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martint235

macrumors 6502a
Apr 13, 2016
612
1,549
So my employer decided hybrid working consisted of 2 days working in an office. The problem is though that office could belong to a supplier or a customer so tracking via badges doesn’t work. Managers have generally taken a “don’t care so long as results remain good” attitude. I know some of my team don’t go in twice a week

Me, I changed my contract to permanent home working. Everyone in the UK has a legal right to apply for flexible working and it’s up to the employer to evidence why it won’t work eg if you’re an airline pilot.
 

russell_314

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2019
6,046
9,010
USA
Oh no you mean they are tracking their employees to make sure they’re at work when they’re paying them? How rude of Apple!

Speaking of that I need to have a talk with my boss because he’s a jerk like that too. He insists I actually show up to work and clock in like he’s my father or something. I mean look dude just pay me money and don’t worry about what I’m doing. That’s my business not his!

Just in case it didn’t come across clearly enough this is sarcasm 😂
 

timber

macrumors 65816
Aug 30, 2006
1,162
2,128
Lisbon
Oh no you mean they are tracking their employees to make sure they’re at work when they’re paying them? How rude of Apple!

Speaking of that I need to have a talk with my boss because he’s a jerk like that too. He insists I actually show up to work and clock in like he’s my father or something. I mean look dude just pay me money and don’t worry about what I’m doing. That’s my business not his!

Just in case it didn’t come across clearly enough this is sarcasm 😂
There are a lot of people that are very good at pretending to work. Sometimes it is even amazing what they could do if they used that determination to actually... well ... work.

And showing up is just very low hanging fruit. This kind of measure is like software anti piracy. It only annoys the paying customers.

Most that I know even prefer and prosper with in office. It's a lot easier to pretend to be busy, to stroll around, have meetings, to print stuff in the mourning, to move those stacks of paper from side to side and be busy shredding those in the afternoon.
 

CarAnalogy

macrumors 601
Jun 9, 2021
4,312
7,918
Even more productive: Working without interruptions

I shudder to think how unproductive I'd be if I had to go to meetings three days a week, or if people just walked in to talk face to face all the time. But sure, I'm happy to come in to the actually important meeting (every couple of weeks) when my presence actually makes a difference.

It's a silly idea that upper management knows better what work environment makes employees productive than the teams and employees themselves.

Exactly. There's not really one blanket solution here, it's almost a silly argument to have. Different things work better for different jobs, people, and companies. The important thing for management is to have the wisdom to recognize it and the courage to implement it properly.
 

quietstormSD

macrumors 65816
Mar 2, 2010
1,230
606
San Diego, CA
Unfortunately, it's the privileged tech company culture that cultivates this type of behavior where people refuse to come into the office. I work at a tech company and see/hear this all the time. Even the people that chose to be full time remote and can come into the office complain that they feel out of touch with their teams that are in the office and complain that there chances for advancement are less than people that do come in. It's like give me a friggin break.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,334
24,079
Gotta be in it to win it
Exactly. There's not really one blanket solution here, it's almost a silly argument to have. Different things work better for different jobs, people, and companies. The important thing for management is to have the wisdom to recognize it and the courage to implement it properly.
Implement what properly and according to who?
 

JM

macrumors 601
Nov 23, 2014
4,082
6,373
who decides what "normal" is?
someone originally devices that mon-fri 9-530 was "normal", but clearly even that hasn't been "normal" for many decades.

what is "normal" evolves with time. companies that fail to evolve to a new "normal" eventually realise once it's too late for them.
Well… we certainly found out what the “new” normal was over the last three years, and what its results were 🙃
 
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xpxp2002

macrumors 65816
May 3, 2016
1,160
2,734
Ironic that a company whose marketing claims that they are so concerned about their own environmental impact is unnecessarily requiring the most environmentally damaging activity we collectively do as a society.

Spring 2020 saw a 20% reduction in nitrogen dioxide in the atmosphere, in large part due to the reduction in automobile exhaust. Prior to 2020, every weekday millions of people unnecessarily burned fossil fuels to drive themselves to the building where their computer lives to do the exact same work they could have been doing from home. The COVID-19 response proved this out as a real-life case study. We invested in the infrastructure to make it possible for millions of people to work from home with access to cloud-based resources, new VPN infrastructure for legacy and on-prem resources, and internet infrastructure upgrades at nearly every major ISP. That investment still exists and can continue to serve us well.


