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The attitude towards homosexuality is misconstrued by the Catholic church primarily. They turned it into "don't accept them, don't do anything with them" mentality. In reality, the Bible states that all sins are the same in God's eyes and we are in no position to sit in the seat of judgement. People like yourself accept the big bang theory and others as a way to elude believing in God. That is quite unfortunate as Genesis 1 holds all the answers on creation.
How do you figure? People, even scientists, study the idea of other ways of creation and cannot explain it past a certain point in their "theory". God is real and He created the universe as described in Genesis 1. You can only go so far back before you realize that there is no way a big bang could have possibly made the universe.
What about all the other gods people worship around the world? Are they real too?
Is Muhammad another prophet like Jesus? And what about the Jews?
The lack of the ability to explain what happened before say the big bang does not equate to meaning god exists. No actual scientist would ever admit to that. Stating god is real is still based on a belief you hold. There are hypothesis that account for how the big bang came about but they are just that. We can only go back so far based on our current understanding of the universe. The current lack of evidence and technical hurdles make it an unanswerable question for now. In the future that might not be so unanswerable. What we know today would have seemed impossible 100, 200, 1000 years ago. Imagine what we'll know 100 years from now. Probably somethings we think are impossible to know today.
Using the bible to prove god is circular reasoning, meaning that's not how you prove god exists.
Jews believe in God but do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Lord and Savior. There is however, a form of Judaism called Messianic Jews which have accepted Christ as their savior.
In the simplest of terms, I believe that we both can agree that you cannot create something out of nothing. No matter how far back scientists take the history of our universe back there is absolutely no way that you can ever get it as far back as nothingness. Some say that some sort of gas explosion caused the universe to form, well where did the gas come from? Some say that meteor collisions formed the Earth, where did the meteors come from? Only God could have created this universe and no scientific theory can argue that you can get something out of nothing unless through God.
Or we could just say that the Universe, like God, was always there, and always will be. No need to bring in God to explain the Universe. In fact, that's a simpler explanation, because it removes a step.
Simply removing a step simply removes the truth. Man wants to know everything, it is in our nature. The universe had to come from somewhere and only God could do it. You can bicker, fight, make things up, elaborate, etc. on how the universe was made but the only logical answer that can fully explain it is that God made the universe. That being said, I think that this thread is being derailed from its original purpose. I am more than happy to talk to you else where about this other than this thread.
Homosexuality is a sin as stated in the Bible. This however was misconstrued into hatred (mainly being spearheaded by the infamous Catholic church). That is not the case by any means as we are all sinners equally in God's eyes. The only sinless man was Jesus, and that was possible through him being 100% God and 100% man. I recently did a devotion where I spoke of how as people we cannot sit in the seat of judgment. To reference this, I showed how a pedometer (those little devices that count steps) does not count a big step more than a small step. Sin is the same way, sin is sin. We cannot judge others for sinning differently than us because at the end of the day we are all equally guilty of sinning.
By that same logic, god has to have a creator, period. You can't sit there and say something can't come from nothing and expect people to just accept god did it as an answer. Part of the problem with the big bang theory is that we can only go back so far, meaning we really don't know that nothing ever even existed in the first place. No one was around to witness it, so we have to go off the evidence we currently have to build up a theory to go on. The thing about theories is that they can change if needed when new evidence is presented.
There are theories though that do provide a thought as to how the universe came about. My personal fav is that they are created from black holes. There are a number of theories that stem off of that. It could be that each black holes creation is a new universe. That each black hole is a door way to a completely different universe. There is another that suggests all black holes are connected, which feeding our own universe. Since the laws of time and space go out the window when it comes to a black hole, one idea is that our universe created itself. Meaning nothing never existed, our universe could simply be just one giant looping gif.
There are a number of theories out there, some are more strange then others. All of which has some basis in science and none of which blindly accept some supernatural force simply because they can't answer all the questions. Not having all the answers does not in anyway equate to the need of something greater such as a god.
Actually, I'd say it's more of an evangelical thing around here, which has far more pull in the states than the Catholic church.
mudslag said:
If you want to get philosophical for a second, you could say that nothing, as in literal nothing, can't exist, since it's existence defies itself with its own literal nonexistence. When people speak of "something from nothing" in terms of the universe, I think the better way to put it would be "something from what seemed like a bunch of empty space". See, empty isn't nothing, since for empty to exist, it has to have space and volume to be empty in. Space and volume is something, even if it's not very interesting in and of itself. Empty is a place where an action and reaction can happen, and a space for an action and reaction to occur is a prerequisite for the universe.
