Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

KdParker

macrumors 601
Oct 1, 2010
4,793
998
Everywhere
Nonsense. Most people think diversity is just affirmative action wrapped with doublespeak.



If that were true, asians wouldn't be suing universities because they were refused entrance in spite of having higher scores than the more "diverse" students who were admitted.

If competence is the primary requirement (and legally and morally, that's what should be the main consideration), there shouldn't be a need for Offices of Diversity and Multiculturalism. And yet we have them.
Nonsense. Most people think diversity is just affirmative action wrapped with doublespeak.



If that were true, asians wouldn't be suing universities because they were refused entrance in spite of having higher scores than the more "diverse" students who were admitted.

If competence is the primary requirement (and legally and morally, that's what should be the main consideration), there shouldn't be a need for Offices of Diversity and Multiculturalism. And yet we have them.
Did you actually read what I wrote?

Only certain types of people think diversity is code for affirmative action. Btw - who do you think has benefited the most from affirmative action?

If that were true, asians wouldn't be suing universities because they were refused entrance in spite of having higher scores than the more "diverse" students who were admitted.

When you say "diverse" do you mean white students?

If competence is the primary requirement (and legally and morally, that's what should be the main consideration), there shouldn't be a need for Offices of Diversity and Multiculturalism. And yet we have them.

Since you are talking about college entrances, I don't know anyone that was admitted to my college that wasn't competent. Not really sure what you are trying to say.
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
So Apple should have several Chinese executives in the boardroom?

Just one will do.

Your argument sounds nice, but from a practical standpoint, you hire people locally to address local cultural needs. What matters most is competence. If the best person for the job also happens to be from a different culture, that's a bonus.

If you can get someone local who is 95% as good generally but is of Chinese origin then they will probably be overall better for the company.
 

\-V-/

Suspended
May 3, 2012
3,153
2,688
I don’t think a lot of people realise how prejudiced they are, myself included. It’s only when it happens to you that you really get to know.
I’m not saying what race/sex/religion I am but examples;

When your daughter is hurt by a man of another, significantly different race.
Your sons sexuality doesn’t fit the norm of society.

The list goes on but you see what I mean.
I see what you mean, but I can't stand racism, bigotry, etc.. I grew up with it enough within my own family to absolutely despise it. I'm glad I was able to see through that crap at a young age and not follow in my father's hateful footsteps.
[doublepost=1453160785][/doublepost]
How do you know they are not qualified...? Like I said, you are focusing on the end and not the beginning.
Again, what are you talking about? I never claimed anyone was qualified. The only person focusing on anything here is you focusing on things that weren't said, but assumed. It makes for very unproductive conversation.

Creating diversity is more about end game opportunity than it is about simply giving somebody (or not) a job because of the colour of their skin etc.

What about a non-white child from an unprivileged background showing potential beyond his / her environmental expectation getting a scholarship to go to Oxford, or Harvard, to realise his / her potential, is this the same thing?

It is not so unlike a non-white, or minority Director given the 'opportunity' to do as good, or better job than his white / straight peers and rise to CEO surely?

What if that same child graduated higher than his peers and showed higher ability, only to be refused entry to the 'gentleman's club' that is at higher level corporation business, based on colour, sex, or sexual orientation?

It is not all about giving non-whites white peoples jobs, it is more about giving opportunity to allow non-whites / minorities to be allowed to do that job they are more than qualified to do, yet are unable to break the glass ceiling.

Do you think Tim Cook would be in his position 20 years ago? I am 100% sure he was not given his current job because he is Gay. He was given the job in spite of being Gay and allowed to show that he is now able to run arguably the most successful company in the world, as good as a straight man could. Possible better, as surely he would have been replaced by one by now...

This is what the Civil rights (and any other civil liberties) movement is all about and therefore in context to this, I do not feel my last post was off on a tangent as you may think.

Again, Happy MLK Day!
And yet another tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
 

larrylaffer

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2009
695
1,307
Los Angeles
Are you a journalist twisting things to make somebody look bad?

How about this journalistic marvel:

Why does Apple glorify a womanizer who plagiarized a lot of his doctoral dissertation and was under FBI surveillance (I'll leave it a that)

Apple is not aligning themselves.
They are simply honoring MLK on his day and using a very powerful quote!

That is at least the way I look at it.

I can't speak to your first two accusations, but being investigated by the FBI back then certainly meant a whole lot of nothing. They also investigated John Lennon, Hellen Keller (seriously), John Denver, Jackie Robinson, Walt Disney, Charlie Chaplain, Lucille Ball, and Rock Hudson (simply because he was gay).