Obviously physical labor jobs, rack-and-stack in datacenters, and retail/service roles can't be done from home. But we could be doing so much more by promoting and continuing this positive trend of keeping jobs in positions such as programming and marketing, which can be done from home, at home. Rather than packing more people like sardines into cramped office space to the degree that it requires "hot desking" or "hoteling" where multiple people get to share and touch the same mouse, keyboard, and desk on different days of the week -- which is inarguably the most baffling outcome of this worldwide pandemic -- we could and should be freeing up that office space for people who truly have work that must be done on-site somewhere. Instead of packing 8 people into a 20x20 foot half-height cubicle with no noise isolation, let the few people who need to be at the office have a real office with walls and a door, and their own chair and desk that isn't covered in bacteria and Cheeto dust from the last person who was forced to come in.

The improvement in overall employee satisfaction with work/life balance and other cost savings aside; it's a true shame and tragedy that we squandered this rare opportunity to actually make a meaningful impact toward curbing climate change by avoiding the unnecessary use of countless barrels of oil and non-renewable fossil fuels while simultaneously reducing unnecessary fuel costs for employees and wear-and-tear on our already poorly maintained roads.

It's even more sad that none of this forced "return to office" is happening out of any necessity, but merely to appease overzealous executives (who often spend 60-80% of their "work week," not in the office, but out on the golf course, anyway) and middle managers who only feel in control when they know butts are in their company's assigned chairs. The tools exist to collaborate and work remotely -- it has been proven for the past 3+ years. The tools exist to assess and monitor productivity -- even if it might be viewed as invasive, it can be done.

There are no excuses for this societal regression. It's wasteful and selfish. It's deteriorating quality of life for workers, costing us untold expenses in unnecessary wear-and-tear on our roads (that we then get to pay for with higher taxes), and destroying the environment just so that a small minority of business owners can feel placated with the unhealthy control that they desire, even when work-from-home would save them money and help them retain good talent.
 

russell_314

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2019
6,046
9,010
USA
There are a lot of people that are very good at pretending to work. Sometimes it is even amazing what they could do if they used that determination to actually... well ... work.

And showing up is just very low hanging fruit. This kind of measure is like software anti piracy. It only annoys the paying customers.

Most that I know even prefer and prosper with in office. It's a lot easier to pretend to be busy, to stroll around, have meetings, to print stuff in the mourning, to move those stacks of paper from side to side and be busy shredding those in the afternoon.
Of course, there are people at every job that will do the least possible effort, if any. That doesn’t mean bosses are going to be like oh it’s OK. I trust you just do what you do and I’ll go sit in my office. I’m sure the higher up you go and the longer you’ve been with a company the more rope they give you, but it’s not going to be for everyone.
 

MNGR

Contributor
Sep 17, 2019
305
418
says who? you have proven evidence to back your claim up i presume?

i can tell you that being in the office was a physical distraction due to people always coming up to ask you a question, stopping your thought process in what you were actually doing.
Not for me. Sharing ideas was always helpful
 

MNGR

Contributor
Sep 17, 2019
305
418
Recent studies in Australia and the UK show that 4 days a week (32 hours) is more productive and better value. Even paying the full 40-hour pay. And that's generally for people going into the office, not skiving off at home!
I never had 32 hrs/week. More like 60 or 65. For years. And the work could not be performed from home. Networks were not connected to the internet.
I got paid for the work performed not the hours.
 
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mcfrazieriv

macrumors 65816
Jan 30, 2012
1,110
2,845
Simply just a way to remain in power. Tim Cook and the rest of the C level execs are still attending banquets, lunches, business travel, treating other C levels to activities... A** in seats is simply a way to keep those that have something safe from those who don't.

The reality is that most people DO work and SHOULD be trusted. If they don't work, fire them. From home or from the office, people will only show you as much as they want to as far as personality. This idea that corporate culture comes from anything other than pay and freedom is BS. Nobody wants a pizza party. Everyone wants a bonus for doing good work. Those that disagree with this are either middle managers or insane.
 

pdoherty

macrumors 65816
Dec 30, 2014
1,433
1,693
I work in an office that never closed for covid. We remained open throughout as we service a vital need.

