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Mac32

Suspended
Nov 20, 2010
1,263
454
The problem is that this so-called transparency will consist of false data or outright lies masquerading as goodwill on behalf of big corporations like Apple. Apple has very little credibility in this area at the present, they really have to work hard to redeem themselves if they want to regain their credibility.
This is a positive development to be followed closely, but one should retain a strong sense of scepsis towards the information presented.
 
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Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
6,225
10,170
San Jose, CA
Two bad results we already know about is that Snowdon delivered his stolen national security secrets directly to China and Russia.
Actually, we don't know that. Snowden strongly denies it in his letter to Senator Humphrey:
My intention, which I outlined when this began, is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them. I remain committed to that. Though reporters and officials may never believe it, I have not provided any information that would harm our people - agent or not - and I have no intention to do so.

Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China).
In any case, all this vilification of Snowden by the government and some media outlets is really just a diversion from the real issues: the constitutionality of the NSA's bulk data collection and the secret laws interpreted by secret courts without any meaningful oversight or transparency.
 

Rog210

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2004
195
3
Two bad results we already know about is that Snowdon delivered his stolen national security secrets directly to China and Russia. You know, two places on Earth where personal privacy and the rule of law are the most respected. You couldn't cut that irony with a chainsaw.

Do you have anything to back up that bold claim?
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Actually, we don't know that. Snowden strongly denies it in his letter to Senator Humphrey:
In any case, all this vilification of Snowden by the government and some media outlets is really just a diversion from the real issues: the constitutionality of the NSA's bulk data collection and the secret laws interpreted by secret courts without any meaningful oversight or transparency.

Actually, if you read this for content you will see no denial of any kind. Snowdon may not have intended to deliver secrets to these governments, but it is generally presumed that they now have them, since it was all on his laptop computer(s). If you disbelieve that the Chinese and Russian intelligence services had their way with his computers, then you belong in the Naive Hall of Fame.

I am not "vilifying" Snowdon, and I am not a media outlet. I am simply stating the facts as we know them.

Do you have anything to back up that bold claim?

Only every decent reportage on this story that I have read to date. Other than that, nothing.

And why exactly is Putin being so magnanimous in his remarks about the Snowden situation? Because his intelligence services already have everything they could want out of him. They don't really care where he goes now.
 
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TouchMint.com

macrumors 68000
May 25, 2012
1,625
318
Phoenix
Now that it's public they gotta try to push blame somewhere. They were never the bad guys lol.

Honestly I could care less about them collecting data/info on my boring life. Can't wait til this blows over.
 

Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
6,225
10,170
San Jose, CA
since it was all on his laptop computer(s). If you disbelieve that the Chinese and Russian intelligence services had their way with his computers, then you belong in the Naive Hall of Fame.
Even if they did, you don't know that the information was stored on the laptops. It could just as well be stored distributed across the Internet. Snowden obviously has the technical expertise to protect information using encryption, information dispersal, steganography and other methods.
I am simply stating the facts as we know them.
You are speculating.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Even if they did, you don't know that the information was stored on the laptops. It could just as well be stored distributed across the Internet. Snowden obviously has the technical expertise to protect information using encryption, information dispersal, steganography and other methods.
You are speculating.

Example?

I like to have something called "evidence" before I run around accusing people of treason.

For one,

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/w...en-digging-in-deeper-20130715,0,7072076.story

For another, I accused nobody of treason. If you want to discuss this with me, you have to stick to arguments I have actually made and not put words in my mouth. A firm rule.
 

Ralf The Dog

macrumors regular
May 1, 2008
192
0
Actually, if you read this for content you will see no denial of any kind. Snowdon may not have intended to deliver secrets to these governments, but it is generally presumed that they now have them, since it was all on his laptop computer(s). If you disbelieve that the Chinese and Russian intelligence services had their way with his computers, then you belong in the Naive Hall of Fame...

