Apple Says Revised U.S. Sideloading Bill Would 'Undermine the Privacy and Security Protections' iPhone Users Rely On

[Beautyspin]

@M3gatron @VulchR @I7guy @djphat2000

Just what is it, specifically that Apple vets on App Store apps?

We have scam apps, harvesting apps, knockoff apps, etc in the App Store.
Dev claims on what data the app utilizes but what does Apple do to verify that?

Is the fact it is part of the “Apple Experience” and people give little thought to it along with Apple‘s marketing that makes people feel it is safe?

Starting with the CSAM issue, I have taken a harder look at just what does Apple provide with its’ walled garden and it is far less “safe” than many are claiming and more Apple centered than I originally had thought.

They are not even a secure OS anymore with so many zero-day exploits that the bounty they pay for these exploits has come down drastically.

Why 'Zero Day' Android Hacking Now Costs More Than iOS Attacks

Brokers of so-called zero day exploits are paying out more for Android than iOS—which would have been unthinkable until recently.

www.wired.com

 

[dk001]

They are not even a secure OS anymore with so many zero-day exploits that the bounty they pay for these exploits has come down drastically.

Why 'Zero Day' Android Hacking Now Costs More Than iOS Attacks

Brokers of so-called zero day exploits are paying out more for Android than iOS—which would have been unthinkable until recently.

www.wired.com

That is very concerning.
I wasn’t even considering the OS in my previous post.

 

[M3gatron]

@M3gatron @VulchR @I7guy @djphat2000

Just what is it, specifically that Apple vets on App Store apps?

We have scam apps, harvesting apps, knockoff apps, etc in the App Store.
Dev claims on what data the app utilizes but what does Apple do to verify that?

Is the fact it is part of the “Apple Experience” and people give little thought to it along with Apple‘s marketing that makes people feel it is safe?

Starting with the CSAM issue, I have taken a harder look at just what does Apple provide with its’ walled garden and it is far less “safe” than many are claiming and more Apple centered than I originally had thought.

Exactly, when I download APKs on Android I don't just blindly download anything without a second thought, I generally do a little research and download apps that have been vetted and tested by different people, some more skilled and knowledgeable than me.
And to be honest I do the same with apps on Apps Store and Play Store because there's no real guarantee that any app there is perfectly secure. Being very trustful about apps from a certain source isn't a very healthy practice, even perfectly legit apps can be compromised and later compromise the devices they are installed on.

 

[I7guy]

@M3gatron @VulchR @I7guy @djphat2000

Just what is it, specifically that Apple vets on App Store apps?

We have scam apps, harvesting apps, knockoff apps, etc in the App Store.
Dev claims on what data the app utilizes but what does Apple do to verify that?

Is the fact it is part of the “Apple Experience” and people give little thought to it along with Apple‘s marketing that makes people feel it is safe?

Starting with the CSAM issue, I have taken a harder look at just what does Apple provide with its’ walled garden and it is far less “safe” than many are claiming and more Apple centered than I originally had thought.

How do you know if apple didn’t vet apps the app store would be a place apple didnt want in the first place? You didn’t seem to be the type of throw the baby out with the bath water poster.

 

[M3gatron]

They are not even a secure OS anymore with so many zero-day exploits that the bounty they pay for these exploits has come down drastically.

Why 'Zero Day' Android Hacking Now Costs More Than iOS Attacks

Brokers of so-called zero day exploits are paying out more for Android than iOS—which would have been unthinkable until recently.

www.wired.com

No surprise taking in consideration that objectively speaking Android is harder to hack into than iOS.

Adherents - technology and environmental policy to education

Latest news HBO Max Who’s who in ‘The Last of Us’: the best casting for the adaptation of the Naughty Dog video game By aliintizar71January 31, 20230 Movies Animated film "Light and the Rock" awarded at IndieJúnior Porto By aliintizar71January 31, 20230 Disney+ ‘Avatar 2’ also surpasses ‘The...

theglobalcoverage.com

 

[dk001]

How do you know if apple didn’t vet apps the app store would be a place apple didnt want in the first place? You didn’t seem to be the type of throw the baby out with the bath water poster.

Not at all.
I do know Apple does some vetting. Other than category and if it is an app that Apple takes exception to Apple doesn’t say exactly what they do. That is why I opened with a question.

When the CSAM debacle popped up, I tool a hard look at Apple privacy and security. One aspect was the App Store.
What I found was that details on what Apple really checks and how detailed that check is was vague at best.

The app stores (Apple and Google) are the safest places for the most part to get apps. Most people don’t even think about. They just get the app they want. I was pretty much one of those. I did do in depth checks on Android alternate apps. These days I now treat all apps irrespective of source as if I was sideloading.

