Apple defends 8gb in laptop

[dmccloud]

Yeah, he’s got a bad rep in these parts— but if you actually take the time to read what I wrote and see the throttling for yourself, then you’ll understand. Turns out that fans cool things down

This is not unique to the Mac platform by any means. However, M-series chips generate far less heat under load than their Intel/AMD counterparts, so throttling does not happen as often, nor does it limit performance to the same degree as x86 systems.

 

[dmccloud]

since Safari has never worked & Firefox does, yeah it's normal...

that's the problem!

There's something else besides 8GB RAM causing the issues you're describing. Whether it's OS-related or something specific to the other browsers (such as extensions in use) is something you would need to determine.

 

[dmccloud]

lol, yeah no thanks. I bought into that to see for myself on a MBA M2. And I would constantly hit the memory pressure and swap file just doing mild multi-tasking. Listening to music and surfing the net with a few browsers profiles open and multiple tabs, iMessage, OUtlook Client. This was all enough to overwhelm the 8GB. When I have my 16GB macs they regularly go up to 11GB-15GB. So I should have known better. But I bought into the rhetoric and tried it out with just 8GB. So if you only use one browser and one other task. Then sure. Maybe that's fine.

Unless the memory pressure was yellow or red, the total amount of RAM being used is meaningless simply due to how Mac OS works. The default behavior is to use as much RAM as possible, which is why you see that 11-15GB used on a 16GB model. On a machine with 24GB or even 36GB RAM, you would see a similar thing occurring.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

Unless the memory pressure was yellow or red, the total amount of RAM being used is meaningless simply due to how Mac OS works. The default behavior is to use as much RAM as possible, which is why you see that 11-15GB used on a 16GB model. On a machine with 24GB or even 36GB RAM, you would see a similar thing occurring.

Yes, It would hit yellow everytime. And during those moments I do notice the system will stutter when I was doing something. Mostly notably when listening to music.

 

[transpo1]

This is not unique to the Mac platform by any means. However, M-series chips generate far less heat under load than their Intel/AMD counterparts, so throttling does not happen as often, nor does it limit performance to the same degree as x86 systems.

True— I believe throttling doesn’t happen as often because of the M-series’ superior power consumption performance but it still seems to happen under heavy workloads, especially on fan-less models.

 

[Zest28]

Just a thought as far as prices go but I wonder how much of the price for upgrades comes from the fact that the RAM in Apple systems is built in on the Apple Silicon package rather than the motherboard or on modules like all of the other systems people compare it to.

I’m not an electrical engineer I’d imagine that adds a fair amount of complexity and QA that adds to the cost. Also the limited space must increase the density of the RAM chips and increase the cost as well.

You really think $200 for an extra 256GB storage, to go from 256GB storage to 512GB storage is a fair amount because of "complexity"? And this is a slow ass SSD that does less than 3000MB/s.

For $100, you can buy a high performance 1TB SSD that does 7000MB/s.

Apple is just playing everybody for fools.

Btw, even before ARM Mac, Apple had these crazy upgrade prices which made no sense.

I remember the good old days when I bought the base 15" 2010 MBP and upgraded it myself to the maximum specs possible with 3rd party components for around $2000 in total. The same machine ordered from Apple was $3500+.

And these 3rd party component had superior warranty, as the Samsung SSD had 5-years of warranty and the memory had lifetime warranty. In the meantime, Apple only gave 1-year warranty on that $3500+ spec. A total rip off from Apple.

 

[foggygray]

You really think $200 for an extra 256GB storage, to go from 256GB storage to 512GB storage is a fair amount because of "complexity"? And this is a slow ass SSD that does less than 3000MB/s.

For $100, you can buy a high performance 1TB SSD that does 7000MB/s.

Apple is just playing everybody for fools.

Btw, even before ARM Mac, Apple had these crazy upgrade prices which made no sense.

I remember the good old days when I bought the base 15" 2010 MBP and upgraded it myself to the maximum specs possible with 3rd party components for around $2000 in total. The same machine ordered from Apple was $3500+.

And these 3rd party component had superior warranty, as the Samsung SSD had 5-years of warranty and the memory had lifetime warranty. In the meantime, Apple only gave 1-year warranty on that $3500+ spec. A total rip off from Apple.

I didn’t say anything about storage. Storage has always been about profits for pushing people towards the cloud.

Also lol at 3000MB/s being slow.