I am sure, he was smart enough to break the information into smaller blocks, so he could release it in segments, only the parts he wanted to. Then, I am sure he used the open source version of PGP to encrypt the data, then placed it on a number of free servers, all over the world, using different accounts under different names and different email addresses.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
I am sure, he was smart enough to break the information into smaller blocks, so he could release it in segments, only the parts he wanted to. Then, I am sure he used the open source version of PGP to encrypt the data, then placed it on a number of free servers, all over the world, using different accounts under different names and different email addresses.

For another,

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...899_1_intelligence-nsa-u-s-defense-department

The idea that Snowden is smarter and has more technical resources at his service than the Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies is laughably naive.
 

Rog210

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2004
195
3
For one,

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/w...en-digging-in-deeper-20130715,0,7072076.story

For another, I accused nobody of treason. If you want to discuss this with me, you have to stick to arguments I have actually made and not put words in my mouth. A firm rule.

You said, "we already know about is that Snowdon delivered his stolen national security secrets directly to China and Russia." That's treason, I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Also, your link provides no evidence whatsoever that he has given anything to any foreign government. It's just another columnist flapping her gums like the rest of them.
 

3282868

macrumors 603
Jan 8, 2009
5,281
0
not a nanny socialistic state. :mad:

I agree with everything aside from the last sentence. Having the benefit of a multi-cultural upbringing and life experiences (raised in the U.K., lived in Germany, and now between NYC and upstate NY), many first world socialized democracies implement successful systems such as healthcare and education. There is a major difference between Marxism, Communism and "Socialized Democracies". Without such, the U.S. could not provide education, police forces, fireman, etc. which are gradually being cut as funding is increasingly pooled into our military complex. We spend more on our military than any other first world nation, we outspend North Korea 75 to 1. Other first world nations can afford to better education and healthcare systems as they do not spend roughly 51% of federal taxes on their military budget.

There are far more government funded services than "handouts" that were once established under good pretense. It is a shame some programs have become abused. Having studied American history purely out of interest, previous generations who benefitted from assistance were ashamed and worked hard to better themselves, to become independent. This was in a time when people worked hard, and the system helped them achieve a better life, benefiting the country as a whole by strengthening our education system and workforce. Two or three generations later, and the system devolved by those taking advantage without using it to better their lives.

Pres. Obama has actually cut a lot of funding for such programs, or at least retooled them. I was recently shocked to learn that the GWB administration established the most social programs than any President to date. Look into that fact, it shocked the **** out of me. :)
 
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Rog210

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2004
195
3
I agree with everything aside from the last sentence. Having been raised in the U.K., lived in Germany, and now between NYC and upstate NY, I have had the benefit of living in a socialized democracy (which is not Marxism or Communism). The U.S. has had socialist programs for decades; teachers, civil servants, firemen, army, military, medicare - there are far more government funded services we all use than the supposed "handouts" that were once established under good pretense in rough times such as "The Great Depression", post World War economies, racial bias around the mid-20th century, etc. It is a shame some programs have become abused. Having studied in American history purely out of interest, you would be surprised that the generation who benefitted from aid were ashamed and worked hard to better themselves to become independent. This was in a time when people worked hard, and the system helped them achieve a better life, benefiting the country as a whole by strengthening our education system and workforce. Two or three generations later, and the system devolved by those taking advantage of it without using it for bettering their lives.

Pres. Obama has actually cut a lot of funding for such programs, or at least retooled them. I was recently shocked to learn that the GWB administration established the most social programs than any President to date. Look into that fact, it shocked the **** out of me. :)

The US has the biggest welfare program ever conceived, the Millitary-Industrial complex. The NSA, Booz Allen and Edward Snowden are at the heart of that program.
 

Ralf The Dog

macrumors regular
May 1, 2008
192
0
For another,

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...899_1_intelligence-nsa-u-s-defense-department

The idea that Snowden is smarter and has more technical resources at his service than the Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies is laughably naive.
Any military grade or better encryption outputs data with a flat standard deviation. It is mathematically impossible to distinguish encrypted output from a list of random numbers, after the headers have been stripped. Take PGP, encrypt the message using a 4k key. strip the headers, then encrypt that file with a second 4k key. The results are an effective key size of 4K^2.