 

[I7guy]

No surprise taking in consideration that objectively speaking Android is harder to hack into than iOS.

Adherents - technology and environmental policy to education

Latest news HBO Max Who’s who in ‘The Last of Us’: the best casting for the adaptation of the Naughty Dog video game By aliintizar71January 31, 20230 Movies Animated film "Light and the Rock" awarded at IndieJúnior Porto By aliintizar71January 31, 20230 Disney+ ‘Avatar 2’ also surpasses ‘The...

theglobalcoverage.com

Objectively speaking android has more severe vulnerabilities, imo.

 

[I7guy]

Not at all.
I do know Apple does some vetting. Other than category and if it is an app that Apple takes exception to Apple doesn’t say exactly what they do. That is why I opened with a question.

When the CSAM debacle popped up, I tool a hard look at Apple privacy and security. One aspect was the App Store.
What I found was that details on what Apple really checks and how detailed that check is was vague at best.

The app stores (Apple and Google) are the safest places for the most part to get apps. Most people don’t even think about. They just get the app they want. I was pretty much one of those. I did do in depth checks on Android alternate apps. These days I now treat all apps irrespective of source as if I was sideloading.

Great. So you treat all apps as if you were sideloading. Imo, people won’t in general. And because the iOS app store is allegedly a money maker, the iOS ecosystem will go downhill because of scamware, malware, porn, gambling and whatever else type of apps. Of course. NOne of this may come to pass, but the throw the baby out with the bath water seems to think that if some apps are scamware today, more scamware apps won’t make a difference.

 

[dk001]

Great. So you treat all apps as if you were sideloading. Imo, people won’t in general. And because the iOS app store is allegedly a money maker, the iOS ecosystem will go downhill because of scamware, malware, porn, gambling and whatever else type of apps. Of course. NOne of this may come to pass, but the throw the baby out with the bath water seems to think that if some apps are scamware today, more scamware apps won’t make a difference.

For most people you are very likely right - they don’t.

Not sure how you came up with that conclusion - ecosystem going downhill.

I would put forth that we wait for Apples’ solution before we start jumping to conclusions.
We appear to be back to the same talking point. Even if they (Apple) adopt something similar to Androids‘ solution, I don’t see it having a seriously negative impact. Android is doing just fine. Why would Apple be so different?

 

[deevey]

Objectively speaking android has more severe vulnerabilities, imo.

It was probably running Harmony OS, not Android.

 

[4743913]

Is there a thread for this? or does it go here?

Apple's appeal to dismiss Cydia's antitrust lawsuit rejected - 9to5Mac

Apple in 2020 was hit with an antitrust lawsuit filed by the developer of Cydia, a popular tool that acts...

9to5mac.com

 

[4743913]

That being said, I still believe in the motto "my product my rules" .

I agree. I own it. I should be able to install what I want on it.

 

[macjoshua]

Someone not liking the way a company conducts part of their business does not mean they hate the company or want to see it fail. I also don't think Apple is that fragile that if they ended up having to allow sideloading, alternative app stores, etc. they'd be out of business. Have more faith in the company.

I don't feel there is any company that deserves 100% support in everything they do in every aspect of their business.

I agree that no company deserves 100% support. I just think that the App Store approach is integral to what makes iOS (and Apple) successful. I have no intention of downloading apps outside of the store, but I don't look forward to the day when malware is a concern because of people who do. Having been in IT support and development for a long time, I can attest that most people are idiots when it comes to clicking random buttons and installing all sorts of crap on their devices. It won't put Apple out of business, but it will likely make the experience suck for everyone.

 

[webkit]

I agree that no company deserves 100% support. I just think that the App Store approach is integral to what makes iOS (and Apple) successful. I have no intention of downloading apps outside of the store, but I don't look forward to the day when malware is a concern because of people who do. Having been in IT support and development for a long time, I can attest that most people are idiots when it comes to clicking random buttons and installing all sorts of crap on their devices. It won't put Apple out of business, but it will likely make the experience suck for everyone.

I just find it hard to believe that Apple couldn't "safely" open up iOS to other app stores and give consumers choice on their particular device(s). If people still want to exclusively use Apple's App Store, great but if they want to use another app store or sideload, that should be an option too.

 

[Beautyspin]

Not at all.
I do know Apple does some vetting. Other than category and if it is an app that Apple takes exception to Apple doesn’t say exactly what they do. That is why I opened with a question.

When the CSAM debacle popped up, I tool a hard look at Apple privacy and security. One aspect was the App Store.
What I found was that details on what Apple really checks and how detailed that check is was vague at best.