So you can say there's never been a "nothing". There's always been a "something".
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Iv said what Iv needed to say on this, my guess is you have very little knowledge on any scientific theory and anything you have looked into was to much for you to understand. Hence it's far easier to shut your mind off and just say god did it. But from a logical standpoint, god and logic don't mix. There is nothing logical about god other then god makes for a nice scapegoat when one is incapable of understanding the real world. There is nothing logical about a supernatural force that allows refuses to show itself to the world. There is nothing logical about a god that allows billions and billions to die and suffer in it's name. There is nothing logical about a supernatural being that supposedly created the universe built on laws that can be understood by man and then only shows supposed signs of itself in burnt toast and obscured salt stains on walls. There is nothing logical about any of that, so to say the only logical explanation for the universe is a god is pure ignorance.
What you need to understand is that sin, be it sin from the bible or where ever, is meaningless to those that don't believe in sin, the bible or god. What does matter is the company you keep that try to inject their beliefs into the real world that end up having an affect on others who don't share your view. It's nice that you're talking to others that share your faith and expressing that they all have their own sins to bare but unless you're arguing that their faith stops at their front door and shouldn't be forced into someone else's life, it's a meaningless effort to the rest of the world.
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That's a good point though I don't think it will go over well with Altemose
Honestly, you could spin it into a religious argument as easily as you could a purely scientific one. It's pretty straightforward logic with an open ended conclusion. For the universe to exist, something has had to exist infinitely. What is that something? Is the big bang a complex reaction formed from an even more complex action? Is it a more primitive base that evolved into the complex universe as we know it? Is it God? Turtles? Elephants under the turtles?
When you're talking about the infinite span of the universe that predates the Big Bang, it's all supposition and philosophy. It's a gap in our knowledge that can be filled with anything, up to and including God.
The key difference is that god can't be ruled into the equation til there is evidence for it. Something that has yet to show up.
Suppose we concede that the Universe did have a creator = God. It's still a big leap from there to accepting that the Bible is God's Word. Yes, Christians and Jews believe that. But other people don't. And for those people, leaping from "God exists" to "homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says so" is pure nonsense. One statement has nothing to do with the other.
Some answers are more plausible than others, but even so, it's one of those things that can be argued endlessly.
Yeah, you could say it's God of the Gaps...
BUT...
Hidden future depths
+1
for the equality in that statement, and for the emphasis on a religious statement being not originally hate-oriented.
Whilst I can not accept the statements of a bible as Altemose does, I do accept the difference of opininon. We can present equally strongly-held opinions that are contrary to those of Altemose, but we can not expect a person to lose all or part of something that is so strongly held.
On one hand, the word 'nonsense' may be provocative.
On the other, I have reacted nonsensically – in a religious way – at least once in my life. Most memorably, the night when I felt the oncoming death of a family member who was nowhere near. If I had paused to analyse that overwhelming feeling, I could have made no sense of it. Nonsense. Instead, my immediate instinct was prayer, at a time when I had no particular belief in any god. Nonsense upon nonsense. And in the morning my mother received the 'phone call telling of her sister's death.
I prayed to a god but still, I do not believe in a god in the way that Altemose might. And that might be nonsense to Altemose …
… but I suspect that there's enough mutual respect – on this one short page in a sprawling topic about life, love and the universe – for there to be no attempt to present that prayer, of mine, as evidence of a god for me.
For the benefit of readers who did not easily recognise the "I still exist!" soliloquy quoted below: it's from forty-something years ago …
… from The Incredible Shrinking Man.
Who would have expected something so deep at the end of something so apparently shallow?
If there was, is or will be an end, or repeated ends, to something as deep as a universe: what deep happy knowledge might be learnt by sentient beings as the ends draw near?
+1
for the equality in that statement, and for the emphasis on a religious statement being not originally hate-oriented.
Whilst I can not accept the statements of a bible as Altemose does, I do accept the difference of opininon. We can present equally strongly-held opinions that are contrary to those of Altemose, but we can not expect a person to lose all or part of something that is so strongly held.
On one hand, the word 'nonsense' may be provocative.
