Apple’s DMA malicious compliance explained.

[cupcakes2000]

For better or worse, Apple has shown their hand as the sort of company they are. They are absolutely shameless in stifling any potential threat to their revenue streams, which in turn stifles opportunity for innovation in iOS (Apple Silicon aside). If nothing else, the DMA has put a spotlight on the wide variety of ways a platform holder can undermine its commercial competitors e.g. privileged APIs, punitive contractual terms and so on.

Whether Apple successfully stymies the DMA or not, their actions have heaped fuel on the fire of Apple's dissenters. Whereas grumbles about Apple can often just be dismissed as whinging about their prices, Apple's actions over the DMA provide more substantive reason to consider leaving their ecosystem. Buying their products ultimately endorses their behaviour, and it's certainly giving me pause.

They are proving the EU’s point somewhat.

 

[mode11]

They are proving the EU’s point somewhat.

Yeah, as the article says "Their willingness to pursue these proposals, despite presumably being aware how unpopular they would be, is itself a striking example of market power."

 

[icanhazmac]

Apple's actions over the DMA provide more substantive reason to consider leaving their ecosystem. Buying their products ultimately endorses their behaviour, and it's certainly giving me pause.

Finally a comment that makes sense. Let the market decide. Vote with your wallet and buy an Android.

If Apple is too restrictive, folks like yourself will leave, if there are enough of you then change will occur. If no one leaves then Apple's approach is valued by their customer base. Really simple concept.

 

[haunt]

Entrenchment and all that.

 

[mode11]

Finally a comment that makes sense. Let the market decide. Vote with your wallet and buy an Android.

If Apple is too restrictive, folks like yourself will leave, if there are enough of you then change will occur. If no one leaves then Apple's approach is valued by their customer base. Really simple concept.

Yeah, and if a Democrat disagrees with Biden's stance on something, they can just vote Republican instead. Really simple concept.

Only it isn't, because whether you choose option A or option B - like politics, there are only two mobile platforms - comes down to a balance of many issues. Ideally, you'd want 'your side' to do better. Though like politics, there are a lot of people who are simply loyal to a fault to their own tribe.

Whether one uses iOS or Android is not a simple vote on single app stores vs multiple app stores. It comes down to many factors e.g. integration with the Mac / PC, UI preference, hardware design, whether the platform owner mines all your data, etc.

Every iOS owner should want what's best for themselves, and not simply cheerlead every decision Apple makes, just because they're a proud Apple user. I have no regrets about moving to Windows 11 from the Mac for my primary desktop, but given my phone usage is just typical / basic stuff, and I dislike Google's data mining, I hadn't considered moving from iOS. I couldn't care less about phone app stores, but Apple's attitude in this area and others (e.g. repairability) is pushing me away, in a way that would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

 

[icanhazmac]

Again, entrenchment and all that. Attempted lock-in of a billion+ people. Some savvy like ourselves that have already moved. Most not. They could get around to it, but what a bother (and expense!)

Two things:

The concept of "lock-in" is comical. My phone, laptop, watch, tablet, earphones and TV boxes are all Apple. IF I found a good enough reason I could bail tomorrow, easily. Even if I had to do it a device at a time it wouldn't hurt that much and honestly the only 2 that would kind hurt if you couldn't swap them at the same time are the phone and watch.

Considering yourself more "savvy" because you moved on is also comical. Needing to belittle those who think differently from you or value things you don't lessens any valid points you might have, try harder.

Yeah, and if a Democrat disagrees with Biden's stance on something, they can just vote Republican instead. Really simple concept.

Yes, it is that easy, or you can help spearhead a movement into 3rd party candidates. It will be hard, there will be tough times but in the end that is the only way you can make changes within your "tribe". Politics or devices, same concept.