The app stores (Apple and Google) are the safest places for the most part to get apps. Most people don’t even think about. They just get the app they want. I was pretty much one of those. I did do in depth checks on Android alternate apps. These days I now treat all apps irrespective of source as if I was sideloading.

Probably the only vetting it does is to see if the developer is not sneaking in some changes that would cheat Apple of its cut. Just kidding

 

[Michael Scrip]

Probably the only vetting it does is to see if the developer is not sneaking in some changes that would cheat Apple of its cut.

Just kidding

You raise a good point, though.

If there are developers who try to sneak stuff into their apps in the App Store and hope they don't get discovered when Apple checks them...

Imagine the apps by developers who offer sideloaded apps on their website when NOBODY checks them?

?

 

[Beautyspin]

Great. So you treat all apps as if you were sideloading. Imo, people won’t in general. And because the iOS app store is allegedly a money maker, the iOS ecosystem will go downhill because of scamware, malware, porn, gambling and whatever else type of apps. Of course. NOne of this may come to pass, but the throw the baby out with the bath water seems to think that if some apps are scamware today, more scamware apps won’t make a difference.

It already has many scam apps from the Appstore itself. Apple is busy getting 30% cut from these guys. Lol!

Apple’s tightly controlled App Store is teeming with scams

Apple claims its App Store is carefully curated so that only the best apps get through. The truth is, the App Store is littered with scams and "fleeceware," which uses fake user ratings to trick customers into paying for something they don't want.

www.washingtonpost.com

Developer exposes another multimillion dollar scam app on the App Store - 9to5Mac

While Apple claims the App Store has "the apps you love" in a place "you can trust," a developer has shown time and time again that this is not true.

9to5mac.com

Developers complain that Apple promotes scam apps on the App Store

Apple removed the story promoting the apps after developers pointed it out.

arstechnica.com

 

[I7guy]

It already has many scam apps from the Appstore itself. Apple is busy getting 30% cut from these guys. Lol!

Apple’s tightly controlled App Store is teeming with scams

Apple claims its App Store is carefully curated so that only the best apps get through. The truth is, the App Store is littered with scams and "fleeceware," which uses fake user ratings to trick customers into paying for something they don't want.

www.washingtonpost.com

Developer exposes another multimillion dollar scam app on the App Store - 9to5Mac

While Apple claims the App Store has "the apps you love" in a place "you can trust," a developer has shown time and time again that this is not true.

9to5mac.com

Developers complain that Apple promotes scam apps on the App Store

Apple removed the story promoting the apps after developers pointed it out.

arstechnica.com

Throw the baby out with the bath water then?

 

[Michael Scrip]

It already has many scam apps from the Appstore itself. Apple is busy getting 30% cut from these guys. Lol!

Apple’s tightly controlled App Store is teeming with scams

Apple claims its App Store is carefully curated so that only the best apps get through. The truth is, the App Store is littered with scams and "fleeceware," which uses fake user ratings to trick customers into paying for something they don't want.

www.washingtonpost.com

Developer exposes another multimillion dollar scam app on the App Store - 9to5Mac

While Apple claims the App Store has "the apps you love" in a place "you can trust," a developer has shown time and time again that this is not true.

9to5mac.com

Developers complain that Apple promotes scam apps on the App Store

Apple removed the story promoting the apps after developers pointed it out.

arstechnica.com

Yes yes... we know there are scam apps in the App store. Unfortunately.

What we're unclear of is how many apps don't get into the App Store because Apple blocks them. Those apps don't even get the chance to scam people.

It could be that for every one bad app in the App Store... there are a hundred others that were simply turned away.

I'll take those odds!

What I'm worried about is when anyone can download any ol' app from some website... and that cool new "Face AI" app has paid upgrades but is actually charging you weekly.

And the company is based in Russia.

Good luck getting them on the phone for customer service.

You'll have to be issued a new credit card to stop the scam.

So yeah... you can show us a list of scammy apps on the App Store. Feel free.

But let's not forget that there have been tens of billions of legitimate downloads.

This kinda reminds me of seatbelts.

We know seatbelts save lives.

And yet some people die wearing a seatbelt.

Saying "See? There are scam apps in the App Store" is kinda like saying "See? Seatbelts don't work! People die wearing them!"

 

[mjs916]

2 words: guest network

Yep. I do this and try to keep my fiancée from giving out our main network password. She still does so I have to block others off of it and force them onto the guest ?.

I tried to explain why but she doesn’t get it so I’ve just left it at “Netflix looks better and music sounds better”.

 

[Beautyspin]

Yes yes... we know there are scam apps in the App store. Unfortunately.

What we're unclear of is how many apps don't get into the App Store because Apple blocks them. Those apps don't even get the chance to scam people.