 

[AlmightyKang]

Random thread I started about 8GB it here:

I spent 2 months on a base M2 Mac Mini

The project is over. About 2 months ago now, a friend of mine sold me a base 8/256 Mac Mini M2 for a stupid low price which I couldn't turn down. It was his first ARM Mac after his old 16" Intel lap burner gave up. He bought an M3 iMac to replace the mini with so wanted to dump it off. I...

forums.macrumors.com

tl;dr: I am still using the base 8GB/256GB unit...

 

[signuphere]

I have had a base m2 mini for 8 months, oddly it beach balls weekly, and no heavy 3rd party apps. Why?

I do have my photo library properly offloaded to a Apple Store exclusive (woot j/k) SSD and it performs just fine…

safari
discord
apple music streaming

it all works just fine for me when those apps are running.

it should not Beachball when I have no other apps open, and I check the weather, or open Apple news… on a 500/500 fiber line 2 a copper-hardwired Ethernet.

…This is what infuriates me.

Yeah...I have a M3 iMac with 24 GB of RAM and have, typically, at most 5-7 tabs open, Chrome and Preview open and get the beach balls too on occasion. I don't understand that and can't imagine doing "real" work on it. To be clear, I don't regret for one second the purchase, but it's slightly disappointing performance for a premium product.

 

[iHorseHead]

lol, yeah no thanks. I bought into that to see for myself on a MBA M2. And I would constantly hit the memory pressure and swap file just doing mild multi-tasking. Listening to music and surfing the net with a few browsers profiles open and multiple tabs, iMessage, OUtlook Client. This was all enough to overwhelm the 8GB. When I have my 16GB macs they regularly go up to 11GB-15GB. So I should have known better. But I bought into the rhetoric and tried it out with just 8GB. So if you only use one browser and one other task. Then sure. Maybe that's fine.

You dont know how RAM works, do you?

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

You dont know how RAM works, do you?

Explain it then.

 

[za9ra22]

Explain it then.

You might find this: https://www.howtogeek.com/865066/its-okay-to-buy-a-mac-with-only-8-gb-ram/ interesting. Ignore the 'why 8GB is enough' bit, because that really is dependent on what you're doing, and 8GB isn't enough for a lot of tasks, but this article explains some of the background.

 

[theluggage]

It's been said many times, it's not as if Apple is the only one selling laptops with 8/256 GB. They sell MBA M2/M3 for $999-1099. Here are some Dell laptops with 8/256 GB for $1040-1599.

You can have endless fun cherry-picking from the hundreds of PCs on sale to find examples that prove or disprove this - and argue endlessly about which machines are "comparable" to Macs.

The one thing you can say about Apple is that their product range and pricing structure is logical and predictable and largely free of promotional gimmicks - c.f. HPDellNovo who's websites are dumpster fires of overlapping product lines, and inter-twined configuration options, and their consumer pricing riddled with semi-permanent "discounts", e-vouchers and rebates. Also, products aimed at the corporate market tend to be marked up so they can offer a whopping discount when you have your people talk to their people.

E.g. here's a Dell XPS laptop with 16/512GB for $799: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/del...s-13-9315-laptop/xn9315fqrxs?ref=variantstack

Or, currently, the Lenovo ThinkPad comes with 16/512 GB starting from $1270.

Also, I think you have to concentrate on laptops with non-upgradeable LPDDR memory - some of your examples had DDR4/DDR5 which can be user-upgraded for a lot less than the manufacturer's BTO upgrades. Until recently, Apple was selling $3000 i9-powered iMacs with a laughable 8GB RAM, but that wasn't such a big deal when you could easily upgrade them at a quarter of Apple's BTO price. Plus of course, user-upgradeable M.2 SSDs are pretty common in PC laptops.

It also seems to vary between countries: the M3 MacBook Air in the UK still costs £1099 vs. $1099 while the "new" Dell XPS 13 with 16/512 costs £1198 rather than $1399 - and we often don't see the sort of discounts on base-model Macs that some of the big US retailers offer. I think at least some of the complaints about RAM size/price come from those of us outside the US.

Some of the new Dell/Lenovo machines with Core Ultra processors seem a bit closer to Apple pricing - but those are fairly new and will probably see discounts once HPDellNovo have shifted the old stock. Meanwhile, we can pretty much guarantee that Apple prices will stay the same until the M4s come out - and that the next $999 offering will be the current M3 8/256 Air.

