Apple Subject to 'Special Abuse Control' Says German Antitrust Regulator [Updated]

[BaldiMac]

"Preliminary findings" is the exact wording used by the authority itself in their announcement (emphasis mine):

Fair enough. Your quote said "initial suspicions".

From the announcement, the authority seems indeed to take issue with Apple being able to combine data from its own ecosystem:

I don't know which information the authority considered during their "preliminary findings", but it's clear that at least in this initial phase the information they had was not satisfactory to them.

I looked for more detailed documents but found nothing: I guess until the proceeding reaches some new milestone that's all we will get.

I don't understand the logic here. Any company can track users across it's own properties through logins. Not sure where the logic is that Apple is treating them differently.

 

[bsolar]

Fair enough. Your quote said "initial suspicions".

Well, actually that exact wording is also used in the above mentioned announcement by the authority when they explain how the proceeding came to be (again, emphasis mine):

Apple’s rules have raised the initial suspicion of self-preferencing and/or impediment of other companies, which will be examined in the proceeding.

It's also in the short description they use in the regular reports where they detail all ongoing proceedings, which is from where the quote you mention comes from.

I don't understand the logic here. Any company can track users across it's own properties through logins. Not sure where the logic is that Apple is treating them differently.

I guess the only way to really know will be to wait until the authority provides more information.

 

[BaldiMac]

Well, actually that exact wording is also used in the above mentioned announcement by the authority when they explain how the proceeding came to be (again, emphasis mine):



It's also in the short description they use in the regular reports where they detail all ongoing proceedings, which is from where the quote you mention comes from.

Okay? I'm not sure what your point is here. I accepted your original explanation.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This is not what the preliminary findings by the German authority stated: they explicitly stated that Apple was excluded by some of the new rules they impose on third-parties.

I’d think there’s zero doubt that Apple was excluded, that shouldn’t even be a question. The rules target third party tracking across apps/websites from different corporations. As Apple doesn’t engage in this, the rules obviously don’t apply to them.

 

[Vref]

You don't seem to understand what spy agency collaboration is supposed to be about.

It is perfectly normal, for instance, that NATO member agencies swap notes about Russia, China or other potential or current threats, as an example.

it would be stupid and negligent not to!

Your conclusion from just any collaboration between spy agencies appears to be, however, that this collaboration had to mean that they'd also spy on citizens of their own countries either directly or indirectly outside of oversight or the reach of the respective court systems, and that is false.

Specifically in Germany this would be completely illegal and very much under our courts' jurisdiction!

Of course as with any other crime it needs to be discovered before it becomes a public scandal and a court case, but the illegality of such activities is in no way limited by that!

And german services are limited more tightly in what they can legally do by international law automatically applying as well. So as I've already said: These things are more complicated than ready-made conspiracy theories promise to make them!

Tightly limited? [laughs in Snowden revelations]

Historically your own government is more likely to kill you than any other government

 

[Vref]

You are apparently oblivious to the fact that secret services / spy agencies in all countries are effectively their illegal arms – ideally only against foreign countries and only against their laws, but especially in democracies it's an always ongoing challenge to keep their tentacles from reaching out to domestic citizens as well.

And it is rightly a scandal in any democracy when that happens – just the protections afforded by the Bundesverfassungsgericht apply only to residents in or just to citizens of Germany, not to foreigners in foreign lands; That is the fundamental principle of all spy agencies!

Democracies, of course, are not supposed to have internal spy agencies (which tyrannical regimes almost always do) and police needs to be under strict legal supervision.

Yes, this is one of the ongoing challenges in all democracies.

And yes, even democracies have been known to misuse their "foreign-illegal" spy agencies to spy on each others' populations and then swapping notes, but again under the rule of law that is illegal and rightfully a scandal when it is uncovered.

Just your blanket conclusion that total cynicism was the only possibly realistic view is still false: It's actually complicated, and in democracies it can't be simple or easy!

What about constitutional republics?

I’d never want to live in a democracy

 

[BaldiMac]

What about constitutional republics?

I’d never want to live in a democracy

That implies that you want a government run by unelected leaders (such as a monarchy). The US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. For some reason, there is a conservative myth that the US "not a democracy, it is a republic" that just won't die.