Every iOS owner should want what's best for themselves, and not simply cheerlead every decision Apple makes

Again this concept of anyone who thinks differently is a fanboi or a sheep. Some of us simply value the ecosystem the way it is and bought into it with open eyes and any limitations it has are simply not important enough to us to leave. If Apple's practices are touching you in your no-no place then leave, let the market decide. Will you need to use Google crap for a while? Yes, but that is the best way to enact change versus relying on brainless bureaucrats to do it for you. One day those power hungry idiots will come for something you like.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Even if I had to do it a device at a time it wouldn't hurt that much

I suggest you actually try that before being so blasé about it. Even getting your notes out of the notes app is a task worthy of banging your head against the wall. It’s actually impossible to do so they remain as they looked in notes. Now try it with photos. Then wrap your head around iCloud. Don’t worry if that only took you a month, there’s much more to go. Shall we tackle iTunes purchases?
You haven’t tried, because no matter how loyal an Apple fan you were, you wouldn’t imply that it was easy, not in the slightest.

 

[mode11]

Yes, it is that easy, or you can help spearhead a movement into 3rd party candidates. It will be hard, there will be tough times but in the end that is the only way you can make changes within your "tribe". Politics or devices, same concept.

Great, let's change the world.

Yes, but that is the best way to enact change versus relying on brainless bureaucrats to do it for you. One day those power hungry idiots will come for something you like.

Oh, apparently the political process isn't useful for anything.

 

[haunt]

I was complimenting you.

 

[dk001]

Two things:

The concept of "lock-in" is comical. My phone, laptop, watch, tablet, earphones and TV boxes are all Apple. IF I found a good enough reason I could bail tomorrow, easily. Even if I had to do it a device at a time it wouldn't hurt that much and honestly the only 2 that would kind hurt if you couldn't swap them at the same time are the phone and watch.

…

Migrating from platform A to B is a rare event. Most don’t want to be bothered and go through the hassle of setting everything back up, not that Apple makes it easy; they don’t. Then there is the other group, and they overlap, that cannot afford to do this. Something that Apple counts on.

Those of us who have or are, we are in the minority.

 

[mode11]

Migrating from platform A to B is a rare event. Most don’t want to be bothered and go through the hassle of setting everything back up, not that Apple makes it easy; they don’t. Then there is the other group, and they overlap, that cannot afford to do this. Something that Apple counts on.

Those of us who have or are, we are in the minority.

Yeah, it's totally disingenuous. Plus, he'd have to find a new identity too. IcanhazLinux?

It's like politics in the sense that building a new smartphone platform at this point is like creating a new mainstream political party. Possible? Sure, theoretically, but extremely unlikely. Which means your 'power' is to simply go from one side to the other. Whereupon someone called IcanhazAndroid would no doubt be telling you on a different forum that choosing Android meant you were 100% cool with giving Google all your data forever. And if you don't like it, you can buy an iPhone.

 

[icanhazmac]

I was actually trying to compliment you as savvy, basically this whole group discussing this. Um, sorry about that.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your comment. Many in this debate label people in a derogatory way if they disagree with the DMA.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It's a little bit different in the US. You actually do own the condominium or house, but you agree the follow the rules of the HOA as a condition of the contract to buy, which includes the payment of dues and fines for violating regulations. If you fail to pay such dues and fines, depending on the jurisdiction, a lien can be placed against the house and in some jurisdiction foreclose on the property for unpaid assessments. It is a good reason not to buy a house within an HOA.

Even in communities which don't have HOAs, there can be CC&Rs attached to ownership which express conditions which much be abided. Such conditions can be as trivial as not parking on your driveway to restrictions on the sale of your property. The CC&Rs for many homes in the US, at one time, often forbade sales to people of color. Such covenants have been found illegal to enforce, but they remain in the documents covering the sale and purchase of houses.

That’s very interesting considering a CC&R or a HOa as part of a purchase where ownership is transferred would never be allowed.

Covenants, conditions, and restrictions (CC&Rs) describe what you can and can't do with your home. For example, the CC&Rs might limit what color you can paint your house, prohibit you from leaving your laundry out to dry, or describe what type of mailbox you may install.

Such a thing aren’t legally applicable. For example if I purchased a new house in a neighborhood three will be zero conditions for it, and in the same way if I sold it there can’t be any conditions on me for how I sell it.

These are seen as fundamental breach of private property rights. Calling it a purchase or ownership would be laughable. The only one who could put such restrictions are the state in the form of parking on the street or painting the house.