Thing is, if you shop around for a good PC deal you can easily find 16/512GB in the MacBook Air price range and 32GB/1TB in the MacBook Pro price range. Even if the base models are comparable, if you do need more than the standard RAM/SSD, Mac prices soon shoot way ahead (...if you're using an online configurator you need to keep careful track of what processor and other upgrades are 'bundled' with the upgrade).

 

[theluggage]

8gb is perfect for grandmas and grandpas and casuals. perfect.

An M1 is more than adequate for grandmas and grandpas and casuals, too. There are people on this site still rocking 10+ year-old Macs, because they get the job done. Pretty much anything with a SSD is "good enough" for basic "personal productivity" (and no feasible amount of RAM is good enough for people who just go on using browser tabs as bookmarks until the machine grinds to a halt). Your gran probably doesn't care about having a retina screen, spatial audio or Thunderbolt 4.

It seems that everybody accepts that every new generation of Mac (even the base MacBook Air for your gran) will have more/better/faster, processor and GPU cores, faster I/O, higher definition/HDR/HFR screens... in short, to get a significant spec bump in every important respect every 12-18 months... Except, somehow, having the same RAM capacity as 7 years ago is "good enough"...

The 2017 MacBook Air ($999) had a dual-core 1.8GHz processor with Geekbench 5 scores of 666/1368 , a 1440x900 display, Intel HD 6000 integrated graphics, two 5 Gbps USB 3 ports and 8GB RAM. (source: everymac.com)

The 2024 M3 MacBook Air ($1099) has an 8 core 4GHz CPU, 8 core GPU, Geekbench 5 scores of 2310/10695. a 2560x1664 display, two 40Gbps USB4/TB4 ports... and 8GB of RAM. (Can't put figures on the GPU performance, but I don't think there's any dispute that it is far, far more powerful than Intel HD 6000!)

Spot the odd statistic out.

The processor can potentially shift maybe 8x as much data per second as the 2017 - and those cores need to be fed with data. The I/O can shift 8x as much data. The "retina" screen is going to use 220ppi images rather than 110ppi images which means image files, screen buffers etc. (as needed for all those animated images and videos on the web pages you view) will be 4x the size.

Nobody, in 2017, was asking "Golly gosh, why does the MBA come with 4-8x as much RAM as my grandma needs?" - it was accepted as sensible at the time. The question now, when most of the other specs of the machine enable it to chomp through 4-8x as much data, why hasn't the standard RAM expanded to match?

Apple doesn't make an affordable entry-level computer for "grandmas and grandpas and casuals" - they have the iPhone and iPad for that - the MacBook Air is a powerful ultrabook with a processor that is more than capable of serious work, and comes at a corresponding price premium c.f. basic PC laptops and Chromebooks. Plus, the complaint about low base RAM applies equally to the M3 MacBook Pro which definitely isn't aimed at the most basic users.

 

[LavaLevel]

Apple doesn't make an affordable entry-level computer for "grandmas and grandpas and casuals"

$599 M2 Mac mini not casual enough??

or a

$699.00 M1 MacBook Air 8/256 *AT WALMART* (of all places) Sounds pretty casual to me.

The complaint about low base RAM is by people that are smart enough to by 16gb; they just want to play online Apple executive. Why else would they be complaining? Do you feel like you've been fooled into buying less Ram?

You could always go buy a 'right to repair because it breaks all the time' PC. 🤷‍♂️

 

[kirkster501]

Depends what you are using it for. I have a 8G Macbook and it works great!

 

[Torty]

snip

Nobody, in 2017, was asking "Golly gosh, why does the MBA come with 4-8x as much RAM as my grandma needs?" - it was accepted as sensible at the time. The question now, when most of the other specs of the machine enable it to chomp through 4-8x as much data, why hasn't the standard RAM expanded to match?

snip

Till I got my M3 MBA I used a 2012 8GB MBP. It's still usable but SW support is getting less and less. Never had RAM problems but the CPU is struggeling.
Maybe most apps simply didn't became too fat over time.

 

[theluggage]

$599 M2 Mac mini not casual enough??

vs a Raspberry Pi for $150 (including the bits and pieces) Raspberry Pi?
Or - if that's a bit too extreme - I'm looking at the webpage for a major UK electronics chain and there's a bunch of mini PCs between £250 and £500 (£1 ~= $1, ball park, by the time you've knocked off the 20% tax included in the UK price and then multiplied by the $1.24 exchange rate & made some allowance for the better statutory warranty. Apple generally just cross off the $ and put a £).