So uh, who cares?
 

jonnyb098

macrumors 601
Nov 16, 2010
4,068
5,782
Michigan
Do you actually pay more than the minimum you're supposed to by law?
That's the problem. Tax bills are suggested and basically written by corporate lobbyists. So of course what Apple does by paying the lowest rate is not illegal. The corrupt tax code has allowed billions to be stashed overseas at a 1% tax rate......why? Because they donate millions to buy off all the politicians in Washington. Anyone thinking a couple million bucks comes with no strings attached needs to get their head out of their A$$
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost

jimbobb24

macrumors 68040
Jun 6, 2005
3,365
5,399
Letters from Birmingham Jail is amazing. He made the world a better place.
[doublepost=1453162846][/doublepost]
The first two I might give you, but hard to dis someone for being surveiled by Hoover.
Half of us are under surveillence by Obama right now. Hardly says anything about us.
 

Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,070
8,482
New Hampshire, USA
Do you actually pay more than the minimum you're supposed to by law?

You would be saying differently if this was your own income. You'd be arguing, along with everyone else, about how "right" it is to do the utmost to protect our hard-earned assets. If the government want tech companies' overseas taxes, they need to make their rate competitive enough to begin with.

It's not about taxes. I was just trying to make the point that SJW like Tim Cook have tunnel vision. They see everyone else's problems but refuse to acknowledge they might be wrong / have problems. I think Martin Luther King day should be celebrated but, Tim Cook should focus on running the company. We don't need a webpage from Apple to know what Martin Luther King accomplished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,389
31,628
I hate when people are dishonest. If you're going to show a photo of Apple's executive leadership page show the entire page (which includes two African American women). Perhaps I shouldn't expect anything different from a man posing as a woman.

CIPBj.jpg


I7K4e.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: cfedu

Bubba Satori

Suspended
Feb 15, 2008
4,726
3,756
B'ham
I7K4e.jpg


Let's be real here. Human resources and social initiatives aren't real jobs.
The only thing they produce is ridicule and resentment from workers
who actually produce things and have to deal with them.
It's affirmative tokenization and a sinister form of segregation.
Not a good example at all, imo.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 68000
Mar 22, 2010
1,543
11,786
I7K4e.jpg


Let's be real here. Human resources and social initiatives aren't real jobs.
The only thing they produce is ridicule and resentment from workers
who actually produce things and have to deal with them.
It's affirmative tokenization and a sinister form of segregation.
Not a good example at all, imo.

Your opinion differs from mine.
 

DUCKofD3ATH

Suspended
Jun 6, 2005
541
2,419
Universe 0 Timeline
I don't quite get your point as a response to my post. My post was in reply to the post I quoted, which was citing "diversity" as being "used to select people based on race. And that is racism whether you want to admit it or not."

I did not accept that as a premise and my point was that diversity in the workplace is about "removing barriers, not about installing preferences." So.... ?? :)

I found your post to be confused from the outset, so maybe we both misunderstood the people we quoted. For example:

nt5672 said:
Diversity is and if itself just pure racism. I know that is not politically correct, but the fact is, diversity is used to select people based on race. And that is racism whether you want to admit it or not.
and you replied

No, it's not. We're a diverse population. It makes sense to have a diverse workforce. You don't have to set hiring quotas in order to strive for diversity in a corporation, for instance. You do have to offer the jobs to applicants who may have diverse attributes other than just their education and experience, etc.
US law prohibits discrimination on everything except competence. So why do we need Offices of Diversity? We don't have Offices of Competence, even though that would actually be useful!

Your argument is that diversity helps lower barriers, but isn't it more likely that competence lowers barriers? A company with a competent workforce that happens to be diverse should perform better than one that doesn't have such a force. What more incentive is needed?

So diversity is a solution looking for a problem. Yes diversity makes sense, but so does breathing. Should we have an Office of Involuntary Reflexes to make sure all companies have breathing employees? Or is that silly? As silly as an Office of Diversity? Probably.
[doublepost=1453171986][/doublepost]
Did you actually read what I wrote?

Yup.

Only certain types of people think diversity is code for affirmative action.

Smart people. Diverse people. Amirite?

Btw - who do you think has benefited the most from affirmative action?

Lawyers.

When you say "diverse" do you mean white students?

Of course not! Everybody knows that white students have White Privilege that lets them slide into any job or opening they desire.

Since you are talking about college entrances, I don't know anyone that was admitted to my college that wasn't competent. Not really sure what you are trying to say.

Wow and yikes!
[doublepost=1453172142][/doublepost]
Just one will do.

Because?
 
Last edited:

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,389
31,628
I7K4e.jpg


Let's be real here. Human resources and social initiatives aren't real jobs.
The only thing they produce is ridicule and resentment from workers
who actually produce things and have to deal with them.
It's affirmative tokenization and a sinister form of segregation.
Not a good example at all, imo.
Are you kidding? In most companies the head of HR is an executive level position and one of the most important employees at the companies. Who are you to decide which jobs are "real jobs" or not. I've heard that there are only ~70 Vice Presidents at Apple so the ones on the executive leadership page that report directly to Cook are about as important as you can get.
 