 

[robco74]

That implies that you want a government run by unelected leaders (such as a monarchy). The US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. For some reason, there is a conservative myth that the US "not a democracy, it is a republic" that just won't die.

The US is a geriatric corporatist oligarchy. We haven't been a democracy in years.

 

[Vref]

That implies that you want a government run by unelected leaders (such as a monarchy). The US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. For some reason, there is a conservative myth that the US "not a democracy, it is a republic" that just won't die.

Having a backbone of a constitution with a further reaffirmed bill of rights keeps the majority from trampling the minorities rights

Mob rule isn’t a good thing

 

[BaldiMac]

Having a backbone of a constitution with a further reaffirmed bill of rights keeps the majority from trampling the minorities rights

Mob rule isn’t a good thing

Absolutely! But an unelected minority trampling the rights of the majority isn't any better.

As I said, the US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. Both features are essential to it's success. Anti-democracy tactics like gerrymandering and the independent state legislature theory are unequivocably bad things. Unlimited corporate and billionaire political spending are anti-republic. These are the issues that we need to address as a nation to move forward. Not who gets a beer can with their face on it.

 

[Vref]

Absolutely! But an unelected minority trampling the rights of the majority isn't any better.

As I said, the US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. Both features are essential to it's success. Anti-democracy tactics like gerrymandering and the independent state legislature theory are unequivocably bad things. Unlimited corporate and billionaire political spending are anti-republic. These are the issues that we need to address as a nation to move forward. Not who gets a beer can with their face on it.

With a proper constitution / BoR like we have and after further reaffirming in the federalist papers, the founding fathers made it so no majority OR minority could trample those rights, they even gave us the 2nd amendment to make sure the rest of the rights had teeth

The last place I would want to live would be a straight up democracy, having that bill of rights that doesn’t care about how many Karen’s have a fit over something, that is what gives us freedom

Someone once said a democracy is where two muggers want your watch, you want to keep your watch, they both vote to rob you, you vote not to get robbed, 2 to 1, you just got democracied

 

[BaldiMac]

With a proper constitution / BoR like we have and after further reaffirming in the federalist papers, the founding fathers made it so no majority OR minority could trample those rights, they even gave us the 2nd amendment to make sure the rest of the rights had teeth

The last place I would want to live would be a straight up democracy, having that bill of rights that doesn’t care about how many Karen’s have a fit over something, that is what gives us freedom

Someone once said a democracy is where two muggers want your watch, you want to keep your watch, they both vote to rob you, you vote not to get robbed, 2 to 1, you just got democracied

You seem to be trying to set up a false dichotomy between democracy and a constitutional republic. There isn't one. The both necessarily coexist in the US system.

As far as democracy being the last place you'd want to live, I can't imagine that any reasonable person would consider that worse than no democracy at all. Monarchies, military dictatorships, theocracies, etc. would all be far worse than a "straight up democracy" to me.

 

[Vref]

You seem to be trying to set up a false dichotomy between democracy and a constitutional republic. There isn't one. The both necessarily coexist in the US system.

As far as democracy being the last place you'd want to live, I can't imagine that any reasonable person would consider that worse than no democracy at all. Monarchies, military dictatorships, theocracies, etc. would all be far worse than a "straight up democracy" to me.

Depends on the charter of the populous vs the character of the queen, general, etc

But I will say I believe the US bill of rights is probably one of the best documents ever written

 

[monstermash]

Roughly 40% market share for iOS in Germany. That’s a big number for the maker of a proprietary solution in said market.

Yeah. It's almost as if they're supplying what consumers want.

 

[monstermash]

That implies that you want a government run by unelected leaders (such as a monarchy). The US is both a constitutional republic and a representative democracy. For some reason, there is a conservative myth that the US "not a democracy, it is a republic" that just won't die.

I would MUCH prefer to live in a republic without "leaders" being "elected" by the general public.

 

[ericwn]

Yeah. It's almost as if they're supplying what consumers want.

Which now comes down to two options pretty much. Great variety of choice indeed.

 

[monstermash]

Which now comes down to two options pretty much. Great variety of choice indeed.

As long as one of those options is the one I want, two choices is one too many for me.