$699.00 M1 MacBook Air 8/256 *AT WALMART* (of all places) Sounds pretty casual to me.

Compared to a $260 Dell Chromebook?
Or there's iPads starting at $329

Do those have the same computing/graphics power as a M2 or M3 Mac? Of course not - but I guarantee that they are more than adequate for many peoples' purposes.

So make up your mind - is your standard "The best and latest specs" (in which case, why hasn't Mac's RAM capacity kept pace with every other spec) or is it "works for me" (but then so would a 2019 spec Mac - in which case, yeah, go go Walmart).

Do you feel like you've been fooled into buying less Ram?

Have you not noticed all the posts on this site from people asking whether the base 8GB/256GB spec would be enough, because getting 16GB/512GB would add 60% to the price of that Mac Mini, and probably rule out that juicy Walmart offer? So, yes, people are either compromising on RAM because of the price or paying $400 (i.e. an iPad's worth) just in case they need more. That shouldn't even be a debate in 2024 - RAM and SSD, even the high performance types that Apple use, simply don't cost that much these days. If I were building a PC (something I've done in the past) putting less that 32GB of RAM in it would be spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar.

FWIW I delayed buying an Apple Silicon Mac for a couple of years because of the whole "60% extra for a sensible RAM/SSD config" with the 2019-2021 models and eventually bought a Mac Studio, which came with a more sensible - in proportion to its other specs - 32GB/512GB standard. The fact that the SSD was at least replaceable (even if Apple block upgrades) helped - and while $200 for an extra 512GB was steep it was better than the $200 for an extra 256GB that was standard on the Mini/Air.

You could always go buy a 'right to repair because it breaks all the time' PC. 🤷‍♂️

I'm Mac-based at the moment, but I've used PCs extensively in the past and while, yeah, I'd say that Mac was more stable and reliable, it's not night and day. Macs aren't perfect and PCs don't 'break all the time'. 80% of the computing world are happy with them.

I'm hoping that the Studio will be good for a few years yet, but when it comes to upgrade, Apple better have pulled their socks up on RAM/SSD because, yes, a PC would definitely be on the shortlist.

 

[Chuckeee]

Plus, the complaint about low base RAM applies equally to the M3 MacBook Pro which definitely isn't aimed at the most basic users.

Once again I believe some people are getting too, caught up on term Pro. Across the marketplace, and with Apple in particular, it is just a marketing term. It doesn’t mean professional anymore, it means profit. It means bragging rights at Starbucks and Panera bread. It’s something for a middle manager, sitting at a corner cubicle, to make himself feel slightly more superior to the minions that surrounded him. It’s a way to spend more of daddy‘s money to prove that he loves you better. If you’re really a professional and you’re looking for a professional machine, you know what you need and you’ll just pay for it.

Apple knows this and takes advantage of this with the sky high memory upgrade cost and by making memory not an item that can be serviced by the casual user. It is a greedy thing that Apple is doing, but that’s the way it is.

So we can discuss if 8 GB Is enough for 2024 or is it adequate for future proofing. Just don’t fall into the trap of thinking just because it says Pro it needs to be different.

 

[LavaLevel]

vs a Raspberry Pi for $150 (including the bits and pieces) Raspberry Pi?

That's just silly.

Another case Again, anyone who buys a Raspberry PI knows what they're doing. You have to search online specifically for Rasperry PIs. They aren't in Walmarts, they are chip components.

Listen, the standard for a casual machine is a household name, for low cost and high availability.(A major chain like Walmart or BestBuy, not a parts enthusiast catalogue) So yes, Chromebook would count. So would an M1 MacBook Air at Walmart.

As far as a Mac Studio I'm not even sure what you do with your MAC but would imagine you'll be much happier going back to PC.

 

[theluggage]

Just don’t fall into the trap of thinking just because it says Pro it needs to be different.

I'd expect "pro" to mean "all-round better than the non-pro one". I think that's a reasonably modest expectation. Plus, rather more significant than those three little letters is the $600 extra it costs c.f. the "entry level" MacBook Air.