Hastings101

macrumors 68020
Jun 22, 2010
2,347
1,470
K
Nice! A link to the MLK info page would help for people outside the USA

martinlutherking.org is a pretty good source of information, Apple should link there :D

Kidding, I just always thought it was hilarious that before Wikipedia was really big the first thing people used to see when they googled him was some tacky, angry attack site. I wonder how many people outside of the U.S. curious about American holidays have ended up there.
 

LovingTeddy

Suspended
Oct 12, 2015
1,848
2,153
Canada
The point being, if you had a way of paying less taxes, you would also be doing it. The Irish government simply has the lowest rates right now. For example, if the government doesn't tax savings in bank A but heavily taxes income in bank B, and if you saved all you money in bank A, is that "avoiding taxes?" This "fair" share you are talking about – how do you define "fair?" Is giving up more money than you have to "fair?" Do you wake up one day and have a sudden urge to pay more taxes? Apple pays all the taxes it owns from domestic sales and is simply keeping the overseas income stored in other countries. If you want your "fair" share of that money, you need to create a "fair" tax policy, in this case, one than is competitive to Ireland's. While I do agree that Apple has more money than it needs, I think no person or corporation should give up any more assets than it absolutely has to.

Fair? There is no absolute fair, but when company rather use their money to pay lawyer to cheat on its tax obligations, then I think everyone should give Apple a middle finger. When middle class person paying its tax obligations while gaint corporations and wealth 1% trying avoid taxes by using compliacted tax scheme, how can anyone think it is fair?

On one hand, Apple raising prices for any opportunity possible on other hand they trying to minimizing their tax obligations. This is absolutely disgusting.

Apple isn't using any crazy tax loopholes. It's pretty obvious - they have to choose a country in the EU to operate from, and they chose the one with the cheapest tax rates. It's the same as companies moving to different states to pay lower taxes.

Do you complain that a company moving from New York to Delaware is a tax cheat? It's the same thing. Ireland is sort of a state in the EU

Yes.

And it is not even that simple. Apple using tax loopholes in US tax code and moving their money from ireland to dutch to Caribbean countries. It is far from just moving state to state.

And yes, it may legal, but still shameful. When one company advertising how ethical they are and pretending as moral leader but trying hardest to avoid paying tax, then Apple is biggest hypocrite.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost

LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,768
36,276
Catskill Mountains
US law prohibits discrimination on everything except competence. So why do we need Offices of Diversity? We don't have Offices of Competence, even though that would actually be useful!

Your argument is that diversity helps lower barriers, but isn't it more likely that competence lowers barriers? A company with a competent workforce that happens to be diverse should perform better than one that doesn't have such a force. What more incentive is needed?

See I don't get where I said we needed an office of diversity. The other guy used "diversity" as if it were a behavior, whereas it is just an outcome or a state of being. He said this:

"Diversity is and if itself just pure racism. I know that is not politically correct, but the fact is, diversity is used to select people based on race. And that is racism whether you want to admit it or not."
as if it *were* some sort of "office of diversity", I guess. In reply perhaps I should have said something like the existence of diversity -- i.e., an outcome where the workplace is diverse -- shows that barriers like race or gender have not stood in the way of diverse people managing to land jobs.

"Diversity" is just a word, a noun, like "variety" or "assortment." And, it is an outcome, or state of being, not a causal factor or an action or a behavior.

The behavior of not putting racial or gender barriers up to prevent different people from applying to join the population of a workplace or university is not "diversity", it's nondiscriminatory behavior.

The behavior of putting up such barriers is discriminatory (and may be racist, if the discrimination is about race).

I think we are saying the same thing, approximately, but my focus was on the other poster's assertion that "diversity" itself, by which I believe he actually meant behavioral adherence to laws requiring nondiscrimination, was racist. And that is not so.

It is not racist for me to interview a black person and white person for a job and to pick either the white or black person depending on which I find more qualified for the job. Having more than one person on staff interview applicants is a good idea when you get a bunch of applicants with very similar qualifications.

Orchestral auditions are now sometimes done with the player behind a screen to minimize past tendency to hire male performers preferentially. Surely you would not suggest that the result of hiring a male in that case might be discriminatory? But a "blind" interview process doesn't transfer well to all types of work, so to be fair we have to work at ensuring it's the qualifications and not the other attributes that guide a selection.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ronntaylor

Bubba Satori

Suspended
Feb 15, 2008
4,726
3,756
B'ham
Are you kidding?

No, I'm not kidding.

Who are you to decide which jobs are "real jobs" or not.

You know what they say about opinions.

The last HR manager I had to deal with could barely spell
and thought hers was the most important job in the company.
She was so useless she was promoted to regional HR manager
to get her out of the store. She couldn't be fired short of murdering somebody.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mums
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.