Our entire team was dumbfounded by the attitudes of other industries who stayed closed or continued to work from home well into 2022; as if this attitude didn’t further reduce economic output. While some may have been a bit jealous for some time off, it feels good to accomplish when the work is meaningful.
But that’s wrong - output actually increased during the pandemic.


As a result, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP surpassed its pre-recession peak in the second quarter of 2021, just one year after the trough of the recession. Also, the gap between actual GDP and the Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) May 2022 estimate of potential GDP — the high-employment, maximum sustainable level of GDP — was erased briefly in the fourth quarter of 2021, when GDP grew at a robust 7.0 percent annual rate.
 
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maxoakland

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2021
761
1,087
Where is the data specifically showing working at Apple Park, designed to foster collaboration, is less productive than having employees and teams physically segregated from each other at home?
There’s plenty of data showing that people are more productive when they work from home. I’m guessing you know that so you’re trying to move the goalposts as if Apple Park is some magical place that collaboration just shines

Despite the fact that Apple is the most secretive company on the planet and many teams don’t even know what some teams are working on, let alone being able to discuss them around the magical water cooler you seem to be imagining
 

Someyoungguy

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2012
553
988
What's weird to me is that they only need to tell the managers to enforce this, not do the Big Brother badge stuff. Where I worked we certainly had badge readers, but as a manager I was required to make sure all my employees complied with any rules, didn't abuse sick leave, etc. The badge stuff just strikes a needless dystopian, distrustful note with employees and managers.
 

fromgophonetoiphone

macrumors regular
Dec 6, 2017
196
290
I never had 32 hrs/week. More like 60 or 65. For years. And the work could not be performed from home. Networks were not connected to the internet.
I got paid for the work performed not the hours.
There's a reason top tech companies are not in Europe and instead in the US. China is rising fast and guess what? It's 996 culture there. Slackers aren't going to win this one, and yes you can blame capitalism, but the companies that push harder will come out on top. Look at this list of companies and their HQ countries.

Edit: that list used to be even more dramatic looking. I remember the old Wikipedia layout had flags for country of origin. It was basically a column of US flags except for 1x Germany and 1x France
 
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nylonsteel

macrumors 68000
Nov 5, 2010
1,554
491
expensive spaceship should be filled with the expensive employees
collaborating with eachother
to create things that are "insanely great"
 

fromgophonetoiphone

macrumors regular
Dec 6, 2017
196
290
But that’s wrong - output actually increased during the pandemic.
GDP increased but that's not simply a result of worker output only. You have to realize entire purchasing and trends shifted in the pandemic. Let's just think about it this way. People bought homes like crazy. With new homes comes contractor and renovation demand. People were at home more and noticed appliances not behaving like they should. There are studies showing people spent more on appliances during the early phases of the pandemic. "Oh my dishwasher whines? I never notice that because I just run it and go to bed. I guess since I'm at home now let's get it replaced."

You saw this first hand with supply chain hiccups. People bought more workout equipment. People subscribed to streaming services then canceled like crazy in mid / late 2022. The economy fundamentally changed and it's not simply because people sitting at home drove more output.

Because of remote schooling there was HUGE demand for Chromebooks and iPads which drove huge revenue to tech companies. Apple obviously benefited. Your link says nothing about worker output, and my whole point was that there's a lot more that happened in 2020 - 2022 than simply people working at home.
 
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russell_314

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2019
6,046
9,010
USA
Simply just a way to remain in power. Tim Cook and the rest of the C level execs are still attending banquets, lunches, business travel, treating other C levels to activities... A** in seats is simply a way to keep those that have something safe from those who don't.

The reality is that most people DO work and SHOULD be trusted. If they don't work, fire them. From home or from the office, people will only show you as much as they want to as far as personality. This idea that corporate culture comes from anything other than pay and freedom is BS. Nobody wants a pizza party. Everyone wants a bonus for doing good work. Those that disagree with this are either middle managers or insane.
Of course Tim Cook and the exacts are attending banquets. I bet they have $100k+ cars too. If you can keep a billion dollar company profitable, you can have that too.