If you were to take every electron on the Earth and turn it into a super computer, it would take longer than the life of the sun to break the encryption. The open source version of PGP can me modified to use keys much larger than 4k. Every bit you ad doubles the time required to break the encryption. If 256 bit encryption is thought to be unbreakable, how hard is 32 million bit encryption? Double layer it and it becomes 32 million ^2 bit encryption.

All this assumes the files are on his computer. Assuming he took the basic precautions any reasonable security professional would take, the highly encrypted files are distributed on multiple Freenet nodes or such.
 

3282868

macrumors 603
Jan 8, 2009
5,281
0
The US has the biggest welfare program ever conceived, the Millitary-Industrial complex. The NSA, Booz Allen and Edward Snowden are at the heart of that program.

Yup. Agree, on that note some need to use caution in their terminology. The media has used hot button topics and misinformation to increase ratings and enraging/rallying people though fear induced tactics and rhetoric. There is an extreme difference between "Socialized Democracy" and 'Communism". Our military complex receives the most funding, roughly 51% of our tax dollars, while our education system and healthcare is one of the worst ranked systems among other first world nations. It's sad that we outspend N. Korea.

I rewrote my post to clarify some points and shorten it. :)
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
You said, "we already know about is that Snowdon delivered his stolen national security secrets directly to China and Russia." That's treason, I'm not putting words in your mouth.

Also, your link provides no evidence whatsoever that he has given anything to any foreign government. It's just another columnist flapping her gums like the rest of them.

Yes you are, because I never used the word, and did not plan to use that or any other emotionally charged word to describe what he has done. All I know is, he has been charged with espionage. Once again, I will tell you what I am thinking. You will not tell me.

As I actually said already (why oh why do I need to repeat everything?), Snowden may not have intended to deliver this information to the Chinese and Russians. But the plain facts are, he did. I pointed out the irony, which did not escape my notice.

Evidence? You mean if a person is not hangin' with Ed Snowden then they can have no access to reason, knowledge, or logic on the subject? I note that you haven't provided a shred of evidence to back up your claim that the Russian and Chinese security services are incapable of decrypting computer files. The reason why I suspect is because the concept is so plainly laughable that it's easier to just try to change the subject.

----------

Any military grade or better encryption outputs data with a flat standard deviation. It is mathematically impossible to distinguish encrypted output from a list of random numbers, after the headers have been stripped. Take PGP, encrypt the message using a 4k key. strip the headers, then encrypt that file with a second 4k key. The results are an effective key size of 4K^2.

If you were to take every electron on the Earth and turn it into a super computer, it would take longer than the life of the sun to break the encryption. The open source version of PGP can me modified to use keys much larger than 4k. Every bit you ad doubles the time required to break the encryption. If 256 bit encryption is thought to be unbreakable, how hard is 32 million bit encryption? Double layer it and it becomes 32 million ^2 bit encryption.

All this assumes the files are on his computer. Assuming he took the basic precautions any reasonable security professional would take, the highly encrypted files are distributed on multiple Freenet nodes or such.

Funny, but this is one of those places where maybe I am more paranoid that some others. I figure the NSA and other major security agencies in the world have got this kind of encryption beat. If they don't, then why is anybody worried about NSA surveillance, since it seems so easy to evade?
 

phalseHUD

macrumors 6502
Mar 7, 2011
280
356
Digital Sprawl
Interest?

What I find absolutely stunning is that this topic invokes such little interest (90-odd comments?!) compared with say, some same old tired story by some ANALyst about the next release of the iPhone or iPad. I know this is a rumour site but is it that unreasonable to expect folk to take an interest in a subject such as this? I am also aware of the post limitations of course.

Anyway my point, is that Apple should never have agreed to be part of this 'deal'. It is interesting that they only became part of this PRISM party a year after SJ died. I recall reading somewhere that a colleague of his at NeXT said he would rather have died than to give in to a deal like this. I can believe it too.

Apple should have stayed out of it - plain and simple. Do not follow where the path may lead...

----------

Snowden may not have intended to deliver this information to the Chinese and Russians. But the plain facts are, he did.