Listen, the standard for a casual machine is a household name, for low cost and high availability.(A major chain like Walmart or BestBuy, not a parts enthusiast catalogue)

CanaKit Raspberry Pi 4 Extreme Kit 8GB RAM Black PI4-8GB-EXT128EWF-C4-WHT-RT - Best Buy

Shop CanaKit Raspberry Pi 4 Extreme Kit 8GB RAM Black at Best Buy. Find low everyday prices and buy online for delivery or in-store pick-up. Price Match Guarantee.

www.bestbuy.com

Or if that's too component-y for you, here's the fully assembled plug-and-play version with keyboard, mouse, power supply and HDMI cable:

Raspberry Pi 400 Desktop Computer Kit (UK layout)

The new Raspberry Pi 400 kit features everything in one fully-enclosed compact unit, removing the need for multiple components, whilst delivering a clock speed of 1.8GHz, higher than other Raspberry Pi boards on the market. All that is required to start using the Raspberry Pi 400 as an out-of-the...

www.amazon.co.uk

(That nice Mr Bezos will be so disappointed that you don't think Amazon is a household name.)

If you've never used one then be assured that it boots up into a nice, click-and-drool GUI complete with web browser, wordprocessor, spreadsheet etc... and if that's still too left-field for you, looks like Best Buy also has various more conventional MiniPCs for less than the cost of a Mac Mini too. Mind you, the Mac Mini is going to scare off some "casuals" by being a bring-your-own-display-keyboard-and-mouse system when the mass market these days is for laptops.

Equivalent to a Mac? Absolutely not. "Good enough" for many users - yes. My point is that if you apply the "good enough for many" rule to RAM then you should be consistent and apply it to other specs. If you make "good enough" your criteria there are a lot of much cheaper options.

Chromebook would count. So would an M1 MacBook Air at Walmart.

...that M1 MacBook Air is still significantly more expensive than most Chromebooks (although "premium" Chromebooks are available) - and it is discontinued so that clearance offer is likely to be fleeting.

 

[LavaLevel]

You're trying to tell me a KIT is casual entry level computer simply because it's cheaper. It's also not featured on Amazon, it's just buried somewhere in Amazon.

Again, it's not the most cheapest price, it's low price & that's only part of it. Low Price+Brand_Name+Availability. Your statement of :

"Apple doesn't make an affordable entry-level computer for "grandmas and grandpas and casuals"

Is still just plain wrong imo. We're going in circles so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

 

[theluggage]

You're trying to tell me a KIT is casual entry level computer simply because it's cheaper. It's also not featured on Amazon, it's just buried somewhere in Amazon.

The Pi 400 bundle I linked to is only called a ”kit” because it comes with the power brick, memory card, HDMI cable, mouse etc. which aren’t included in the “non-kit“ version. The 400 was specifically designed as a fully assembled affordable entry-level computer rather than the original bare-board. Even the original bare-board version is abailable in “starter kits” which basically clip together in 5 minutes. You might as well say that the Mac Mini is unsuitable for “casual” because you have to plug in a display and find a suitable keyboard and mouse.

As for “buried on Amazon“ - you find it the same way you find anything on Amazon. Surprisingly, people today often shop for things by googling what they want. Raspberry Pi is a pretty well-known brand that has been featured in mainstream news articles etc.

Anyway - this is a distraction, I’m not suggesting people throw out their Macs and get Pis - just pointing out that there are plenty of sub-$500 options that will happily serve basic computing needs, but Apple simply doesn’t address that market.

 

[Chuckeee]

Anyway - this is a distraction, I’m not suggesting people throw out their Macs and get Pis - just pointing out that there are plenty of sub-$500 options that will happily serve basic computing needs, but Apple simply doesn’t address that market

Small nit, I think it’s the sub-$200 options/market. $500 is still a lot for many. And you correct this not now or has this ever been a market that Apple has shown any interest in.

 

[theluggage]

Small nit, I think it’s the sub-$200 options/market. $500 is still a lot for many.

The point was that the cheapest new Macs are the $600 Mini or the $999 Air, so anything at $500 or below falls into the "significantly cheaper than a Mac" bracket - and there are plenty of PC and ChromeOS options, desktop or laptop. in that range. The sub-$200 options like the Raspberry Pi are the extreme end and represent quite a lot of compromises - but they are still fully functional computers that can do web, email, office etc.

Essentially, the base Mac Mini and M2 Air might be "entry-level" Macs but they are certainly not entry-level personal computers.