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hagar

macrumors 68020
Jan 19, 2008
2,014
5,080
Because unlike many people, I don’t buy a product based on the company. I buy a product based on the product. Apple devices and software work well for me. I can buy Apple devices without supporting Pride. I simply don’t support Apple’s morals and beliefs.


I don’t hate my neighbors. I have friends and family members in the LGBTQ community. I love them. I will always love people as people, because we are all human, we are all made in the image of God, and we all deserve to be treated with love and respect by others. However, my love for LGBTQ people doesn’t extend to LGBTQ beliefs.

I love my lesbian cousin. I don’t believe she has made a wise decision in how she expresses her sexuality, but that doesn’t change my love for her. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Perfectly said! I rarely read comments here that so eloquently describe and expose their own hypocrisy. As a conservative you want to buy the product, but don’t care what the company stands for. You love your cousin but can’t accept who she is.

You do whatever you do to help you fall asleep at night. Even if it means calling your cousin a sinner for being her true self, all the while convincing yourself you’re the good guy by still loving her. But you seem to forget love doesn’t judge.

Reading your post, I’m more convinced than ever that conservative and hypocrite are merely synonyms.
 
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Darth Tulhu

macrumors 68020
Apr 10, 2019
2,258
3,778
Because unlike many people, I don’t buy a product based on the company. I buy a product based on the product. Apple devices and software work well for me. I can buy Apple devices without supporting Pride. I simply don’t support Apple’s morals and beliefs.
I personally feel there is a difference between supporting and agreeing with. There needs to be clarification about what this means.

For example, if a company openly supported Nazi or fascist ideology, I would NEVER buy their products. I cannot just ignore this and "focus on the product".

So it confuses me when people RAGE against Pride (and Apple's support of it) but still buy Apple products when Apple's position on Pride has been transparent forever.

I don’t hate my neighbors. I have friends and family members in the LGBTQ community. I love them. I will always love people as people, because we are all human, we are all made in the image of God, and we all deserve to be treated with love and respect by others. However, my love for LGBTQ people doesn’t extend to LGBTQ beliefs.

I love my lesbian cousin. I don’t believe she has made a wise decision in how she expresses her sexuality, but that doesn’t change my love for her. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
I understand, share, and respect your position on this. Sadly, I did not get that feeling from the poster I was responding to.

Unfortunately, in my experience a lot of (American) conservatives (that feel like you do) try to impose their beliefs where it impacts others in a real sense: the law.

So they SAY they love their neighbor, go to church every Sunday, but supported legislators who passed laws that criminalized homosexuality, interracial marriage, etc., and/or vote for and worship obvious white supremacists like Donald Trump in HUGE numbers. American history is consistent in this.

The word itself, "conservative", REJECTS change. And their fans are locked in a never-ending struggle with "liberals", literally those that are interested in personal "liberty".

Morality is a PERSONAL thing, and ANY that comes from religious sources should be vetted against secular rationale before being IMPOSED onto everyone by the law.

Otherwise we end up with the Taliban. And they, like all the irrationally ideological, are my enemy and (in my mind) the enemy of freedom.
 
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jhollington

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2008
532
591
Toronto
I personally feel there is a difference between supporting and agreeing with. There needs to be clarification about what this means.

For example, if a company openly supported Nazi or fascist ideology, I would NEVER buy their products. I cannot just ignore this and "focus on the product".

So it confuses me when people RAGE against Pride (and Apple's support of it) but still buy Apple products when Apple's position on Pride has been transparent forever.
Yeah, I think that line gets easily blurred. I support Apple's position on Pride. I support the company's right to have that position, I support the fact that this is an issue that's very important to many of its customers, and I even respect them for taking a stand on the issue. I also support and respect that in a free society, Apple should be free to do whatever it thinks is most appropriate for its business and customer base. Similarly, customers who can't support this are free to buy their luxury consumer electronics somewhere else.

I don't agree with Apple's position because it doesn't line up with my ideology, for a number of reasons. However, as I said, I also respect them for taking a stand, and my heart does break for the number of LGBTQ+ people who have suffered abuse at the hands of the self-righteous and homophobic zealots.

In fact, I actually do fully agree with and support Apple's involvement with Encircle (which it announced earlier this year). Nobody should have to suffer from the kind of hatred and abuse that's been cast upon the LGBTQ+ community.