Honestly, how many freaking web browsers do you need to choose from? No real reason for there to be hundreds.

Same for word processors, spreadsheets, and other software. Just a couple of choices is JUST FINE!

Frankly, I think most of the time, there are just too many choices for most things in life. Think about the percentage of an average grocery store (and that's grocery store, not megamart that sells everything from car tires to lemons) shelf space that is dedicated to potato chips (and all their derivatives). My local crap grocery store probably has at least 50 different items from which to choose. Sure, choice is great, but I just want some damned potato chips! A few choices is fine!

I think the "regulators" need to get over (supposedly) trying to ensure that all the "small players" have a chance to compete. I say screw that. You're too late! You're too late to market, you missed your chance, and if you can't manage to get people to use your stupid phone operating system, web browser, chat program or whatever else, then too bad for you!

The very last thing in the world I want is for regulators to mess up what I consider to be a good thing, which is a WELL INTEGRATED STACK of hardware and software that I can depend on, and without having to make a bazillion decisions about this, that and the other, when whatever Apple includes is just fine with me.

 

[ericwn]

As long as one of those options is the one I want, two choices is one too many for me.

Honestly, how many freaking web browsers do you need to choose from? No real reason for there to be hundreds.

Same for word processors, spreadsheets, and other software. Just a couple of choices is JUST FINE!

Frankly, I think most of the time, there are just too many choices for most things in life. Think about the percentage of an average grocery store (and that's grocery store, not megamart that sells everything from car tires to lemons) shelf space that is dedicated to potato chips (and all their derivatives). My local crap grocery store probably has at least 50 different items from which to choose. Sure, choice is great, but I just want some damned potato chips! A few choices is fine!

I think the "regulators" need to get over (supposedly) trying to ensure that all the "small players" have a chance to compete. I say screw that. You're too late! You're too late to market, you missed your chance, and if you can't manage to get people to use your stupid phone operating system, web browser, chat program or whatever else, then too bad for you!

The very last thing in the world I want is for regulators to mess up what I consider to be a good thing, which is a WELL INTEGRATED STACK of hardware and software that I can depend on, and without having to make a bazillion decisions about this, that and the other, when whatever Apple includes is just fine with me.

Solution for you is easy: stop reading news articles and just listen to Apple. Luckily many of us have more complex aspirations.

 

[BaldiMac]

Depends on the charter of the populous vs the character of the queen, general, etc

But I will say I believe the US bill of rights is probably one of the best documents ever written

I would MUCH prefer to live in a republic without "leaders" being "elected" by the general public.

Republics that are not democracies don't usually turn out very well.

"Republics that are not democracies include China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, and Syria. Historically, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were also republics."

 

[Vref]

Republics that are not democracies don't usually turn out very well.

"Republics that are not democracies include China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, and Syria. Historically, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were also republics."

*constitutional republic

 

[BaldiMac]

*constitutional republic

Okay? Not sure how that changes the problem. China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, etc. all have constitutions.

The problem with a republic without democracy is that there is no check on those in power other than violence.

 

[Vref]

Okay? Not sure how that changes the problem. China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, etc. all have constitutions.

The problem with a republic without democracy is that there is no check on those in power other than violence.

They have crap constitutions

Having the rights America has, especially as written by the founding fathers who fought for their freedom, and WON, from what at the time was the most powerful and possible more oppressive country on earth, that’s the difference

I mean name one other country with say the first two rights the US Has, freedom of speech and the right to bear arms?

 

[BaldiMac]

They have crap constitutions

Having the rights America has, especially as written by the founding fathers who fought for their freedom, and WON, from what at the time was the most powerful and possible more oppressive country on earth, that’s the difference

But the US is a democracy! Without that, it all falls apart.

I mean name one other country with say the first two rights the US Has, freedom of speech and the right to bear arms?

Czech Republic, Guatemala, Ukraine...

 

[Vref]

But the US is a democracy! Without that, it all falls apart.


Czech Republic, Guatemala, Ukraine...

Not a democracy

And no, they don’t, especially UKR

 

[BaldiMac]

Not a democracy

And no, they don’t, especially UKR

If you're just going to make stuff up, then I'm done. Thanks.