It could be that for every one bad app in the App Store... there are a hundred others that were simply turned away.

I'll take those odds!

What I'm worried about is when anyone can download any ol' app from some website... and that cool new "Face AI" app has paid upgrades but is actually charging you weekly.

And the company is based in Russia.

Good luck getting them on the phone for customer service.

You'll have to be issued a new credit card to stop the scam.

So yeah... you can show us a list of scammy apps on the App Store. Feel free.

But let's not forget that there have been tens of billions of legitimate downloads.

This kinda reminds me of seatbelts.

We know seatbelts save lives.

And yet some people die wearing a seatbelt.

Saying "See? There are scam apps in the App Store" is kinda like saying "See? Seatbelts don't work! People die wearing them!"

So where are the so-called scam apps now on Windows, MacOS, Linux, and all the other systems that allow sideloading? Or will only the iOS users be exposed to these scam apps the minute they allow sideloading?

 

[Beautyspin]

Throw the baby out with the bath water then?

Until Apple demonstrates that it actually does vetting/screening of the Apps, I guess remove this consideration as one of the deciding factors about alternate app stores. I mean, the minimal work that Apple does on its stores is something anybody can do. In fact, dedicated stores may be able to do a better job as they will be laser focused whereas for Apple, this is just one of the many streams of income. Especially, since the users (both end-users and developers who use the store) can only complain but can go nowhere else (until now, that is). For alternate stores, if they fail, they will be out of business. For Apple, it does not matter so much.

 

[Michael Scrip]

So where are the so-called scam apps now on Windows, MacOS, Linux, and all the other systems that allow sideloading? Or will only the iOS users be exposed to these scam apps the minute they allow sideloading?

If there are scam apps by jerky developers in Apple's highly restrictive app store... I can only imagine there will be even more scam apps on websites where there are no restrictions.

Why wouldn't there be?

Jerky developers look for any chance to scam people. If developers can trick people into downloading some app that wants to misuse your credit card number... they will.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Honestly... I don't see sideloading getting much traction.

Android has had sideloading and alternative app stores since... forever.

And yet almost all Android apps come from Google's official app store.

So... will iOS be the reason sideloading and alternative app stores are finally cool?

Again... we'll have to wait and see.

As for Windows, Mac and Linux... I don't think they come anywhere close to the number of downloads that mobile gets.

I think it's something like 200 billion mobile app downloads per year. That's a much bigger target than desktop.

 

[Beautyspin]

If there are scam apps by jerky developers in Apple's highly restrictive app store... I can only imagine there will be even more scam apps on websites where there are no restrictions.

Why wouldn't there be?

Jerky developers look for any chance to scam people. If developers can trick people into downloading some app that wants to misuse your credit card number... they will.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Honestly... I don't see sideloading getting much traction.

Android has had sideloading and alternative app stores since... forever.

And yet almost all Android apps come from Google's official app store.

So... will iOS be the reason sideloading and alternative app stores are finally cool?

Again... we'll have to wait and see.

As for Windows, Mac and Linux... I don't think they come anywhere close to the number of downloads that mobile gets.

I think it's something like 200 billion mobile app downloads per year. That's a much bigger target than desktop.

Appstore has scam apps because Apple promotes them.

Developers complain that Apple promotes scam apps on the App Store

Apple removed the story promoting the apps after developers pointed it out.

arstechnica.com

Usage share of operating systems - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As of April 2022, Android, an operating system using the Linux kernel, is the world's most-used operating system when judged by web use. It has 43% of the global market, followed by Windows with 30%, Apple iOS with 17%, macOS with 6%, then (desktop) Linux at 0.98% also using the Linux kernel.

 

[Michael Scrip]

As of April 2022, Android, an operating system using the Linux kernel, is the world's most-used operating system when judged by web use. It has 43% of the global market, followed by Windows with 30%, Apple iOS with 17%, macOS with 6%, then (desktop) Linux at 0.98% also using the Linux kernel.

Ugh.

When you mentioned Linux in the same sentence alongside Windows and MacOS... I assumed you were talking about Linux on desktop PCs.

Sorry I didn't realize you were also including mobile Linux (Android) too.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Appstore has scam apps because Apple promotes them.

Thank you for posting that same Ars Technica link twice in less than three hours. We get it.

But since we're repeating things... let me say this again:

If scammy developers want to put scammy apps in the app store... where they actually run the risk of being rejected by Apple... but some still sneak through...

What makes you think there won't be scammy developers putting scammy apps on their own website where nobody is checking them?

I don't think the solution to "there are scam apps in the App Store" should be "we will allow downloads from anywhere..."