To paraphrase the quote most often attributed to Voltaire, I may disagree what what you do, but I will also defend to the death your right to do it.

We would have a much kinder and gentler society if more people understood this way of thinking.

Unfortunately, in my experience a lot of (American) conservatives (that feel like you do) try to impose their beliefs where it impacts others in a real sense: the law.

So they SAY they love their neighbor, go to church every Sunday, but supported legislators who passed laws that criminalized homosexuality, interracial marriage, etc., and/or vote for and worship obvious white supremacists like Donald Trump in HUGE numbers. American history is consistent in this.
What's particularly unfortunate about this is that so many people who claim to be Christians are either not reading their Bibles at all, of they're very seriously cherry-picking from it.

For instance, I can't find anything in my Bible where Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and create a Christian nation, forcing people to obey all that I have commanded."

In fact, the Bible is full of counter-examples of this idea. Daniel in Babylon only opposed the laws where it affected him personally (such as individual prayer and dietary habits) — he didn't campaign to change the laws for everybody else. Similarly, the Apostle Paul clearly wrote in his letters that people were to respect authority, as it all comes from God — and he wrote that when Nero was feeding Christians to lions and burning them at the stake for sport.

Unfortunately, modern conservative ideology seems to fall along the lines of assuming the entire nation is ancient Israel, and should therefore be under the same kind of Old Testament law.

It's also important to note that the only people Jesus ever got truly mad at were the Pharisees, and that's because they claimed to know God and be representing His laws.

Morality is a PERSONAL thing, and ANY that comes from religious sources should be vetted against secular rationale before being IMPOSED onto everyone by the law.
Yup, that's what this thing called "democracy" is ultimately all about.

It's just as irrational to except people who don't believe in God to act like they do as it is to expect people who never served in the army to act like soldiers. Granted, as an ex-military man myself, I know a few people who have this mentality — in the very least they like to complain about "kids these days" and how "some military service would smarten them up" but even they're not going around on recruitment drives and trying to force schools to make kids get haircuts and hold marching drills.

There's no way everybody is ever going to agree on everything, but fortunately nobody important has ever said we have to. It's these kinds of differences that make society so fun and colourful at the end of the day — at least when people are spending more time loving each other and celebrating their differences and diversities than they are hating each other and lobbying self-righteous judgements around like the destructive little grenades they are.
 

Mr. Awesome

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2016
1,233
2,824
Idaho, USA
Perfectly said! I rarely read comments here that so eloquently describe and expose their own hypocrisy. As a conservative you want to buy the product, but don’t care what the company stands for. You love your cousin but can’t accept who she is.

You do whatever you do to help you fall asleep at night. Even if it means calling your cousin a sinner for being her true self, all the while convincing yourself you’re the good guy by still loving her. But you seem to forget love doesn’t judge.

Reading your post, I’m more convinced than ever that conservative and hypocrite are merely synonyms.
It’s a balance between grace and truth that we are called to as Christians. It is God’s job to judge, not mine.

I don’t judge my cousin for having a partner of the same sex, but I know that the Bible calls it a sin multiple times. The Bible also says no sin is worse than another.

Please keep in mind that I’m not “not accepting who she is.” I fully understand that she quite possibly has feelings of same-sex attraction. I do know that rather than living out that attraction, God tells us to either live a life of chastity or to find a spouse of the opposite sex.

I am no better or worse than my cousin when it comes to sin. I expect others not to judge me, but I do expect my friends and mentors to point out sin in my life that I don’t recognize for what it is.

Grace means loving others, even with sin and faults. Truth means loving them enough to reveal God to them.
 
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jhollington

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2008
532
591
Toronto
It’s a balance between grace and truth that we are called to as Christians. It is God’s job to judge, not mine.
Or as I once heard somebody say, "Love everybody and let God sort 'em out." ?

I am no better or worse than my cousin when it comes to sin. I expect others not to judge me, but I do expect my friends and mentors to point out sin in my life that I don’t recognize for what it is.
I think the key difference between a hypocritical "Christian" and somebody who is truly following the teachings of Christ is that the latter hates the sin in their own life even more than they hate it in their neighbours' lives.

As far as I'm concerned, this is what "love thy neighbour as thyself" really means.