On the other, I have reacted nonsensically – in a religious way – at least once in my life. Most memorably, the night when I felt the oncoming death of a family member who was nowhere near. If I had paused to analyse that overwhelming feeling, I could have made no sense of it. Nonsense. Instead, my immediate instinct was prayer, at a time when I had no particular belief in any god. Nonsense upon nonsense. And in the morning my mother received the 'phone call telling of her sister's death.
I prayed to a god but still, I do not believe in a god in the way that Altemose might. And that might be nonsense to Altemose …
… but I suspect that there's enough mutual respect – on this one short page in a sprawling topic about life, love and the universe – for there to be no attempt to present that prayer, of mine, as evidence of a god for me.
For the benefit of readers who did not easily recognise the "I still exist!" soliloquy quoted below: it's from forty-something years ago …
… from The Incredible Shrinking Man.
Who would have expected something so deep at the end of something so apparently shallow?
If there was, is or will be an end, or repeated ends, to something as deep as a universe: what deep happy knowledge might be learnt by sentient beings as the ends draw near?
Right so that explains some Jews. So that's christians plus maybe 5-10 million others.
What about the other religions?
But what does this experience have to do with how people view homosexuality?
I get that it was a significant experience for you, but just not sure how it relates to the thread topic.
Or more generally, people have these experiences that move them to embrace religion. Still, it seems to me to be an illogical leap to go from "I feel God’s presence in my life" to "God says XYZ are sins."
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I do not understand how a looping donut can be anything with the creation of the universe. None of the scientific theories offer any truly end to end solution that is fathomable. You argue that they are still incomplete theories. I agree, scientists (and people) should study in the field of science. However, like I stated before, the more research that any scientist working on a theory does, will only in the end lead to the fact that God did indeed create the universe. It is almost like people are begging for a way to deny God as the Creator.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness." (Genesis 1:1-4)
You are right, in the beginning there was an empty earth (which is simply something that is empty). However, before God created the earth there was nothingness.
To point something out here, I am not blind and immediately discount scientific theories. I do read and study them but ultimately the answer end the same way.
On the contrary, God and logic do mix, and they mix well. You argue that God "let's billions and billions die and suffer". God puts each one of us into this world in His image and likeness on His plan. God calls some out of this world in many different ways and at different times and ages.
I am sixteen years old and could die tomorrow if that is His will. The difference is that I have accepted Christ and that dying is the last measure of my faith no matter how it happens. God is no faceless being who simply made the earth, people, etc., he works in us each and every day. Since you are extremely scientifically minded, I will toss you an example. People everyday sit on their deathbeds being told by doctors that they have incurable illnesses or forms of cancer that are fatal. They leave and come back only to find no trace of the problem whatsoever. Doctors can run the tests time and time again with the same result. Science says they would be dead, God says they will live. There are countless examples of how God works in our lives.
Even if you do not believe in God at all, many will agree that Biblical principles apply today. If you look at the 10 Commandments, all of them show the right way to live:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy.
5. Honor your mother and your father.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
Nobody is sinless aside from Jesus. We all are given the ability to accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior and accept his forgiveness and love into our hearts. A gay person lusting after another gay person is no different than a straight person lusting after the opposite gender. Sin is sin.
Unfortunately, I know people will not accept God's word. Just look around today and decide, could anyone but God really create this earth? Even if you do not believe in God, we have two opposite genders for a reason. I do not judge homosexual people because it is not my place to judge, only God's. I do not support their sins the same way they do not support yours and they don't support mine.
You may pray to a different false god. That being said, I cannot judge in the same respect that I cannot judge a thief, a homosexual, a rapist, a liar, etc. It is not our place to judge.
If you are referencing Muslims then they have a bit of a different heritage. Islam began from the imagination of Mohammed, an Arab from Mecca. His followers coupled various elements of Judaism and Christianity and distorted and corrupted them. This elements then were set up to be a religion that pointed to himself as the ultimate authority and not the one true God. Muslims believe they are given either a burning inferno or sensual paradise based on how well they keep the rules of the Koran. They pray constantly to Allah with Mohammed being his prophet supposedly.
Muslims constantly chase the ball as they never are sure they have pleased Allah. In reality, Islam is nothing more than a humanistic religion that praises a human who glorified himself by taking and twisting elements of Christianity and Judaism.
Would that god be false because it differs from the god that you choose?
That phrase – "a thief, a homosexual, a rapist, a liar, etc." – maybe not intended to be judgemental ,but I find it more than a little peculiar. How does the following sound?