Some things the state would require you to ask your next door neighbor for their permission if it’s a dramatic change that have a measurable impact

Mitigating this, of course, is that no one is forced to buy a house if they don't like the CC&Rs or the HOA, just as no one is forced to buy an iPhone. Sales of smartphones in Europe confirm that fact as there are twice as many android phones in the EU as there are iOS phones.

And perhaps this makes it more clear, restricting your rights in how your devices is used is equally absurd and strange if you would do that with your house.

Your house is your property alongside everything inside it including the land it’s built on and the same goes for the phone you bought and everything else inside it.

"Se above and use other software if you value their services only through the AppStore"


LOL, that's funny.

The person who gets mad when people tell him to buy an Android to fix his alt-store fixation tells me to use other apps if the ones I like leave the Apple App store.

Hypocrite much?

Well can’t you actually identify the hypocrisy on your side?

You have two scenarios with the exact same result to the end user “you”. The developer stops providing their app in the iOS AppStore and you no longer have access to it.

1. You think it’s okey if the app isn’t available anymore on iOS and only available on alternative stores on android and you should obviously get android if it’s so important to you etc etc
   • as the normal deflection goes. Developer freedom, user freedom and apple’s freedom is maintained, with the small conundrum of potentially getting a new android device.
2. But it’s not okey for some odd reason when the same developer pulls their app from the AppStore and chooses to only have it available on alternative stores on android…. AND other store alternatives on iOS as well.
   • Now when the freedom is still maintained but with the only difference that the you don’t need to get a new android device, you could just get another iOS device if you don’t want it on your main device

Why should the developer only be free to leave the platform completely instead of using another store?

How am I a hypocrite? If an app isn’t available or removed from the AppStore you have always had to replace it with an alternative application, that reality haven’t changed. And with side loading this fundamental reality will be exactly the same.

 

[icanhazmac]

I suggest you actually try that before being so blasé about it. Even getting your notes out of the notes app is a task worthy of banging your head against the wall. It’s actually impossible to do so they remain as they looked in notes. Now try it with photos. Then wrap your head around iCloud. Don’t worry if that only took you a month, there’s much more to go. Shall we tackle iTunes purchases?
You haven’t tried, because no matter how loyal an Apple fan you were, you wouldn’t imply that it was easy, not in the slightest.

1) I cannot speak to how you use notes but I just don't have that many, I probably have less than 20, none are critical to my life.
2) Photos - I routinely move photos off to my NAS, fairly easy. As I never played with Android I cannot speak to how hard it would be to bring them into those devices.
3) iCloud... as in iCloud drive? I have backups, rather easy as well.
4) iTunes purchases - Probably the most difficult. Thankfully I hardly have any as I buy physical media and rip. I think I have 1 music CD and 3 movies purchased through iTunes. If I had a good enough reason to leave Apple I couldn't care less about those.
5) I thought the big issues was prying your texting capability out of iMessage, I have heard that is trying but never really looked into it.

I acknowledge that I have the background to do these things easier than the average person but I still stand by the fact that even a n00b can switch ecosystems with the proper amount of planning and research.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=switching+from+ios+to+android

Yeah, it's totally disingenuous.

No, it is not. One only needs a good enough reason to do it.

Plus, he'd have to find a new identity too. IcanhazLinux?

Cute, but I already have Linux... Windows too.

 

[haunt]

There are more aspects.

 

[mode11]

There are more sinister aspects lurking, like Sign in with Apple, Apple Card, app store purchases, having HomePods, AirTags, or Apple Watches. Switching over all your third party accounts from iCloud email, and possibly 2FA code regeneration. It qualifies as an ordeal, and may even have showstoppers (Sign in with Apple is especially devious).

Can confirm having switched to Windows last summer that it was a massive pain in the arse. The biggest issue was finding high quality replacements for all the apps, first party and otherwise, that I had accumulated on the Mac over the years.

It took a while but got there in the end and was well worth it. Windows 11 is nice. Was able to consolidate a bunch of machines into one, along with the backup media for each; even sold my games console as I can just stream PC games in 4K to my TV now over Moonlight. Had previously been using a Mac Pro 5,1, but Apple's essentially given up on that market so had to move on. My main use case is 3D.