Apologies if I have missed the post where you have backed up these claims.
 
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Rog210

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2004
195
3
IJ Reilly quotes:

"Yes you are, because I never used the word, and did not plan to use that or any other emotionally charged word to describe what he has done. All I know is, he has been charged with espionage. Once again, I will tell you what I am thinking. You will not tell me."

It's not emotionally charged, it's the correct legal term for the crime you are accusing Edward Snowden of. Own it.

"As I actually said already (why oh why do I need to repeat everything?), Snowden may not have intended to deliver this information to the Chinese and Russians. But the plain facts are, he did. I pointed out the irony, which did not escape my notice."

Again (why do I have to repeat everything?) Evidence please. Give me these "plain facts", not links to opinion pieces.

"Evidence? You mean if a person is not hangin' with Ed Snowden then they can have no access to reason, knowledge, or logic on the subject? I note that you haven't provided a shred of evidence to back up your claim that the Russian and Chinese security services are incapable of decrypting computer files. The reason why I suspect is because the concept is so plainly laughable that it's easier to just try to change the subject."

I made no such claim, and to provide evidence for something that may, or may not, have happened, based on no inside knowledge whatsoever of foreign government's capabilities, level of encryption, or anything else, is crazy.

So we're back at square one. You're accusing Edward Snowden of treason without any proof of any kind. Back up your accusations or admit you don't have the first clue what you're talking about.
 
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phalseHUD

macrumors 6502
Mar 7, 2011
280
356
Digital Sprawl
Facts?

Apparently you did.

Well... I'd argue it is a fact he went to Hong Kong, and the transit area of Moscow (Sheremetyevo) Airport, and he has leaked information to The Guardian which both China and Russia would have access to. Anything other than that though is pure speculation and supposition. The articles in posts 84 and 86 are, in so far as I can see, opinions. Funnily enough, the article you link to in post 86 is in the 'opinions' area of the Washington Post.

I'm not wanting to argue with you, just making the point.
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
If you disbelieve that the Chinese and Russian intelligence services had their way with his computers, then you belong in the Naive Hall of Fame.

Given how easily Snowden (and Manning) got hold of their information you belong in the naive hall of fame if you don't believe the Russians and Chinese already had all this information.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
It's not emotionally charged, it's the correct legal term for the crime you are accusing Edward Snowden of. Own it.

No, it is not, and I am not "accusing" him of anything. End of discussion.

Interesting, because in my initial comment here I was responding to the question of whether anything good would come out of this incident. I thought it might, if we could have a rational discussion about the implications.

Since then nobody here has shown even the slightest inclination to listen in what I have to say, but plenty are fully prepared to tell me exactly what I believe.

So, there you go. Good luck to all of us. We're going to need it.

----------

Well... I'd argue it is a fact he went to Hong Kong, and the transit area of Moscow (Sheremetyevo) Airport, and he has leaked information to The Guardian which both China and Russia would have access to. Anything other than that though is pure speculation and supposition. The articles in posts 84 and 86 are, in so far as I can see, opinions. Funnily enough, the article you link to in post 86 is in the 'opinions' area of the Washington Post.

I'm not wanting to argue with you, just making the point.

I've heard this analysis numerous times over the past month, I have found you only two samples. These are the opinions of knowledgable people. Take them or leave them, I guess.

----------

Given how easily Snowden (and Manning) got hold of their information you belong in the naive hall of fame if you don't believe the Russians and Chinese already had all this information.

Eyes pop out in disbelief at desperate argument.
 

Rog210

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2004
195
3
Two bad results we already know about is that Snowdon delivered his stolen national security secrets directly to China and Russia. ...


... I am not "accusing" him of anything. End of discussion.

LOL

I've heard this analysis numerous times over the past month, I have found you only two samples. These are the opinions of knowledgable people. Take them or leave them, I guess.

They're opinions of columnists, they're as knowledgeable as anyone else and their opinions certainly aren't facts.

Eyes pop out in disbelief at desperate argument.

At least we can agree on that.
 
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