As to trusting workers sure, but that doesn’t mean you don’t verify. It’s not blind trust. It’s called trust but verify. If someone is in a management position and they’re too lazy to verify the work is being done, then that’s a quick way to lose a management position.

People say they don’t want pizza parties, but they have been and will continue to be a thing because they’re effective at boosting morale. I personally think they’re stupid but my opinion isn’t going to matter.

Bonuses are a good thing, but only if they’re directly related to really specific jobs the employee is involved in. For example, a sales bonus for the guy writing code on iOS isn't going to make him do any better. Now a sales bonus to the guy in charge of sales, then that’s great.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,334
24,079
Gotta be in it to win it
Ironic that a company whose marketing claims that they are so concerned about their own environmental impact is unnecessarily requiring the most environmentally damaging activity we collectively do as a society.
That’s just spin. A company can be green, carbon neutral and still need its employees on-site.

Spring 2020 saw a 20% reduction in nitrogen dioxide in the atmosphere, in large part due to the reduction in automobile exhaust. Prior to 2020, every weekday millions of people unnecessarily burned fossil fuels to drive themselves to the building where their computer lives to do the exact same work they could have been doing from home. The COVID-19 response proved this out as a real-life case study. We invested in the infrastructure to make it possible for millions of people to work from home with access to cloud-based resources, new VPN infrastructure for legacy and on-prem resources, and internet infrastructure upgrades at nearly every major ISP. That investment still exists and can continue to serve us well.
And many companies survived. But with reduced efficiencies. The government was printing money at that that time so it made it seem the pandemic was a panecea.

Obviously physical labor jobs, rack-and-stack in datacenters, and retail/service roles can't be done from home. But we could be doing so much more by promoting and continuing this positive trend of keeping jobs in positions such as programming and marketing, which can be done from home, at home.
In your opinion only can all jobs be done at home.
Rather than packing more people like sardines into cramped office space to the degree that it requires "hot desking" or "hoteling" where multiple people get to share and touch the same mouse, keyboard, and desk on different days of the week -- which is inarguably the most baffling outcome of this worldwide pandemic -- we could and should be freeing up that office space for people who truly have work that must be done on-site somewhere.
Who is making this determination? Are you?
Instead of packing 8 people into a 20x20 foot half-height cubicle with no noise isolation, let the few people who need to be at the office have a real office with walls and a door, and their own chair and desk that isn't covered in bacteria and Cheeto dust from the last person who was forced to come in.
This gets a haha. While I’m sure some people work in cramped quarters, others don’t.
The improvement in overall employee satisfaction with work/life balance and other cost savings aside; it's a true shame and tragedy that we squandered this rare opportunity to actually make a meaningful impact toward curbing climate change by avoiding the unnecessary use of countless barrels of oil and non-renewable fossil fuels while simultaneously reducing unnecessary fuel costs for employees and wear-and-tear on our already poorly maintained roads.
And additionally making companies more efficient as determined by management, not MR posters.
It's even more sad that none of this forced "return to office" is happening out of any necessity, but merely to appease overzealous executives (who often spend 60-80% of their "work week," not in the office, but out on the golf course, anyway) and middle managers who only feel in control when they know butts are in their company's assigned chairs.
Sounds like a good meme.
The tools exist to collaborate and work remotely -- it has been proven for the past 3+ years. The tools exist to assess and monitor productivity -- even if it might be viewed as invasive, it can be done.
Yes, in some cases these tools work in some cases they don’t. Remote work is not a prescriptive it’s an option as mgmt. provides it.

There are no excuses for this societal regression.
No excuses, just the reality that companies function better when people are collaborating face to face.
It's wasteful and selfish.
In your opinion.
It's deteriorating quality of life for workers, costing us untold expenses in unnecessary wear-and-tear on our roads (that we then get to pay for with higher taxes), and destroying the environment just so that a small minority of business owners can feel placated with the unhealthy control that they desire, even when work-from-home would save them money and help them retain good talent.
Then said workers should show mgmt by resigning and finding their dream jobs. Oh wait, there were just thousands of layoffs in tech.
 
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