I still use Photos on the MBP, as I haven't got round to deciding if I want to migrate away from that yet. If I do, I'll likely use Avalanche to convert my library to e.g. Lightroom Classic (I already have an Adobe sub). TBH, I'm not in a rush as it gives the Mac something to do (when it isn't streaming 3D apps from the PC using Parsec).

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Why shouldn't Apple be able to decide not to sell apps that promote illegal drug use? Seems reasonable to me. To be clear, they were obviously wrong in this case.
You got that backwards. Apple decreed only one app store may exist, and then 1.5 billion people moved in because they liked the setup.

Well illegal content isn’t illegal everywhere in the world.

So Apple is just the modern corporate towns where one company owns everything and everyone pays taxes to them, and only way to get other options is to literally move to another town…

Could explain a lot considering how Europe doesn’t look that favorable on such a concept. Hell Walmart was ruled as resent as 2023 for paying their employees in wallmart money that can be spent only in their store… 😅

Finally a comment that makes sense. Let the market decide. Vote with your wallet and buy an Android.

If Apple is too restrictive, folks like yourself will leave, if there are enough of you then change will occur. If no one leaves then Apple's approach is valued by their customer base. Really simple concept.

Well what to do if you like apple’s privacy but hates their controlling nature? And you love googles side loading ability but hates their stalking obsession?

Perhaps that’s why in Europe we have parliaments so we never actually need to chose between two bad options. Perhaps the USA need to have more than 2 parties by dismantling the anti competitive system they have implemented to ensure they always stay in power

Finally a comment that makes sense. Let the market decide. Vote with your wallet and buy an Android.

If Apple is too restrictive, folks like yourself will leave, if there are enough of you then change will occur. If no one leaves then Apple's approach is valued by their customer base. Really simple concept.

exactly, vote with your wallet and purchase only in the AppStore.

If the developer doesn't want their apps to be available from AppStore, folks like yourself will not get their app, if there are enough of you then the developers will return to the AppStore. If users don’t care if they are in the AppStore then developers approach is valued by their customer base. Really simple concept.

Glad you agree 😁

 

[icanhazmac]

Glad you agree 😁

I do not agree and your constant snark doesn't help your argument.

Well what to do if you like apple’s privacy but hates their controlling nature? And you love googles side loading ability but hates their stalking obsession?

"You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes
Well, you just might find
You get what you need"

If you get what you want, the only one stop shop, walled-garden ecosystem sadly ceases to exist. It is nice to have a choice for the ecosystem you would like to be part of instead of every single digital space being like PC/Mac.

If things stay the way they are you, get your side loading with Android but just need to work a little harder to protect your personal data, isn't that supposed to be easier in the EU?

Are you on the Android boards badgering them to stop stalking? Seems like that would be a good use of time. If you think stalking is bad now just wait until apps leave the Apple store and never provide privacy scorecards again.

 

[icanhazmac]

There are more sinister aspects lurking, like Sign in with Apple, Apple Card, app store purchases, having HomePods, AirTags, or Apple Watches. Switching over all your third party accounts from iCloud email, and possibly 2FA code regeneration. It qualifies as an ordeal, and may even have showstoppers (Sign in with Apple is especially devious).

If you don't feel comfortable with those particular services or devices don't use them.

I don't use Sign in with Apple, don't have an Apple Card, no Homepods or Airtags... I do have the watch.

Itunes - This is why I don't buy much from there, I buy physical media, then I own it regardless of what platform I want to use it on. You are only as ecosystem "trapped" as you allow yourself to become.

 

[mode11]

If you get what you want, the only one stop shop, walled-garden ecosystem sadly ceases to exist.

I'll pour one out for Apple's bank account.

It's not like your Apple Watch, iPhone and AirPods will stop working with each other. Or that 99.9% of apps won't still be available in Apple's App Store - unless another app store can offer a much better deal all round, and Apple somehow can't compete. Which is unlikely, given their massive advantages. And if you'd prefer to do without console emulators, or to purchase Kindle books via a web browser, you can carry on as before.