As I said in an earlier post, the only people who truly made Jesus angry were those who thought that they had no sin at all because they believed they were living perfectly before God. There are still many people like that in today's churches, and I suspect that God is just as angry at those people today as He was at the Pharisees 2000 years ago.
 

Darth Tulhu

macrumors 68020
Apr 10, 2019
2,258
3,778
Or as I once heard somebody say, "Love everybody and let God sort 'em out." ?


I think the key difference between a hypocritical "Christian" and somebody who is truly following the teachings of Christ is that the latter hates the sin in their own life even more than they hate it in their neighbours' lives.

As far as I'm concerned, this is what "love thy neighbour as thyself" really means.

As I said in an earlier post, the only people who truly made Jesus angry were those who thought that they had no sin at all because they believed they were living perfectly before God. There are still many people like that in today's churches, and I suspect that God is just as angry at those people today as He was at the Pharisees 2000 years ago.
You sir, have restored my hope that there are still a few Christians out there that truly understand what the Bible ACTUALLY says, and how it relates (and is separate) to the way our Constitution and government are actually meant to be structured.

The religious right/Trump-supporting "Evangelicals" and their ilk throughout American history have COMPLETELY destroyed the reputation of real Christians to the point where identifying yourself as one means NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO WHAT YOU SAY.

Brilliant posts.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Hey give China a break. I just saw today that they are now allowing families to have 3 kids. That’s progress from the days of them killing baby girls or giving them away to other countries. ?

Ya, but we're still a long way off.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
I think they are hypocrites when they get into these things. They pimp what they can to make money and get people to talk about how progressive, etc they are, but when it comes to standing up to China on literally anything.....crickets.[…]
Apple has to conform to local laws, surprising there isn’t more who understand that. Does anyone think apple can “stand up” to the US government? Yet the above is oft repeated as if Apple threatening the government of China would result in anything positive. Apple will continue to do business there no matter what MR posters say.

And Apple will continue to stand for causes.
 

ugahairydawgs

macrumors 68030
Jun 10, 2010
2,960
2,457
Apple has to conform to local laws, surprising there isn’t more who understand that. Does anyone think apple can “stand up” to the US government? Yet the above is oft repeated as if Apple threatening the government of China would result in anything positive. Apple will continue to do business there no matter what MR posters say.

And Apple will continue to stand for causes.

They don't have to threaten anyone to say out loud that sticking Uighurs in concentration camps is bad.

I agree that they will continue to stand for causes. I will just continue to point out they only do so when taking the stand doesn't cost them $$ (and in fact loop most of the stands they do take into their product marketing). I get the business side on the why they do what they do in regard to China, but when they are simultaneously preaching for fundamental human rights on certain topics while completely ignoring the significant human rights violations in China they look like hypocrites to me.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,333
24,081
Gotta be in it to win it
They don't have to threaten anyone to say out loud that sticking Uighurs in concentration camps is bad.

I agree that they will continue to stand for causes. I will just continue to point out they only do so when taking the stand doesn't cost them $$ (and in fact loop most of the stands they do take into their product marketing). I get the business side on the why they do what they do in regard to China, but when they are simultaneously preaching for fundamental human rights on certain topics while completely ignoring the significant human rights violations in China they look like hypocrites to me.
Apple is not obligated to stand for every cause on the world. There’s plenty of fundamental causes in the US that need addressing. Apple is not hypocritical by not addressing what MR posters think they should. But I understand ymmv with respect to ones’ views of Apple.
 

Darth Tulhu

macrumors 68020
Apr 10, 2019
2,258
3,778
They don't have to threaten anyone to say out loud that sticking Uighurs in concentration camps is bad.

I agree that they will continue to stand for causes. I will just continue to point out they only do so when taking the stand doesn't cost them $$ (and in fact loop most of the stands they do take into their product marketing). I get the business side on the why they do what they do in regard to China, but when they are simultaneously preaching for fundamental human rights on certain topics while completely ignoring the significant human rights violations in China they look like hypocrites to me.
Speaking of hypocrisy, Trump-era America circa 2016:

Brownsville4-1-640x480.jpg
 

Khaleesi Kendall

macrumors regular
Mar 31, 2020
198
268
Yeah, a moral compass and passion for true equality will make you do that, go figure.
If that’s what you wanna call anyone being mad about this go for it lol.
Don’t worry for all the homophobes and transphobes, the months almost over.
 
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