"a thief, a Bible reader, a rapist, a liar, etc."
It was not intended to be judgmental by any means. You do not state what god you were praying to that night so it is impossible to figure out if it was a particular god. There is one true God, the Father.
while i admire your strong faith (certainly better than atheism, imho), putting gays in the same category with rapists and thiefs is kind of a low blow and obviously unjustified.
No. I did not put gays into the same category. Sinning is sinning. It doesn't matter if it robbery, rape, homosexuality, cursing, lying, etc. All sins are equally bad in God's eyes. I apologize if that was misconstrued by my post. I was trying to elucidate the fact that sin is equal no matter what it is.
Wow. You've been posting here for awhile...
I agree with what you're saying, and it kinda follows along with what I believe in my agnostic leaning, I don't know what's going on, but here we are sorta way.
Basically, the universe is a construct of wonders filled with more wonders within, and we're creatures, wonders in and of ourselves, that have either evolved, or been given the capacity (or both) to marvel at it. Certainly that must mean something, even if the meaning we derive from it is recursive.
Wall of text incoming...
The doughnut gif represents two simple ideas, one being the idea of the universe repeating it's creation and destruction over and over. Some believe the big bang is a result of the big crunch, which in turn expends out and then retracts again over and over forever. The other idea is that a black hole is what is feeding the universe. In some theories, what goes in, has to come back out at not only some point in time but somewhere in either this universe or another. It's a pretty simple concept in principal, though the actual math and science behind it is far from simple. Whether or not it's true is a debate that will be had for a very long time. We may never know the answer as some of the technology and science may just be out of human reach. After all current technology hardly lets us reach other planets within our own solar system, to reach a black hole light years away is hundreds of years away if it will ever possible at all.
Your problem is you're looking for a end all say all theory that can not only explain everything this instant but be backed up with hard evidence that is simply put, out of our reach at our current moment in time. Because of this you simply dismiss any notion that we are capable of understanding the universe to a whole. Which makes it easier for you to jump to a conclusion that humans can't provide the answers you seek therefore god did it. If you had any basic understanding of science, you'ed understand why it's not currently possible. That simply put is not how science works. Science does not lead to a conclusion that god did it just because we get stuck on a problem. It's pure ignorance to think anything like that.
Think about it like this. A hundred years ago before we even started flying, when we looked up at the moon, theories about the moon could only be made from basic observations. We didn't have the technology to study it any other way. Then we started flying, built rockets that could take us to space, then that could take us to the moon. Once we could reach the moon via man missions and satellites, our window into the moon opened us up 1000 fold. We went from looking up at the moon and guessing about it to standing on it and bringing back samples that could be studied. That was 50 yrs ago and even to this day we are still learning about the moon and finding out we still have a lot to learn about it. We will still be learning new stuff about the moon a hundred years from now. In our exploration of the universe so far, we have learned that the universe is built on a set of natural laws. Everything we have come across can be broken down through science. Science has never come across something, be it on our own planet or anywhere in the universe that even remotely suggests that something so bizarre that man has said "gee we can't understand this and the ONLY thing that makes sense is a supernatural power has to be behind it". That's never happened and there is zero reason to think it ever will.
Man was full of ignorance about what we thought we knew about the moon as well as the other planets we have begun to explore over the last 50 yrs. Ignorance isn't a bad thing, it simply means we just didn't have the knowledge. You have that same ignorance. It's ignorance to think that we should even remotely be able to have all answers now regarding theories of the creation of the universe. It's also ignorance to think that because of this we should look to god for the answers. That's not how science works. There is zero reason to say science will only lead to god in the end. That's the ignorance in your thinking, simply because you don't have the knowledge to understand the science. The only way to get over that ignorance is to not limit yourself to just thinking god can only do it, other wise you'll remain ignorant.
Biblical principle are not really original, many of those commandments predate the 10 commandments that Moses brought down from mount sinai. Murder, adultery, theft were laws and views held long before then. Some of the other ones hardly apply today, even for some of the more devout religious. Sin is sin for only those that believe in it. Lust for example is natural, practically everyone has it at some point if not daily. It's one of the reasons it's labeled a sin because everyone has it and the idea that we should feel bad for feeling it is just silly. Then again I find most religious views silly, including the idea of a god. Seeing that you're only 16, I can only hope that you continue to ask questions, just don't be so eager to accept "god did it" just because there isn't a proper answer yet.
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