All the doom mongering is just Apple FUD to convince you that it's somehow in your interests to let them retain complete control of everything.

 

[icanhazmac]

Or that 99.9% of apps won't still be available in Apple's App Store - unless another app store can offer a much better deal all round, and Apple somehow can't compete.

I beg to differ. The store will fragment. All big names will either open stores (Steam, Epic, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, etc) or potentially just be available via their own web site. The big names will further fragment the experience by offering exclusive distribution to other devs. Think about how the Mac app store is right now. It is all click and traffic driven, y'all act like Apple is the bad guy, wait till you can't get any games from anywhere besides Steam or Epic, you think they aren't profit driven??

All the doom mongering is just Apple FUD to convince you that it's somehow in your interests to let them retain complete control of everything.

Again, wrong and condescending. The savvy can handle a change from iOS one stop shop to the world of PC/Mac but explain to your parents/grandparents or non-techie friends that they can't get updates to their favorite game any longer because the app moved to the Steam store and now they need to download the Steam store app from the Steam web site, create an account, etc, etc.

 

[haunt]

Consider both scenarios.

 

[mode11]

I beg to differ. The store will fragment. All big names will either open stores (Steam, Epic, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, etc) or potentially just be available via their own web site.

Just like on Android? Oh, wait.

The big names will further fragment the experience by offering exclusive distribution to other devs. Think about how the Mac app store is right now. It is all click and traffic driven, y'all act like Apple is the bad guy, wait till you can't get any games from anywhere besides Steam or Epic, you think they aren't profit driven??

I already get all my games from Steam, and have no problem with them being profit driven. But part of what keeps them 'honest' is competition from GOG and the rest. If they had no competition, I'd imagine their deals wouldn't be quite as sharp.

Again, wrong and condescending. The savvy can handle a change from iOS one stop shop to the world of PC/Mac but explain to your parents/grandparents or non-techie friends that they can't get updates to their favorite game any longer because the app moved to the Steam store and now they need to download the Steam store app from the Steam web site, create an account, etc, etc.

Fair enough. I'll be sure to help grandma out when she can't get an update for Fortnite. I'd imagine that most other gamers can handle the complexity of Steam though.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I beg to differ. The store will fragment. All big names will either open stores (Steam, Epic, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, etc) or potentially just be available via their own web site. The big names will further fragment the experience by offering exclusive distribution to other devs. Think about how the Mac app store is right now. It is all click and traffic driven, y'all act like Apple is the bad guy, wait till you can't get any games from anywhere besides Steam or Epic, you think they aren't profit driven??



Again, wrong and condescending. The savvy can handle a change from iOS one stop shop to the world of PC/Mac but explain to your parents/grandparents or non-techie friends that they can't get updates to their favorite game any longer because the app moved to the Steam store and now they need to download the Steam store app from the Steam web site, create an account, etc, etc.

So frightened!

Go and have a look at Android. Most - if not everything is available on the play store. The only things that are are stuff that they don’t let on the play store, or stuff that values freedom as in floss.
Go and check out stores like fdroid.. all the ‘scorecards’ are all there still - actually they had them before Apple did.

There is really no need to be so worried about it all. The safety and security iOS exists mainly due to the OS annd how it deals with things - and not the AppStore predominantly. I assume you’re already prudent and don’t download stuff willynilly now, so in fact nothing changes.

The big names won’t leave the AppStore unless they have a bone to pick, or Apple don’t allow what they provide. Meta may leave, but I’ll bet your bottom dollar that they’ll still maintain an AppStore presence. Obviously.

 

[icanhazmac]

Go and have a look at Android. Most - if not everything is available on the play store.

Just like on Android? Oh, wait.

JFC, see post #77, point #2. Why spend the time and money to open a mobile store for only a portion of the market?

I guess y'all are the only ones with any valid points and concerns, everyone else is a scared sheep. Why you all rely on that veiled insult instead of just discussing the topic is beyond me. You also gotta love people that use the laughing emoji in a derogatory way, thanks for the +1 though.

As long as you get your precious side loaded emulators F everyone else.